Open racism is ok if it's for the progressive cause.

The Highwayman

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Bull**** (what racism), bull**** (Mkok is an assylem seeker), assumption (protesters are unemployed), more bull**** and ad homeinem. End of conversation. Keep the crayons, I'm only talkign to the adults here from now on.

Talkign? Is that adult speak? I'm confused.

KikiLaRue

The Highwayman wrote: »

/sigh

Lesley Mkoko is an illegal alien, who has no right to be in the country but the likes of the Irish Independent will celebrate him regardless of the fact he broke Irish and international law on refugees and displaced persons.
.

You are obviously entitled to hold an opinion that’s factually incorrect - but you should know that that’s what it is.

RandomName2

Grayson wrote: »

What you're essentially saying is that we are privileged. And that it's ok because someone fought for it long ago.

Oh Jaysus give me a break.

Maybe if there was a nuclear holocaust we would be better off as everyone would be dead or dying. You wouldn't have to hear the bleating about privilege anymore because nobody would have anything that was worth having.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Bull**** (what racism), bull**** (Mkok is an assylem seeker),

Is it possible to claim asylum in America and get into Harvard for free? Asking for a friend.

Grayson

RandomName2 wrote: »

Oh Jaysus give me a break.

Maybe if there was a nuclear holocaust we would be better off as everyone would be dead or dying. You wouldn't have to hear the bleating about privilege anymore because nobody would have anything that was worth having.



Is it possible to claim asylum in America and get into Harvard for free? Asking for a friend.

Privilege exists.You and I could argue about the level of privilege and how it exists in society but it does exist.

You and I are more privileged that someone in Somalia for example. That's an extreme example, but it's true. I'd say that most europeans are probably more privileged than americans. There's better access to healthcare etc. Gay people here would rarely face discrimination but nothing compared to russia. So the amount of privilege I'd have over a gay person here would be small, but both of us would be more privileged that in Russia. A person from an upperclass home on average has more privileges than someone from a poor working class home.
And we could argue out how these affect a person an an individual level. We'd find people who overcame obstacles and others who didn't, but on average it exists.

Baggly

The Highwayman wrote: »

Lol hate speech!!!!! Leftist class 101 in trying to silence someone who's saying something not progressive. You people are hilarious! Hate speech is pointing out inconvenient truths to morons apparently.


Please explain how Lesley Mkoko came to Ireland from Swaziland.

If he's claiming asylum he had to do so in the first country without war he arrived in. That was not Ireland. There is no war in Swaziland so what was he fleeing? So he's just on the make using the asylum system to try and circumvent Irish and European immigration law, he's just one of 10,000's doing the same thing.

This is why the UN immigration pact surfaced because international law prevents this kind of illegal economic migration.

Hence he's is both a criminal and a thief. An illegal alien who should be deported forthwith.

So take your dictionary roll it up good and tight and ram it up your arse.

Mod

Lol. No. Dont post in this thread if its still active after your ban. Thanks.

Ruraldweller56

Grayson wrote: »

Privilege exists.You and I could argue about the level of privilege and how it exists in society but it does exist.

You and I are more privileged that someone in Somalia for example. That's an extreme example, but it's true. I'd say that most europeans are probably more privileged than americans. There's better access to healthcare etc. Gay people here would rarely face discrimination but nothing compared to russia. So the amount of privilege I'd have over a gay person here would be small, but both of us would be more privileged that in Russia. A person from an upperclass home on average has more privileges than someone from a poor working class home.
And we could argue out how these affect a person an an individual level. We'd find people who overcame obstacles and others who didn't, but on average it exists.

OK so help me out here because I don't really get it.

When people say things like 'check your white privilege' what exactly do they mean? What am I supposed to do and how should I act, how should I carry myself assuming I have this so called 'privilege'?

It seems as if I'm supposed to be apologetic about something. Or that I owe something to greater society. But I don't know what.

KikiLaRue

Ruraldweller56 wrote: »

OK so help me out here because I don't really get it.

When people say things like 'check your white privilege' what exactly do they mean? What am I supposed to do and how should I act, how should I carry myself assuming I have this so called 'privilege'?

It seems as if I'm supposed to be apologetic about something. Or that I owe something to greater society. But I don't know what.

Do you understand that a person with a healthy body is privileged compared with someone in a wheelchair? It doesn’t mean we need to apologize for being able to walk, but we can try and put ourselves in their shoes and understand the different challenges they face that we don’t ever even have to think about.

