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Open racism is ok if it's for the progressive cause.
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Silentcorner wrote: »What a load of nonsense, any one can claim they don't have enough cash or confidence, or that the culture lends itself to political dynasties or whatever, with the exception of childcare, which to be fair would only affect young mothers, that list is a joke....
What do you expect to get with a 50/50 gender representation, are there rights men have currently that women don't have?
Men and women face different challenges in life. Men face issues like a high suicide rate, and historically biased family courts. Women face issues like being kept out of the workplace due to the cost of childcare, lenient sentences and low conviction rates for sexual assault. (This isn’t an exhaustive list - and yes, suicide also effects women and sexual assault also effects men)
Men are currently vastly over represented in the Dáil and Senate. Women are underrepresented.
I believe that a more balanced Oireachtas would probably make law that is more beneficial for society on the whole; would be quicker to introduce family friendly policies etc.
Why does the idea of improving female participation in politics get your back up?0 -
That is quite simply not true. It annoys me that you express your opinion with such confidence while being totally and utterly wrong.
There are additional barriers for women.
These were identified in a Joint Oireachtas Report in 2013 and are known as the “5 C’s”:
- Candidate selection
- Cash
- Childcare
- Culture
- Confidence
https://m.independent.ie/lifestyle/the-five-cs-in-womens-way-29207130.html
I get that you’re not a feminist and you think everything is grand, but it’s heartbreaking and deeply frustrating that you’re so actively against women who want more representation (because 22% is a pretty poor showing)
No need to be heart broken about someone elses opinion. We are all entitled to those.
I am a feminist. Always have been. And I am a maninist. I'm an egalitarian.
The 5 C's written up by a committee or funded group called women for election is just the kind of document one would expect from such a group - catchy alliterative points, making a problem where there is none, or at least a minimal problem. It justifies their raison d'etre, the nice grants they get from the Quakers to be movers and shakers. (Poetry alert!)
Michelle O Donnell Keating says - "We've found that women are interested but unsure how to get involved in political life.''
This confuses me. Did these unsure women never see the tables on fresher's day where young fine gael or youth labour or the Marxists or whatever were recruiting for members? Can they not read newspapers? Attend local meetings? Approach comhairles, just like the men must do? Are they helpless? Are women really so lacking in confidence compared to men? What has made them so unsure? Baffling. None of the women I know are unsure. I always knew how one could become a politician, it is not an arcane science - indeed I was approached by the Green Party many moons ago, but I had zero interest in public life.
But not to worry, there will be an increase in women in politics because of the activities of non-profits such as these, fine, let it happen. There is no reason why it should not have happened by now or before now - but if people need well-funded coffee morning booster programs and power point pep talks to give them the get up and go, who am I to stand in their way?0 -
Of course there are women's issues and men's issues. What was the abortion referendum about only a woman's right to choose? What about things like sexual harassment on the street or in the workplace? What about issues like domestic violence (yes I know it's not limited to women but the forms and severity often differ)? What about unaffordable childcare keeping women out of the workplace?
There's loads of issues that affect women because they are women.
Hopefully all those issues affect humans, men and women, because we live alongside each other and what affects her affects him and vice versa. How have we managed to become so progressive with ..... mostly men in power? I don't care if it's a man or a woman - honestly don't. Do the job or don't.0 -
There was some newly elected councillor on the news today saying she brought her kids to a meeting already..
Well, I judged her, to be honest..0 -
How does this related to TDs? Surely being a TD is a "people" thing rather than an "object" thing?
I believe this is where society overrules biology.
Except there's 85 countries that have greater female representation than Ireland. Including some where women outnumber the men. And historically women were denied the right to vote and the right to sit in parliaments. So If we look back through history we see pretty much zero representation for most of time. And weirdly the same reasons you've given were the reasons given as to why women couldn't vote or sit for parliament.
The evidence against your argument is that there's loads of women who are representing their countries, just not here.
So why not here? Why not here when there's a greater proportion of women who represented their country in nearly every other european country as well as Iraq, Somalia etc... What makes Ireland different to the other 85 countries.
