Open racism is ok if it's for the progressive cause.

KikiLaRue

Zorya wrote: »

Let's say we accept the language - privilege, discrimination, disadvantage, etc - it leads to questions down the line. How long do"groups" get to hang on to their victim status? Do they pull the ladder up after them? What happens the well funded victim advocate groups after parity and beyond?

Eg One third more girls go to college than boys, where are the boys advocacy groups?
Eg Gay married men with children in the US earn twice the pre-tax income of heterosexual married couples with children. And gay men earn 10% more in the same job profiles as straight men. And lesbians earn less than gay men. Where are the heterosexual or lesbian advocacy groups for equal pay and parity of opportunity / outcome?

Etc etc Victim politics is boring and dehumanising. And ultimately ridiculous.

Calling it 'victim politics' makes it sounds like there are no actual victims when it comes to discrimination? Is that your position?

Zorya

Grayson wrote: »

It doesn't matter who fought for it. If we're privileged it means someone else isn't. That's what equality is about.

Actually, in terms of history it does matter because it's good to remember sacrifice and how people were oppressed. That's why we remember civil rights leaders and people like that.

But in day to day life, it doesn't matter who fought for it if it means we enjoy more privileges than others.

Have you seen what happened in all the past efforts to create completely equal societies? Unless homo sapiens becomes unexpectedly enlightened there will be elites, and the most brutal ones are communist.

Grayson

RandomName2 wrote: »

Yeah, see what I mean about it quickly becoming meaningless? That doesn't sound like privilege to me. Why not turn it on its head? If you are black in a predominately black society, you are privileged not to have someone make judgments about you based on the color of your skin.

It depends on what the judgement is. But even assuming that someones thinking negatively about the white person as an individual that white person might still be far more advantaged because of their background.

And remember this is just in general. I'm sure if we were to look at deep south USA we could pick examples that buck the trend, but in general the trend holds out to be true.

Grayson

Zorya wrote: »

Have you seen what happened in all the past efforts to create completely equal societies? Unless homo sapiens becomes unexpectedly enlightened there will be elites, and the most brutal ones are communist.

That's a slippery slope argument. Aiming for a society that helps its poorest, doesn't allow discrimination etc isn't saying we have to turn stalinist.

And because humans are fecking idiots there will probably always be racists and sexists (There are some prime examples on these boards) but that doesn't mean we shouldn't strive to make society as equal as possible.

I'm assuming you're not in favor of discrimination. Because that's where your argument could lead.

Ruraldweller56

KikiLaRue wrote: »

Are you seriously not even able to acknowledge that people with disabilities face challenges that able-bodied people don't? That's messed up. You know what's better than the disability allowance and charity? Having a fully functioning body.



I haven't been condescending toward anyone. Ruraldweller asked a genuine question and I gave a genuine answer. You're free to recognise or not recognise whatever pleases you best.



WHAT are you on about here? Nobody is suggesting anything like this, you're just being a silly billy now.




If you have lived a life free of discrimination, racial abuse, having to fight for LGBT rights etc, you have indeed had a smoother ride than many in that regard. You don't need to apologise for that in any way, shape or form, but one thing you can do is acknowledge that it's a set of challenges you've never had to face.

Some people call having a life where you've never had to fight for your rights a privilege, or an advantage, to use another word (because people seem really caught up on the word privilege specifically)

Another thing you can do if you choose to is use this privilege to advocate for people who don't have the same advantages e.g. speak up if you hear a friend making a racist or homophobic comment that would be hurtful to someone from that community.

Ruraldweller56 wrote: »

I find with a lot of these people they seem to think that because of past crimes of the white man that we collectively owe the rest of the world something. Which is a bizarre way to look at things for an Irish person.
/QUOTE]

Imagine you were in college with someone incredibly wealthy, and you found out their wealth was inherited through the generations from rackrent British landlords who let their Irish tenants starve during the famine. Wouldn't you resent the wealth they accumulated at the expense of your ancestors? Well that's how a lot of Pakistani and Indian and African and (well, it's a long list of places the Brits invaded) feel.

