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Dublin - Metrolink (Swords to Charlemont only)

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    #272
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,453 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Sierra Oscar wrote: »
    Looks like a whole load of Green Party candidates are about to be elected to the Dublin Councils. Makes you wonder what their stance on the current Metrolink project will be given the views held by their party leader.

    I'm speculating a lot here, but I reckon Eamon Ryan will probably be Tánaiste in a future Government within a year. Wouldn't surprise me if a rethink of Metrolink was one of his bargaining chips for entering into a coalition Government.

    I was talking to one of the Green Party candidates about Metrolink and the point made was that they are for the Metrolink but think more thought should have been given to the possibility of a SW routing rather than the current plan, however, they are strongly in favour of 'Build it and build it now'.

    I think it was a mistake to take the view they did - it smacked of vote getting and NIMBY-ism. They should be better than that.


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    #273
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,368 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Sierra Oscar wrote: »
    Looks like a whole load of Green Party candidates are about to be elected to the Dublin Councils. Makes you wonder what their stance on the current Metrolink project will be given the views held by their party leader.

    I'm speculating a lot here, but I reckon Eamon Ryan will probably be Tánaiste in a future Government within a year. Wouldn't surprise me if a rethink of Metrolink was one of his bargaining chips for entering into a coalition Government.

    I hope the NTA come out strongly and say that any bits they want tacked on can go into planning independently. The idea of scrapping it now and going back to square one will mean another 6+ year delay that we cannot afford.


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    #274
    salmocab
    Registered Users Posts: 11,313 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    marno21 wrote: »
    I hope the NTA come out strongly and say that any bits they want tacked on can go into planning independently. The idea of scrapping it now and going back to square one will mean another 6+ year delay that we cannot afford.

    Changing the southern part beyond Charlemont would kill the green line upgrade dead. It would be folly to do that as it needs upgrading regardless. The northern part is a good plan but it really needs the Greenline to counter balance the trip generation.


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    #275
    CatInABox
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,279 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    Yes, any change to the Metrolink line south of Charlemont must also come with a follow up question: How are you going to deal with capacity issues on the green line if the Metrolink upgrade cannot go ahead?


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    #276
    Dats me
    Registered Users Posts: 333 ✭✭Dats me


    CatInABox wrote: »
    Yes, any change to the Metrolink line south of Charlemont must also come with a follow up question: How are you going to deal with capacity issues on the green line if the Metrolink upgrade cannot go ahead?

    Eamon Ryan is currently favouring a routing from the Ranelagh end of the tunnel through Donnybrook somewhere, UCD and Sandyford. This would have tunnelling starting in Sandyford and ending and the 'Metro North' part of MetroLink's terminus. Two different planning applications to allow fast track of the north side.

    Green party clearly aren't perfect but anyone who thinks that they aren't the best hope of proper public transport projects (especially BusConnects) getting over the line hasn't been paying attention to what back benchers of other parties say


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    #277
    jd
    Registered Users Posts: 5,688 ✭✭✭jd


    Dats me wrote: »
    Eamon Ryan is currently favouring a routing from the Ranelagh end of the tunnel through Donnybrook somewhere, UCD and Sandyford. This would have tunnelling starting in Sandyford and ending and the 'Metro North' part of MetroLink's terminus. Two different planning applications to allow fast track of the north side.
    At least he is listening. BTW, I believe Ciaran Cuffe wasn't too keen on the "keep the TBM going" line, and there was some "robust discussion".


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    #278
    MJohnston
    Registered Users Posts: 10,561 ✭✭✭✭MJohnston


    Dats me wrote: »
    Eamon Ryan is currently favouring a routing from the Ranelagh end of the tunnel through Donnybrook somewhere, UCD and Sandyford. This would have tunnelling starting in Sandyford and ending and the 'Metro North' part of MetroLink's terminus. Two different planning applications to allow fast track of the north side.

    Green party clearly aren't perfect but anyone who thinks that they aren't the best hope of proper public transport projects (especially BusConnects) getting over the line hasn't been paying attention to what back benchers of other parties say

    The UCD routing was extremely dubious back when we were still looking at the Metro North + Green Line Upgrade proposal.