RandomName2

Grayson wrote: »

Privilege exists.You and I could argue about the level of privilege and how it exists in society but it does exist.

You and I are more privileged that someone in Somalia for example. That's an extreme example, but it's true. I'd say that most europeans are probably more privileged than americans. There's better access to healthcare etc. Gay people here would rarely face discrimination but nothing compared to russia. So the amount of privilege I'd have over a gay person here would be small, but both of us would be more privileged that in Russia. A person from an upperclass home on average has more privileges than someone from a poor working class home.
And we could argue out how these affect a person an an individual level. We'd find people who overcame obstacles and others who didn't, but on average it exists.

Privilege means immunity or special right.

In this context it's special status owing to where you are born.

Well, not just where you are born, but also the social status you are born into.

Okay, not just the location you are born, the social status you are born into, but also the particular genetics you inherit.

Okay not just the location you are born, the social status you are born into, but also the particular genetics you inherit, but also your general luck. Someone who loses their family in random car crash will be less privileged than someone who doesn't. Someone who has an abusive parent will be less privileged than someone who doesn't. Someone who has their chosen poet turn up in the leaving certificate English exam, which gives them enough points to get into medicine, will be more privileged than the person who threw the dice and lost out.

There's a point where this quickly gets ridiculous. Try going to the United States and telling people of color who collect food stamps there that they should accept that they are privileged by being born in the first world. If they complain that they are in fact disadvantaged, say that they should be thankful for the those who fought for civil rights on their behalf, long ago, for their position in the world would be considerably worse off otherwise.

I dislike this term 'privilege' because it's hard to quantify and absolutely subjective. If you're going to talk about wealth, why not talk about wealth? That's something that is at least measurable. Moreover, privilege also has distinct negative connotations, and seems to be driven as a vehicle for guilt. I'm not saying that we should exercise extreme levels of individualism, or worse, imbue social status with the sort of self-righteousness that you get in something like Hinduism (there's no such thing as luck - if someone is worse off than you it is because they deserve it), but neither do I think that people should, without thought, try and make the world equal. The easiest way to make everyone equal is by making everyone worse off.

Hobosan

KikiLaRue wrote: »

Do you understand that a person with a healthy body is privileged compared with someone in a wheelchair? It doesn’t mean we need to apologize for being able to walk, but we can try and put ourselves in their shoes and understand the different challenges they face that we don’t ever even have to think about.

We have a welfare system, disability allowance, discrimination laws, charities...

You are being staggeringly condescending in thinking others don't recognise 'privilege', as people that talk of privilege always tend to be.

Leftist Christianity everybody. Give up all your belongings, including the ones you don't have.

Ruraldweller56

KikiLaRue wrote: »

Do you understand that a person with a healthy body is privileged compared with someone in a wheelchair? It doesn’t mean we need to apologize for being able to walk, but we can try and put ourselves in their shoes and understand the different challenges they face that we don’t ever even have to think about.

Right. Still not entirely sure where that leaves me though. Are you saying that because of the colour of my skin and ethnicity that I have a smoother ride than others, perhaps?

And again, if so what should I do about it?

I find with a lot of these people they seem to think that because of past crimes of the white man that we collectively owe the rest of the world something. Which is a bizarre way to look at things for an Irish person.

I'm white. I'm a Catholic. I've a degree from college and I work and pay taxes.

Are things easy for me compared to the average Somalian or gay Russian? Probably.

Do I think we should have an open borders free for all because of it? No way José.

Snickers Man

Geuze wrote: »

Did this speech occur in Ireland?

Yeah. Five years ago though. Indo report is from August 2014.

If one idiot makes an idiotic point that is impertinent to the wider issue at hand, does his or her idiocy automatically impair the validity of anything and everything with which he or she is in agreement?

This is Monty Python-esque logic.

"If she weighs the same as a duck, she must be made of wood and therefore.....A WITCH!! A WITCH!! BURN HER!! BURN HER!!"

Accused woman:
"It's a fair cop!"
:rolleyes:

mcmoustache

Ruraldweller56 wrote: »

When people say things like 'check your white privilege' what exactly do they mean?

It's usually a joke from what I can gather. I've only ever heard it in a mocking context.

If they are being serious, laugh in their faces and then look around to make sure you didn't land in crazy town by mistake.

Ruraldweller56

Hobosan wrote: »

We have a welfare system, disability allowance, discrimination laws, charities...

You are being staggeringly condescending in thinking others don't recognise 'privilege', as people that talk of privilege always tend to be.