Here's the numbers.
http://archive.ipu.org/wmn-e/classif.htm0 -
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No need to be heart broken about someone elses opinion. We are all entitled to those.
I am a feminist. Always have been. And I am a maninist. I'm an egalitarian.
The 5 C's written up by a committee or funded group called women for election is just the kind of document one would expect from such a group - catchy alliterative points, making a problem where there is none, or at least a minimal problem. It justifies their raison d'etre, the nice grants they get from the Quakers to be movers and shakers. (Poetry alert!)
Michelle O Donnell Keating says - "We've found that women are interested but unsure how to get involved in political life.''
This confuses me. Did these unsure women never see the tables on fresher's day where young fine gael or youth labour or the Marxists or whatever were recruiting for members? Can they not read newspapers? Attend local meetings? Approach comhairles, just like the men must do? Are they helpless? Are women really so lacking in confidence compared to men? What has made them so unsure? Baffling. None of the women I know are unsure. I always knew how one could become a politician, it is not an arcane science - indeed I was approached by the Green Party many moons ago, but I had zero interest in public life.
But not to worry, there will be an increase in women in politics because of the activities of non-profits such as these, fine, let it happen. There is no reason why it should not have happened by now or before now - but if people need well-funded coffee morning booster programs and power point pep talks to give them the get up and go, who am I to stand in their way?
I notice that you dismissed the report based on the fact that they used some alliteration and then completely ignored the substantive points made in it?
E.g. Childcare: The Dáil regularly has late sittings that go on into the night even though there is no actual need for them to do this. A simple policy change of “outside of emergencies we never sit after 8pm” would be beneficial to parents.
Confidence/Culture: Not everybody went to college Zorya, and of those that did, not everyone was interested in politics at 19. If you’re trying to get into politics at 36 and 70% of your local TDs and Councillors (as well as the party membership) are male, that can be intimidating. If it wouldn’t intimidate you, good for you. Why are you against any attempt to make politics more accessible for women?
Candidate selection: Do some research on affinity bias.
Ultimately if you’re happy with just 1 in 5 politicians being female, grand I guess. You’re entitled to hold that opinion. But when you actively oppose attempts by others to do better, it is upsetting for people who care deeply about this stuff.0 -
Men and women face different challenges in life. Men face issues like a high suicide rate, and historically biased family courts. Women face issues like being kept out of the workplace due to the cost of childcare, lenient sentences and low conviction rates for sexual assault. (This isn’t an exhaustive list - and yes, suicide also effects women and sexual assault also effects men)
Men are currently vastly over represented in the Dáil and Senate. Women are underrepresented.
I believe that a more balanced Oireachtas would probably make law that is more beneficial for society on the whole; would be quicker to introduce family friendly policies etc.
Why does the idea of improving female participation in politics get your back up?
Improving female participation doesn't bother me at all, gender quotas however are undemocratic.
I have no trust in the figures and studies from The Womens Council, they along with like minded groups across the developed world have being systematically misrepresenting statistics in relation to the gender gap, sexual violence, domestic violence, etc, the goalposts relating to so called inequality keep moving, there is a very serious consequence to misrepresenting statistics especially when you influence government policy, which is why The Womens Council Exists.
You can have The Womens Council or gender quotas, but it is very very wrong to have both!0 -
Silentcorner wrote: »What a load of nonsense, any one can claim they don't have enough cash or confidence, or that the culture lends itself to political dynasties or whatever, with the exception of childcare, which to be fair would only affect young mothers, that list is a joke....
What do you expect to get with a 50/50 gender representation, are there rights men have currently that women don't have?
Actually single female parents are disproportionately affected by poverty and austerity.
https://www.irishtimes.com/business/personal-finance/austerity-budgets-hit-lone-parents-hardest-esri-1.3673269Women bore the brunt of Government decisions to cut welfare payments during the austerity years new research shows, with stay-at-home mothers and low-income earners faring the worst.
According to new research from the Economic and Social Research Institute (ESRI), funded by the Parliamentary Budget Office (PBO), successive budgets since 2008 have had a greater impact on diminishing women’s disposable incomes when compared with men.
The study found that gender differences were most pronounced during the austerity budgets (2008-2012), but that subsequent budgets have meted out their impact with a more even hand across the genders.