    But honestly, after these local elections, I think there's a clear appetite for investment in public transport and other green infrastructure. And perhaps even a clear mandate for it too.

    If that managed to translate into increased spending on Metro routes, a fully tunneled Charlemont > UCD > Sandyford line would at least be worth a look.

    Hopefully every party will spend the next year or so pandering to the Green voters with public transport and cycling infrastructure!


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    #279
    salmocab
    Registered Users Posts: 11,313 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    Dats me wrote: »
    Eamon Ryan is currently favouring a routing from the Ranelagh end of the tunnel through Donnybrook somewhere, UCD and Sandyford. This would have tunnelling starting in Sandyford and ending and the 'Metro North' part of MetroLink's terminus. Two different planning applications to allow fast track of the north side.

    Green party clearly aren't perfect but anyone who thinks that they aren't the best hope of proper public transport projects (especially BusConnects) getting over the line hasn't been paying attention to what back benchers of other parties say

    Eamon Ryan is currently favoring getting himself re-elected over everything else. Tunneling to Sandyford via anywhere is an enormous waste of money as there is already a set of tracks that go there, it could have been done as part of metrolink for a pittance compared to tunneling. The whole project was a good one it made good sense, the northern section is very good and the upgrade whilst not perfect was a good option. Now we will have the risk of delays whilst the Green Party play politics.


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    #280
    CatInABox
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,279 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    Dats me wrote: »
    Eamon Ryan is currently favouring a routing from the Ranelagh end of the tunnel through Donnybrook somewhere, UCD and Sandyford. This would have tunnelling starting in Sandyford and ending and the 'Metro North' part of MetroLink's terminus. Two different planning applications to allow fast track of the north side.

    Green party clearly aren't perfect but anyone who thinks that they aren't the best hope of proper public transport projects (especially BusConnects) getting over the line hasn't been paying attention to what back benchers of other parties say

    I'm very sceptical about the benefits of a Sandyford-UCD-Charlemont extension, I don't believe that it would deal with the overcrowding issues, as I fear that most people on a Luas will stay on a Luas rather than change.

    I've said on here that I'd be disappointed if Eamon Ryan was rewarded for his attacks on Metrolink and BusConnects, but I have to admit that I'm impressed with their success. I'm hoping that now that they're closer to the levers of power, they'll be more realistic about what can and cannot be achieved. It looks like their success will drag other parties into greener politics as well, so hopefully all of the parties start supporting more and greater public transport investment. If that happens, then I'll happily swallow my pride and admit that Eamonn Ryan has done a world of good


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    #281
    hmmm
    Registered Users Posts: 11,205 ✭✭✭✭hmmm


    CatInABox wrote: »
    Yes, any change to the Metrolink line south of Charlemont must also come with a follow up question: How are you going to deal with capacity issues on the green line if the Metrolink upgrade cannot go ahead?
    The elections have been a great opportunity to meet politicians, and let them know that while their colleagues in other areas might pick up a few short-term votes from supporting NIMBYs, it's going to cost their party votes in a wider context. Hopefully when the post-mortem starts, they'll remember some of these conversations and grow a national backbone.

    Re Metrolink, the greens willingness to start scribbling with crayons re Metrolink routes at every opportunity has been well-meaning but short-sighted. Similarly they are going to have to ensure that they don't get dragged into supporting the "save our trees" campaign being generated by those opposed to Busconnects. "Good enough and can start now" is better than "Perfect plan which won't start for 20 years" in my view considering the PT problems we face.


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    #282
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,453 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    hmmm wrote: »
    The elections have been a great opportunity to meet politicians, and let them know that while their colleagues in other areas might pick up a few short-term votes from supporting NIMBYs, it's going to cost their party votes in a wider context. Hopefully when the post-mortem starts, they'll remember some of these conversations and grow a national backbone.

    Re Metrolink, the greens willingness to start scribbling with crayons re Metrolink routes at every opportunity has been well-meaning but short-sighted. Similarly they are going to have to ensure that they don't get dragged into supporting the "save our trees" campaign being generated by those opposed to Busconnects. "Good enough and can start now" is better than "Perfect plan which won't start for 20 years" in my view considering the PT problems we face.