Leftist Christianity everybody. Give up all your belongings, including the ones you don't have.

Correct. They live in one of the most free, liberal (even if they'd have you believe they don't) comfortable, technologically advanced societies on the planet. Given to them mostly by straight white Christian males. The ones they haven't a good word to say about.

James Brown

'Racism can be dismissed on the right if we can deflect to showing some on the left.'

It's a kin to giving out about lefty political entities for doing or being no better than FF/FG. It means nothing.

joe40

Ruraldweller56 wrote: »

Correct. They live in one of the most free, liberal (even if they'd have you believe they don't) comfortable, technologically advanced societies on the planet. Given to them mostly by straight white Christian males. The ones they haven't a good word to say about.

priceless!!!

Ruraldweller56

mcmoustache wrote: »

It's usually a joke from what I can gather. I've only ever heard it in a mocking context.

If they are being serious, laugh in their faces and then look around to make sure you didn't land in crazy town by mistake.

Tbf its only ever been said to me online. I'd imagine however if I'd bumped into those geniuses with their balloon yesterday I'd have heard it.

Ruraldweller56

joe40 wrote: »

priceless!!!

Ah go on off outta dat ya mad yoke ya!!!

Hobosan

Ruraldweller56 wrote: »

Correct. They live in one of the most free, liberal (even if they'd have you believe they don't) comfortable, technologically advanced societies on the planet. Given to them mostly by straight white Christian males. The ones they haven't a good word to say about.

Handed down by centuries of gruelingly hard work, sacrifice and discipline. You'd swear these things just materialised out of thin air and white people happened to have large net to catch it all.

If privilege means every one of your male ancestors for the last few centuries spent 16 hours a day down a mineshaft, then there's an obvious set of boots that some refuse to put themselves in.

Hobosan

Matt Barrett wrote: »

'Racism can be dismissed on the right if we can deflect to showing some on the left.'

Left racism and right racism. The pertinence of the term racism takes another hammer blow.

mcmoustache

Ruraldweller56 wrote: »

Tbf its only ever been said to me online.

Where the hell were you hanging out that someone said that? Jezebel comments section or something?

I'm having a hard time believing that anyone outside of the loonier bubbles would actually be so lacking in self awareness that they would use that phrase in a way that was meant to be taken seriously. It's a meme at this stage.

Ruraldweller56

mcmoustache wrote: »

Where the hell were you hanging out that someone said that? Jezebel comments section or something?

I'm having a hard time believing that anyone outside of the loonier bubbles would actually be so lacking in self awareness that they would use that phrase in a way that was meant to be taken seriously. It's a meme at this stage.

I think it could have been on here. In one of the traveller threads. Or maybe twitter. I'm not quite sure tbh. I didn't really know what it meant then either.

James Brown

Hobosan wrote: »

Handed down by centuries of gruelingly hard work, sacrifice and discipline. You'd swear these things just materialised out of thin air and white people happened to have large net to catch it all.

If privilege means every one of your male ancestors for the last few centuries spent 16 hours a day down a mineshaft, then there's an obvious set of boots that some refuse to put themselves in.

I think privilege is not having to defend your entire ethnic background, religion or culture to randos on the internet because someone with the same ethnic background, religion or culture did something.

Zorya

Let's say we accept the language - privilege, discrimination, disadvantage, etc - it leads to questions down the line. How long do"groups" get to hang on to their victim status? Do they pull the ladder up after them? What happens the well funded victim advocate groups after parity and beyond?

Eg One third more girls go to college than boys, where are the boys advocacy groups?
Eg Gay married men with children in the US earn twice the pre-tax income of heterosexual married couples with children. And gay men earn 10% more in the same job profiles as straight men. And lesbians earn less than gay men. Where are the heterosexual or lesbian advocacy groups for equal pay and parity of opportunity / outcome?

Etc etc Victim politics is boring and dehumanising. And ultimately ridiculous.

Franz Von Peppercorn II

Grayson wrote: »

What you're essentially saying is that we are privileged. And that it's ok because someone fought for it long ago.

If privilege means the abscence of discrimination then yes. However Irish people fought for that.

James Brown

As I understand it;

If you are walking down the street and people are making judgments on you because of your skin colour, having never met you, that's a problem.

If you are white in a predominately white society, you are privileged not to have this happen.
It doesn't mean all whites are well to do or affluent just they don't have as much weight to carry simply by going about their daily business.

DEFTLEFTHAND

Matt Barrett wrote: »

As I understand it;

If you are walking down the street and people are making judgments on you because of your skin colour, having never met you, that's a problem.