The ESRI said the differences come down to the economic activity of the genders, because women are more likely than men to be lone parents, to be out of the labour force and to benefit from child-related supports. The figures show that just 1 per cent of men are stay-at-home parents compared to 29 per cent of women.
“Although tax and welfare policies do not typically differentiate based on gender, they can affect men and women differently. Men tend to have higher earnings than women, resulting in different income tax liabilities and benefit entitlement,” said Dr Karina Doorley, an author of the report.
Indeed when it’s a matter more of income taxes than a combination of taxes and welfare payments, the differences are eroded, with single men and women without children seeing their incomes decline in a similar manner. Moreover, little difference was found in terms of how men and women who both work have fared.
But lone parents, who are mainly women, lost proportionally more than singles without children, with the figures showing that women who don’t work saw their disposable income declining by 8.5 per cent in the period 2012-2018, or by 13 per cent from 2008-2012. This compares with a respective decline of 4.4 per cent and 6.5 per cent for men who don’t work. The main driver in the decline of women’s disposable incomes has been the decline in welfare benefits, as well as child benefit.
Men in work fared the best, as their disposable incomes increased by 1 per cent over the period from 2012-2018, compared with a fall of 0.7 per cent for women in work. Retired men also saw austerity budgets have a more benign impact on their pocket than retired women, with the former seeing their disposable incomes decline by 0.9 per cent from 2012-2018, compared with 1.8 per cent for female pensioners.
While welfare benefits such as child benefit and family supplements were cut in successive austerity budgets, a compounding factor has been that welfare payments failed to keep pace with inflation during the recovery period.
“As a result, much of the differential impact of tax and benefit changes is concentrated in the lower half of the income distribution,” the ESRI said.
The authors’ advice for gender-proofing future budgets is that policy changes should not disproportionally affect tax units with children, or tax units where one member of a couple doesn’t work.
The 2018 budget, for example, increased the tax credit that stay-at-home parents are eligible for.
In a separate publication published on Tuesday, the PBO called for the use of the model used by the ESRI in preparing its gender report to assess the impact by gender of future budget proposals.0 -
Except there's 85 countries that have greater female representation than Ireland. Including some where women outnumber the men. And historically women were denied the right to vote and the right to sit in parliaments. So If we look back through history we see pretty much zero representation for most of time. And weirdly the same reasons you've given were the reasons given as to why women couldn't vote or sit for parliament.
So feck off with your silly explanation. I know it made sense in your head why women shouldn't be elected representatives. The evidence against your argument is that there's loads of women who are representing their countries, just not here.
So why not here? Why not here when there's a greater proportion of women who represented their country in nearly every other european country as well as Iraq, Somalia etc... What makes Ireland different to the other 85 countries.
Here's the numbers.
http://archive.ipu.org/wmn-e/classif.htm
It's not because of sexism.
I can apply your exact same logic to why hardly any men are teachers in Ireland.
But I don't blame women or society for the lack of male teachers, because that would be stupid.0 -
Actually single female parents are disproportionately affected by poverty and austerity.
https://www.irishtimes.com/business/personal-finance/austerity-budgets-hit-lone-parents-hardest-esri-1.3673269
You are kidding me right? You are talking about government handouts...have you any idea of how men were affected by that very same financial crisis....the type of men who get nothing from the state...0 -
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But when you actively oppose attempts by others to do better, it is upsetting for people who care deeply about this stuff.
I am not actively opposing anyone, and am perfectly happy to have female or male politcians, doctors, aeronautical engineers, whatever. All I would like is the best person for the job. (Unfortunately in politics this is a special case where those who seek power are to be suspected. But that is another issue.)
I am giving my opinion that these routes have been accessible in this country and the west for some time. I am allergic to a hysterical form of feminism that patronises women. Get there on one's merits not by quota.
And people who would like to get involved in politics have to learn to hear opinions radically different than their own, without being upset.
PS more women go to college than men, by about a third I think.0 -
Silentcorner wrote: »You are kidding me right? You are talking about government handouts...have you any idea of how men were affected by that very same financial crisis....the type of men who get nothing from the state...