So they do sort of think "you built your country's wealth off the back of ours - you owe us". And to be honest, I get it to a degree.

Ireland is a funny conundrum in this sense because we are one of the few (if only) white countries that were colonised. So in our history we have much more in common with the colonised than the colonisers, but we get lumped in with them because we're white too.

See this is what I don't get. My ancestors did nothing of the sort. If the folk on the liberal/left side of the spectrum need to believe that they're descendants of plantation owners fine (maybe they are).

My ancestors survived on bits of cabbage and nettles while all that was going on.

Matt Barrett wrote: »

I think privilege is not having to defend your entire ethnic background, religion or culture to randos on the internet because someone with the same ethnic background, religion or culture did something.

Well imagine how it must feel then when you have to defend your entire ethnic background, religion or culture to randos on the internet because someone with a different ethnic background, religion or culture did something back in the 1800's.

If others want to believe they're somehow responsible for all that rubbish and wars in Iraq and Afghanistan etc. fine but leave the rest of us out of it.

Tbh reading this line in particular, made my head hurt:

So they do sort of think "you built your country's wealth off the back of ours - you owe us". And to be honest, I get it to a degree.

James Brown

RandomName2 wrote: »

Yeah, see what I mean about it quickly becoming meaningless? That doesn't sound like privilege to me. Why not turn it on its head? If you are black in a predominately black society, you are privileged not to have someone make judgments about you based on the color of your skin.

Feel privileged that you live below the permafrost line, at a higher altitude than death valley, and a low enough altitude that you don't have to deal with rarefied air, where it rains, but not incessantly, where it is sometimes sunny, but not a desert, on the only planet in the Goldilocks zone of our solar system.

Nah, privileged in this instance means benefiting from simply being white in a predominantly white society.

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

What if you're white in a predominately non white area?

The opposite might apply? Unless you're the plantation owner

James Brown

Zorya wrote: »

But that is wrong and inhuman. It also divides people. I made my once a week trip to town today and it's plain to see many people are labouring under some suffering. Poor people. Sick people. Old or disabled people. Improperly fed people. People with drug dependence. And that is just the visible stuff. Everyone suffers. Some who look fine suffer terribly. Any competition regarding privilege or non privilege should be halted as it is ugly. We live in a lucky circumstance.

It's only meant to show inequality as fair as I know. If it's misused, it's misused, doesn't mean it's not a thing.

OMM 0000

The problem is the media. They let the left-leaning racists and bigots get away with their bad behaviour.

People like Tucker Carlson try to call them out but gets labelled and dismissed as a white supremicist.

If the media could be consistent when it comes to pointing out racism and sexism, you'd see these bigots disappear pretty quickly.

Don't get me started on the professional activists who are allowed race bait and gender bait.

Rubberchikken

i love President Trump and hate racism.
but hatred of racism has to come from everyone. it cant be selective or just restricted to whites.
and i dont appreciate anyobe from anywhere telling me how lucky i am or how i should be aware of my life/whatever.
plus im a big fan of Israel. and im deadly serious.

Hobosan

KikiLaRue wrote: »

Are you seriously not even able to acknowledge that people with disabilities face challenges that able-bodied people don't? That's messed up. You know what's better than the disability allowance and charity? Having a fully functioning body.

Bravo, you're really teaching this Schizophrenic a lesson. Take a bow, if your body allows it.

Ironically, I feel more privileged than yourself in the grey-matter department.

I'm grateful to the 'fully functional' among us. Christ knows we'd be utterly screwed only for those poor saps. Don't begrudge them one bit.

suicide_circus

why dont i play for the LA Lakers or Chicago Bulls? because my physical traits dont allow for that.

why havent i won the Nobel prize for physics? because my mental traits dont allow for that.

why arent any of my paintings in the Tate Modern? because my artistic traits dont allow for that.

until we equalise every humans traits, we will have inequalities and hierarchies.