    Unfortunately, Eamonn Ryan was on today saying that the only current plans being implemented are not PT based, but widening every route into Dublin, with no plan for what to do with the traffic once it gets inside the M50. [A very valid point].

    Then he said that knocking hundreds of trees to facilitate cars is not the solution. [Which is another good point].

    So how do we do Busconnects and Metrolink? He draws crayons on maps to the effect that Metrolink might not go ahead due to confusion.

    We are in a situation created be 40 years of car-centric planning, and have allowed the car to dominate infrastructure planning with zero real PT planning (well there has been planning but no doing).


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    #283
    hmmm
    Registered Users Posts: 11,205 ✭✭✭✭hmmm


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    Then he said that knocking hundreds of trees to facilitate cars is not the solution. [Which is another good point]
    That's the end of that then - the only thing the Greens had to do here was focus on the big picture, and not get sucked into supporting the NIMBYs by being distracted with small details, and clearly they've fallen into the trap.

    They allowed themselves to be used during Metrolink also. NIMBYs wanted to keep Dunville open for cars, and the Greens "helpfully" came out with new plans rerouting Metro all over South Dublin, which allowed those opposed to Metrolink to say that everything should be reconsidered (but not before 2040).


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    #284
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,368 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    Unfortunately, Eamonn Ryan was on today saying that the only current plans being implemented are not PT based, but widening every route into Dublin, with no plan for what to do with the traffic once it gets inside the M50. [A very valid point].

    Funny how he doesn't formally object to any of those but is happy to stonewall public transport projects to facilitate NIMBY protests in his own constituency.

    How is interfering with Metrolink to facilitate private car traffic on Dunville Avenue ok but not the private car aspect of the BusConnects widening?

    If they are to be successful here, they need to enter the real world also. MetroLink is the most expensive single infrastructure project in the history of the state. Trying to make it even bigger by tacking on extensions here and there is a good way to get it cancelled outright.

    He also neglects to mention that with all his spiel about widening roads and this 2:1 roads:PT myth that it doesn't apply in the GDA.

    Here's a list of public transport projects in the NDP in Dublin

    MetroLink (€3bn)
    DART Expansion (€2bn)
    BusConnects (€2bn)

    Here's a list of roads projects in the Dublin area in the NDP

    N3 Clonee-M50 upgrade (<€100m)
    M4 Leixlip-Maynooth widening (€100m)
    M7 Naas/Newbridge bypass upgrade (€100m)
    M11/N11 Bray-Ashford upgrade (not costed yet, but likely ~€200m)
    M50 Dublin Port South Access (used for accessing the south port for freight traffic, not costed yet and its relevance here is questionable)

    Public transport outweights roads spending by a factor of at least 10.

    Net spend on roads in the NDP outweighs public transport, but that's for a variety of factors and a lot of the roads figures includes maintenance.


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    #285
    strassenwo!f
    Registered Users Posts: 1,512 ✭✭✭strassenwo!f


    I'm a bit surprised that this hasn't been moved to the 'metrolink - alternative routes' thread. Many of the moderators seem to be involved in the discussion, so perhaps that's why.

    Mod: Can you leave modding to the mods.

    Eamon Ryan's transport stuff seems to be crayonism at its worst.

    A couple of years ago, he came up with a route to the southwest from the centre, then he came up with a route to the southwest from the centre along with a LUAS route between Booterstown and Tallaght, and now we're hearing about a UCD route between the city and Sandyford via UCD, and forget the southwest. Is there any mention of the southwest of the city in his current plan? This is all after campaigning for the LUAS Green line to be upgraded to a metro along the current line for many years while he was a TD in that area.

    <snip> Do not insult politicians by calling them names.


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    #286
    prunudo
    Registered Users Posts: 7,191 ✭✭✭prunudo


    strassenwo!f wrote: »
    Eamon Ryan's transport stuff seems to be crayonism at its worst.