It says so in the article. Working men were actually the least affected.0 -
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I am not actively opposing anyone, and am perfectly happy to have female or male politcians, doctors, aeronautical engineers, whatever. All I would like is the best person for the job. (Unfortunately in politics this is a special case where those who seek power are to be suspected. But that is another issue.)
I am giving my opinion that these routes have been accessible in this country and the west for some time. I am allergic to a hysterical form of feminism that patronises women. Get there on one's merits not by quota.
And people who would like to get involved in politics have to learn to hear opinions radically different than their own, without being upset.
PS more women go to college than men, by about a third I think.
To be clear, I have not proposed or endorsed quotas.0 -
I notice that you dismissed the report based on the fact that they used some alliteration and then completely ignored the substantive points made in it?
E.g. Childcare: The Dáil regularly has late sittings that go on into the night even though there is no actual need for them to do this. A simple policy change of “outside of emergencies we never sit after 8pm” would be beneficial to parents.
Confidence/Culture: Not everybody went to college Zorya, and of those that did, not everyone was interested in politics at 19. If you’re trying to get into politics at 36 and 70% of your local TDs and Councillors (as well as the party membership) are male, that can be intimidating. If it wouldn’t intimidate you, good for you. Why are you against any attempt to make politics more accessible for women?
Candidate selection: Do some research on affinity bias.
Ultimately if you’re happy with just 1 in 5 politicians being female, grand I guess. You’re entitled to hold that opinion. But when you actively oppose attempts by others to do better, it is upsetting for people who care deeply about this stuff.
He didn't ignore it because of alliteration.
You mentioned that the Dail not sitting after 8 would be beneficial for "parents". Not all parents are women btw
If you have no interest in politics at a young age, I would argue that you are unlikely to be that interested when you get older, and if you do become interested at a late stage after having only a career in retail, you will find it hard to earn your place among people who have spent their lives interested in politics. It is in no way making it less accessible for women. Women have the exact same opportunities.
Would you be happier if 5 out of ten politicians were female?
If you or a loved one needed to be operated on for life saving surgery, would you want the best surgeon available or would you be ok having someone who is inferior to others but because of positive discrimination, got the job.
Let the most qualified and most competent people do the job. Regardless of sex/race/religion. Everyone has a choice to do what they want. Stop whinging.0 -
[Deleted User] wrote: »He didn't ignore it because of alliteration.
You mentioned that the Dail not sitting after 8 would be beneficial for "parents". Not all parents are women btw
If you have no interest in politics at a young age, I would argue that you are unlikely to be that interested when you get older, and if you do become interested at a late stage after having only a career in retail, you will find it hard to earn your place among people who have spent their lives interested in politics. It is in no way making it less accessible for women. Women have the exact same opportunities.
Would you be happier if 5 out of ten politicians were female?
If you or a loved one needed to be operated on for life saving surgery, would you want the best surgeon available or would you be ok having someone who is inferior to others but because of positive discrimination, got the job.
Let the most qualified and most competent people do the job. Regardless of sex/race/religion. Everyone has a choice to do what they want. Stop whinging.
Zorya is a she.
Yes, I’m aware that banning late sittings would benefit both fathers and mothers. And I think that’s a good thing. What did you think I’d say “Oh? It benefits Dads too? **** it. Let’s not do it so. I’m ONLY interested in moves that exclusively benefit women!”
I too believe that we should have the best people for the job in the job. Looking at some of the mediocre at best crop of politicians we’ve got, I absolutely think we can do better. And I think more female representatives and more representatives under 45-50 would be great.
Know who doesn’t give a flying f*** about childcare? Men whose kids are already grown up. That’s who we’ve got in the Dáil for the most part? Know who doesn’t give a f*** about housing? Men who already have their mortgage paid off and a second or third property they gain income from.
And yes, I’m obviously generalizing and #notallmen and all that. But it’s fair to say younger people who have kids in school know more about crèche fees than the vast majority of our parliament who haven’t even had to think about that stuff in their own lives in several decades.0 -
Men are more interested in politics in absolute shocker.. that goes totally in line with absolutely everyone's life experiences.0
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Deleted User wrote: »Men are more interested in politics in absolute shocker.. that goes totally in line with absolutely everyone's life experiences.