If you are white in a predominately white society, you are privileged not to have this happen.
It doesn't mean all whites are well to do or affluent just they don't have as much weight to carry simply by going about their daily business.

What if you're white in a predominately non white area?

KikiLaRue

Hobosan wrote: »

We have a welfare system, disability allowance, discrimination laws, charities...

Are you seriously not even able to acknowledge that people with disabilities face challenges that able-bodied people don't? That's messed up. You know what's better than the disability allowance and charity? Having a fully functioning body.

Hobosan wrote: »

You are being staggeringly condescending in thinking others don't recognise 'privilege', as people that talk of privilege always tend to be.

I haven't been condescending toward anyone. Ruraldweller asked a genuine question and I gave a genuine answer. You're free to recognise or not recognise whatever pleases you best.

Hobosan wrote: »

Leftist Christianity everybody. Give up all your belongings, including the ones you don't have.

WHAT are you on about here? Nobody is suggesting anything like this, you're just being a silly billy now.

Ruraldweller56 wrote: »

Right. Still not entirely sure where that leaves me though. Are you saying that because of the colour of my skin and ethnicity that I have a smoother ride than others, perhaps?

And again, if so what should I do about it?

If you have lived a life free of discrimination, racial abuse, having to fight for LGBT rights etc, you have indeed had a smoother ride than many in that regard. You don't need to apologise for that in any way, shape or form, but one thing you can do is acknowledge that it's a set of challenges you've never had to face.

Some people call having a life where you've never had to fight for your rights a privilege, or an advantage, to use another word (because people seem really caught up on the word privilege specifically)

Another thing you can do if you choose to is use this privilege to advocate for people who don't have the same advantages e.g. speak up if you hear a friend making a racist or homophobic comment that would be hurtful to someone from that community.

Ruraldweller56 wrote: »

I find with a lot of these people they seem to think that because of past crimes of the white man that we collectively owe the rest of the world something. Which is a bizarre way to look at things for an Irish person.
/QUOTE]

Imagine you were in college with someone incredibly wealthy, and you found out their wealth was inherited through the generations from rackrent British landlords who let their Irish tenants starve during the famine. Wouldn't you resent the wealth they accumulated at the expense of your ancestors? Well that's how a lot of Pakistani and Indian and African and (well, it's a long list of places the Brits invaded) feel.

So they do sort of think "you built your country's wealth off the back of ours - you owe us". And to be honest, I get it to a degree.

Ireland is a funny conundrum in this sense because we are one of the few (if only) white countries that were colonised. So in our history we have much more in common with the colonised than the colonisers, but we get lumped in with them because we're white too.

Zorya

Matt Barrett wrote: »

As I understand it;

If you are walking down the street and people are making judgments on you because of your skin colour, having never met you, that's a problem.

If you are white in a predominately white society, you are privileged not to have this happen.
It doesn't mean all whites are well to do or affluent just they don't have as much weight to carry simply by going about their daily business.

But that is wrong and inhuman. It also divides people. I made my once a week trip to town today and it's plain to see many people are labouring under some suffering. Poor people. Sick people. Old or disabled people. Improperly fed people. People with drug dependence. And that is just the visible stuff. Everyone suffers. Some who look fine suffer terribly. Any competition regarding privilege or non privilege should be halted as it is ugly. We live in a lucky circumstance.

RandomName2

Matt Barrett wrote: »

As I understand it;

If you are walking down the street and people are making judgments on you because of your skin colour, having never met you, that's a problem.

If you are white in a predominately white society, you are privileged not to have this happen.

Yeah, see what I mean about it quickly becoming meaningless? That doesn't sound like privilege to me. Why not turn it on its head? If you are black in a predominately black society, you are privileged not to have someone make judgments about you based on the color of your skin.

Feel privileged that you live below the permafrost line, at a higher altitude than death valley, and a low enough altitude that you don't have to deal with rarefied air, where it rains, but not incessantly, where it is sometimes sunny, but not a desert, on the only planet in the Goldilocks zone of our solar system.

Grayson

Franz Von Peppercorn II wrote: »

If privilege means the abscence of discrimination then yes. However Irish people fought for that.

It doesn't matter who fought for it. If we're privileged it means someone else isn't. That's what equality is about.

Actually, in terms of history it does matter because it's good to remember sacrifice and how people were oppressed. That's why we remember civil rights leaders and people like that.

But in day to day life, it doesn't matter who fought for it if it means we enjoy more privileges than others.