    A couple of years ago, he came up with a route to the southwest from the centre, then he came up with a route to the southwest from the centre along with a LUAS route between Booterstown and Tallaght, and now we're hearing about a UCD route between the city and Sandyford via UCD, and forget the southwest. Is there any mention of the southwest of the city in his current plan? This is all after campaigning for the LUAS Green line to be upgraded to a metro along the current line for many years while he was a TD in that area.

    <snip>

    Could probably be transferred to a new thread called 'The 2019 Green party election con job'
    I am very sceptical of what this so called green tsunami or whatever other term a clever media person will come up with will actually mean for transport projects. I think they're a crowd of spoofers to be honest, and I'm not against helping the climate or environmental issues either.


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    #287
    Shedite27
    Registered Users Posts: 9,385 ✭✭✭Shedite27


    Much as I hate to say it, I can imagine Eamonn Ryan thinking....
    1. we proposed ML goes on a different route
    2. Loads of votes/seats
    3. People must like that idea, ramp it up!


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    #288
    Dats me
    Registered Users Posts: 333 ✭✭Dats me


    Shedite27 wrote: »
    Much as I hate to say it, I can imagine Eamonn Ryan thinking....
    1. we proposed ML goes on a different route
    2. Loads of votes/seats
    3. People must like that idea, ramp it up!


    As I see it he stopped being so vocal in his Nimbyism for 3 weeks and his support tripled


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    #289
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,310 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    Dats me wrote: »
    Eamon Ryan is currently favouring a routing from the Ranelagh end of the tunnel through Donnybrook somewhere, UCD and Sandyford. This would have tunnelling starting in Sandyford and ending and the 'Metro North' part of MetroLink's terminus. Two different planning applications to allow fast track of the north side.

    Green party clearly aren't perfect but anyone who thinks that they aren't the best hope of proper public transport projects (especially BusConnects) getting over the line hasn't been paying attention to what back benchers of other parties say

    I'd say the social democrats have been the strongest on public transport


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    #290
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,453 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Mod: Can we get back to Metrolink - Swords to Charlemont.

    Public consultation has closed and not much will happen for a while.

    General Metrolink comments should be placed here.

    Thank you.


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    #291
    CatInABox
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,279 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    Indeed. Now that the submissions have closed, Metrolink are sorting through them, organising and removing duplicates, and will have an update on the numbers tomorrow.

    https://twitter.com/MetroLink_ie/status/1132946880453857280


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    #292
    CatInABox
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,279 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    https://twitter.com/MetroLink_ie/status/1133401287125549056

    Only about 2000 in total, before the duplicates are gathered together.


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    #293
    prunudo
    Registered Users Posts: 7,191 ✭✭✭prunudo


    CatInABox wrote: »
    https://twitter.com/MetroLink_ie/status/1133401287125549056

    Only about 2000 in total, before the duplicates are gathered together.

    How does that compare to other public consultations. Strikes me as being on the low side considering the amount of areas it effects.


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    #294
    CatInABox
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,279 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    jvan wrote: »
    How does that compare to other public consultations. Strikes me as being on the low side considering the amount of areas it effects.

    There was 7500 or so in the first consultation, most of which was taken up with Griffith Park. There's no real way to compare with other, previous consultations either, this and BusConnects are on a totally different level to other consultations.


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    #295
    MetroLinker
    Registered Users Posts: 56 ✭✭MetroLinker


    7591 total, of which 5136 related to Griffith Park.


    kSjNBIWl.png


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    #296
    CatInABox
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,279 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    More info on what's coming through in the submissions:

    https://twitter.com/MetroLink_ie/status/1133401968909725696

    Ashley Avenue, Swords: Can't see this being much of an issue, there's parks within five minutes walk.
    Royal Canal Greenway, Glasnevin: Not much of an issue either, don't see it being closed for any length of time, what with it also being an access road for houses. I think that the cycling groups had been campaigning for a cycle bridge anyway, and think that this is a handy way to get it. I do support a bridge anyway.
    College Gate Apartments, Dublin 2: No real way of avoiding this, to be honest. The engineering report was pretty thorough, and showed no realistic way to deal with the station without knocking the apartments.
    Dartmouth Square, Dublin 6: I've no idea what these guys are complaining about?
    The Greenline upgrade: I'd love for it to be put back in, but I just don't see it happening. Best to just get on with the plan now, and come back to this after completion.