I'm super into politics and the only people (probably 99%) I can talk to in depth about politics are men.
I can understand some women wish there were more female leaders, just like I'd prefer if there were more male teachers, but it is what it is, way more men are into politics, way more women are into teaching.
It is incredibly intellectually lazy to blame these problems on men. I'd even go as far as saying the people who blame this stuff on men are straight up low intelligence.0 -
Candidate selection doesn’t hold much water in an STV system. If women voted for women it wouldn’t matter if parties selected them or not. They’d get 50% of the vote.0
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Franz Von Peppercorn II wrote: »Candidate selection doesn’t hold much water in an STV system. If women voted for women it wouldn’t matter if parties selected them or not. They’d get 50% of the vote.
Maybe women have more sense..they know what women are like..0 -
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Kiki you suggested earlier that another poster should look up affinity bias. Have you looked it up yourself? Because the post below suggests that you haven’t -
Affinity bias is a tendency to warm up to people like ourselves.I too believe that we should have the best people for the job in the job. Looking at some of the mediocre at best crop of politicians we’ve got, I absolutely think we can do better. And I think more female representatives and more representatives under 45-50 would be great.
You’re assuming that based upon the characteristics you have identified, that female representatives under 45-50 would share the interests that you imagine they should, that being of course housing and childcare and so on. I wouldn’t share your stereotypes because I know that it would be more logical to conclude that affinity bias also affects women who don’t share your opinions - they have an affinity with the people in their lives, and the people who are in their circumstances. They would not necessarily share an affinity with other women solely on the basis that they are of the same sex (Hillary Clinton thought the way you do too, and it turns out she got it so badly wrong as a greater percentage of women voted for Trump!)Know who doesn’t give a flying f*** about childcare? Men whose kids are already grown up. That’s who we’ve got in the Dáil for the most part? Know who doesn’t give a f*** about housing? Men who already have their mortgage paid off and a second or third property they gain income from.
Who we’ve got in the Dail for the most part are obviously people whose opinions you don’t appear to share. You can of course say they don’t care about childcare and housing and all the rest of it, but I don’t see what an increase in female representation in the Dail would do to address those issues to your satisfaction, unless you believe that because they are women, they’re likely to care about these issues as much as you do over the men that don’t care about these issues as much as you do.
Know who actually doesn’t give a fcuk about childcare or housing? People who don’t give a fcuk about childcare or housing. Their sex has nothing to do with how much or how little they care about either childcare or housing. They have other, greater, more immediate priorities in their lives than having the time to ponder what other people’s lives must be like.And yes, I’m obviously generalizing and #notallmen and all that. But it’s fair to say younger people who have kids in school know more about crèche fees than the vast majority of our parliament who haven’t even had to think about that stuff in their own lives in several decades.
I don’t think it’s fair to say that at all, because from my experience, the impression I get is that the vast majority of young people are completely clueless about the costs of various childcare services, the costs of education, etc. Their grasp of economics is poor, basically. They have no idea how to manage themselves, let alone manage a Government portfolio. The country would descend into a basket case if your ideas for who should be given greater representation in the Dail were ever to come to fruition. When they’re not falling off swings, they’re waving their knickers about in the Dail because a decision in the Courts doesn’t go their way, notwithstanding the idea of the separation of powers between the judiciary and the Oireachtas which means that they are effectively just virtue signalling while knowing they have no power to actually effect anything.0 -
I’m living in today. I’m very grateful that I was born when I was and I fully acknowledge now is the best time there has ever been to be a woman in Ireland.
I can still see that woman are dramatically underrepresented at the highest levels of power- politics, the judiciary, business, medicine.
And I’m not okay with that.
What are you doing to change this?Maybe you missed the campaign last year led by women to repeal the 8th? Whichever side of the debate you were on, surely you can see they organized and ran an excellent campaign?
And what did you do?
A campaign to vote a certain way in a referendum is not doing much in my opinion.Why does the idea of improving female participation in politics get your back up?