Grayson

Grayson wrote:

Privilege exists.You and I could argue about the level of privilege and how it exists in society but it does exist.

I disagree

Matt Barrett wrote:

I think privilege is not having to defend your entire ethnic background, religion or culture to randos on the internet because someone with the same ethnic background, religion or culture did something.

I kind of agree. I don't think that because I am white and straight my opinion should be invalid.

Franz Von Peppercorn II wrote:

If privilege means the abscence of discrimination then yes. However Irish people fought for that.

But...... It's the opposite.

Matt Barrett wrote:

If you are white in a predominately white society, you are privileged not to have this happen. It doesn't mean all whites are well to do or affluent just they don't have as much weight to carry simply by going about their daily business.

Bollocks.

Silentcorner

You are playing with fire if you replace an economy based on competition and freedom of choice with one based on equality...start sweating when people start to get silenced!

Victim/Identity politics is a scourge....we may very well pay a big price down the line!

Franz Von Peppercorn II

Grayson wrote: »

It depends on what the judgement is. But even assuming that someones thinking negatively about the white person as an individual that white person might still be far more advantaged because of their background.

And remember this is just in general. I'm sure if we were to look at deep south USA we could pick examples that buck the trend, but in general the trend holds out to be true.

It’s utter ****. Whites in Ireland include the Irish catholics up north, the inner city, travellers, Poles, Albanians, Eastern European in general, and some South Americans. Most of our immigrants in fact. Most of our poor.

It also includes people like the trinity students and Dublin southsiders who have real privilege. You can see why they love this cant. If you add in male privilege then a female from a rich southside family can rant about the privilege of her immigrant plumber.

Irish people do not have the same history as American whites. Blanks here were not enslaved. Nor was there jim crow. It’s not surprising that immigrants are poorer than the people already here, if that’s even the case. It probably isn’t for some immigrant groups.

beejee

The whole thing is ludicrous. Take a step back from the particulars like trump and political correctness and double standards etc.

It is most certainly the equivalent of some randomer turning up in your house, making themselves at home while simultaneously criticising you day in and day out because their random background from a corner of earth is different from your random background.

Imagine putting up with that in your own home.

The whole thing is so far removed from reason and logic and common sense its nearly unbelievable.

People aren't seeing the forest for the trees.

A bit of a stretch for an analogy, but imagine that attitude transplanted onto the English when they invaded. Not only do they just move in because they felt like it, but they try to guilt-trip you into thinking its somehow your fault and you shouldn't complain while they move more of their mates in! At least they had the "honesty" to be upfront about it all.

This thing, on the other hand, theres something awful insidious and oily about it, pretending to be righteous and upstanding when all it comes down to is grabbing what you can.

Nobelium

Anteayer wrote: »

Spend a few hours sometime in any political context here where people are working cross party e.g. with any TD etc, from any party and you'd be surprised how unlike the online bubbles it is.

That's because it's nothing to do about having any principle, it's all about the dosh.

Nobelium

Deleted User wrote: »

Aye. Attack the argument...

Ruraldweller56 wrote: »

So what would you say to those morons with their balloon?

They are utterly incapable of coming up with a truthful, fully factual decent argument. The media are just as bad. No interest whatsoever in examining and tackling the real causes and reasons why someone like Trump was elected. As a result he's going to be re-elected.

Nobelium

Snickers Man wrote: »

So true.

Especially this whole "left" v "right" bull****

It's essential though for the continued success of divide and conquer strategy.

Nobelium

Grayson wrote: »

Privilege exists.You and I could argue about the level of privilege and how it exists in society but it does exist.

Where do I get some of this white male privilege I keep hearing about ?

No one ever handed me anything in life because of my skin colour or sex . . . anything I have I worked dam hard for it.

mdk_kdm

I prefer to call privilege superiority

Jesus..
This thread is depressing..

Mrsmum

Nobelium wrote: »

Where do I get some of this white male privilege I keep hearing about ?

No one ever handed me anything in life because of my skin colour or sex . . . anything I have I worked dam hard for it.