It doesn’t get my back up, but what are you doing to improve female participation in politics?Ultimately if you’re happy with just 1 in 5 politicians being female, grand I guess. You’re entitled to hold that opinion. But when you actively oppose attempts by others to do better, it is upsetting for people who care deeply about this stuff.
I never said whether I am happy with it or not, and I am not opposing anyone’s attempts to do better.
My question to you is: what are you doing to change things?0 -
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How in the scuttering hell did this thread get to be about female quotas for cushy jobs?0
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Deleted User wrote: »Men are more interested in politics in absolute shocker.. that goes totally in line with absolutely everyone's life experiences.
That's kinda the point. Same with the whole STEM thing. Women are less likely to be involved because it's not the norm as they grow up. The 5 c's are the things that contribute most to that culture. They don't necessarily apply to all women and they can sometimes apply to men but in general they are the reason we have less women in politics. Unfortunately the powers that be have decided to address this culture with gender quotas instead of addressing each of the 5 c's, which would benefit everyone.0 -
That's kinda the point. Same with the whole STEM thing. Women are less likely to be involved because it's not the norm as they grow up. The 5 c's are the things that contribute most to that culture. They don't necessarily apply to all women and they can sometimes apply to men but in general they are the reason we have less women in politics. Unfortunately the powers that be have decided to address this culture with gender quotas instead of addressing each of the 5 c's, which would benefit everyone.
I don't agree with the nurture argument.
I was the first generation to have the option of getting a home computer. Why was it almost entirely boys who were interested in getting a computer?
Me and all my friends all loved computers when we were 6+ years old. None of our sisters cared.
Men and women are different. It's OK we're different.
Don't be fooled by the current feminist nonsense which is solely to justify their activist salaries - don't stop the fight until we're totally equal! This is a scam, they know it's a scam, but it'll keep their cause alive forever, because it's an impossible task.
It's just unfortunate feminism seems to attract people who aren't very good at thinking things through, so there's plenty of people lapping up the nonsense.0 -
[Deleted User] wrote: »Men are more interested in politics in absolute shocker.. that goes totally in line with absolutely everyone's life experiences.
That’s not in line with my life experience at all. From political societies in college to a brief flirtation with the SocDems when they started out to the Repeal campaign, I’ve found the ratio of men to women my age who are interested in politics and well educated on it is about 60:40.
Granted my friend group (male and female) is more politically engaged than the average population.
I’ve noticed that even among my most politically engaged friends, the men are far more likely to put themselves forward than equally capable and ambitious women, and I’d be interested to find out why.
These women will canvass, fundraise and generally do leg work for their party’s local candidate but are reluctant to run themselves despite obvious political interest and ambitions.0 -
MontgomeryClift wrote: »How in the scuttering hell did this thread get to be about female quotas for cushy jobs?
Welcome to After Hours, where all roads lead to either feminism or Islam.0 -
I pulled a book off the shelf discussing womens role in the Home Front 39-45 , a nice essay by one of the women commanders , directed at women not going forward for positions of responsibility .
DECEMBER 1943
ON ACCEPTING RESPONSIBILITYIt is good to do one’s best at one’s job but it is not good enough if one could do a harder job equally well.
Some members of our organization are reluctant to accept posts as Forewomen or to make any effort to get more responsible jobs than they have at present.
Many may feel that in refusing promotion they show a becoming modesty, but modesty, like some other virtues, can be a convenient cloak for less desirable qualities such as laziness, lack of enterprise and the fear of failure or of unpopularity.
Except for ambition and domniating personalities, it is often easier and more comfortable not to step out of the rut – to jog along in a familiar job on equal terms with ones fellow workers, and not to have to plan the work, direct others in carrying it out and accept responsibility for success or failure.
But if the Churchills and Roosevelts of the world chose , on such grounds as these, to be bricklayer and fisherman, who would deal with the Hitlers? for they certainly would not decide to be house painters.0 -
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Anyway, you can't be racist for thinking Trump is an arsehole and not wanting him in Ireland. You would be racist if you just didn't like him because he's a honky and I dunno, maybe a bigot for pointing out that he's morbidly obese if you don't like his particular brand of jelly?0
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