The way I see it is if people were one dimensional then white males would be on the top layer of society as they have been in charge since forever. However add intersectionality (the interconnected nature of social categorizations such as race, class, and gender as they apply to a given individual or group, regarded as creating overlapping and interdependent systems of discrimination or disadvantage.), which is the way human being actually exist and then white male privilege is a movable feast. As a group white males have privilege other groups can only dream of and are always fighting for but as individuals white men can be anywhere on the spectrum of privilege including the bottom.

Nobelium

Mrsmum wrote: »

As a group white males have privilege other groups can only dream of and are always fighting for but as individuals white men can be anywhere on the spectrum of privilege including the bottom.

more racist sexist crap, and a total logical contradiction.

Go to Dubai, you'll realize white males aren't running the world..

seasidedub

Awards Ceremony wrote: »

I've noticed the people who attend these anti Trump and the like events tend to be the dregs of society

Normal people just don't care. It's not logical to hate a man who is not even the president of your own country.

They also tend to be long term unemployed because let's face it, if you've a job, mortgage and 2 kids in day care you have no time to be out protesting. After all, you need to pay taxes for their dole. Often wondered what the country would actually look like if the hard left got in. Eventually you run out of other people's money.....

mdk_kdm

Mrsmum wrote: »

As a group white males have privilege other groups can only dream of...

Examples?

OMM 0000

seasidedub wrote: »

They also tend to be long term unemployed because let's face it, if you've a job, mortgage and 2 kids in day care you have no time to be out protesting. After all, you need to pay taxes for their dole. Often wondered what the country would actually look like if the hard left got in. Eventually you run out of other people's money.....

You're reminding me of the people I used to know in the Socialist Workers Party.

They were all unemployed.

I remember asking one person how they plan to fund everything when they get into government.

"By taxing the rich".

Ok and where will the rich get their money from?

"From their businesses".

So you want a socialist state funded by capitalism?

"No the state will eventually take over these businesses".

Won't this just lower everyone's motivation and as a result profits, causing things to eventually end up the way the USSR did?

"No it'll be different".



I wasn't as aggressive as this (I'm on my phone so just trying to get the jist across) but I remember thinking these people haven't thought anything through.

Blueshoe

Awards Ceremony wrote: »

The 'protest' in my city began just after I left work. Even if I wanted to join, I was tired and just wanted to go home.

Actually feel bad for these people. I guess they have nothing going for them.

It gives them something to feel part of. Sad

Mrsmum

mdk_kdm wrote: »

Examples?

In politics, in industry, in sport, it's all white males.

In movies look at women's roles in comparison to men.

See how women are objectified,harassed and attacked just because of their sex.

See how women are written out of history as if herstory is of no importance.

That's just from a straight woman's pov. I'm sure other groups see other advantages that both men and women have over them. It's life.

OMM 0000

Mrsmum wrote: »

In politics, in industry, in sport, it's all white males.

Are you sure you've thought through your argument?

I just looked at the Ghana government and it's all black people.

I just looked at the Nigerian soccer team and it's all black men.

I just looked at the Kenyan Central Bank and it's all black people.

So doesn't it make sense most Irish politicians, industry leaders and sports people will be white?

In fact, I'm pretty sure our soccer team, who are playing right now, have two black players. Yet 20% of Ireland is not black.

Mrsmum wrote: »

In movies look at women's roles in comparison to men.

Movies which are about action usually have a male lead.

This makes sense. Look at the gender makeup of the military.

The reality (fortunately or unfortunately) is violence is the realm of men.

Mrsmum wrote: »

See how women are objectified,harassed and attacked just because of their sex.

Most victims of violence are men.

It's open season on saying men are **** and blaming everything on men.

You can harass and blame white males all you want and you won't be considered a racist or sexist.

Mrsmum wrote: »

See how women are written out of history as if herstory is of no importance.

This is not true.

Especially in the current climate.

Every time a woman achieves something, or participates in a group achievement, you'll see a BBC story about her.

Women get so much praise whenever they achieve something.