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    #297
    MJohnston
    Registered Users Posts: 10,561 ✭✭✭✭MJohnston


    What's the betting that Dartmouth Square complaints are about tunnelling noise or something.


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    #298
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,368 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    CatInABox wrote: »
    More info on what's coming through in the submissions:

    https://twitter.com/MetroLink_ie/status/1133401968909725696

    Ashley Avenue, Swords: Can't see this being much of an issue, there's parks within five minutes walk.
    Royal Canal Greenway, Glasnevin: Not much of an issue either, don't see it being closed for any length of time, what with it also being an access road for houses. I think that the cycling groups had been campaigning for a cycle bridge anyway, and think that this is a handy way to get it. I do support a bridge anyway.
    College Gate Apartments, Dublin 2: No real way of avoiding this, to be honest. The engineering report was pretty thorough, and showed no realistic way to deal with the station without knocking the apartments.
    Dartmouth Square, Dublin 6: I've no idea what these guys are complaining about?
    The Greenline upgrade: I'd love for it to be put back in, but I just don't see it happening. Best to just get on with the plan now, and come back to this after completion.

    The southside group are against the extension of the tunnel from Charlemont to Ranelagh because it might inconvenience them in the future and they want the idea of any Green Line connection scrapped. No surprise they are complaining again


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    #299
    Qrt
    Registered Users Posts: 1,636 ✭✭✭Qrt


    CatInABox wrote: »
    More info on what's coming through in the submissions:

    https://twitter.com/MetroLink_ie/status/1133401968909725696

    Ashley Avenue, Swords: Can't see this being much of an issue, there's parks within five minutes walk.
    Royal Canal Greenway, Glasnevin: Not much of an issue either, don't see it being closed for any length of time, what with it also being an access road for houses. I think that the cycling groups had been campaigning for a cycle bridge anyway, and think that this is a handy way to get it. I do support a bridge anyway.
    College Gate Apartments, Dublin 2: No real way of avoiding this, to be honest. The engineering report was pretty thorough, and showed no realistic way to deal with the station without knocking the apartments.
    Dartmouth Square, Dublin 6: I've no idea what these guys are complaining about?
    The Greenline upgrade: I'd love for it to be put back in, but I just don't see it happening. Best to just get on with the plan now, and come back to this after completion.

    What’s the Ashley Avenue issue?


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    #300
    CatInABox
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,279 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    Qrt wrote: »
    What’s the Ashley Avenue issue?

    There's a thin, long park at the back of a housing estate, and it's earmarked for the Metrolink route. The entire thing will essentially be removed.

    I don't think that it'll be a major problem, as there are similar, larger parks nearby (albeit across the road and into a different estate), plus all of the houses in the estate have their own gardens.


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    #301
    Dats me
    Registered Users Posts: 333 ✭✭Dats me


    CatInABox wrote: »
    More info on what's coming through in the submissions:

    https://twitter.com/MetroLink_ie/status/1133401968909725696

    Ashley Avenue, Swords: Can't see this being much of an issue, there's parks within five minutes walk.
    Royal Canal Greenway, Glasnevin: Not much of an issue either, don't see it being closed for any length of time, what with it also being an access road for houses. I think that the cycling groups had been campaigning for a cycle bridge anyway, and think that this is a handy way to get it. I do support a bridge anyway.
    College Gate Apartments, Dublin 2: No real way of avoiding this, to be honest. The engineering report was pretty thorough, and showed no realistic way to deal with the station without knocking the apartments.
    Dartmouth Square, Dublin 6: I've no idea what these guys are complaining about?
    The Greenline upgrade: I'd love for it to be put back in, but I just don't see it happening. Best to just get on with the plan now, and come back to this after completion.


    Darthmouth square is not insignificant I think: The Charlemont station is taking some of a garden and then the construction boundary is right up against the boundary of the rest of the gardens in that row of houses - the garden will be returned so the major issue is managing construction disruption and noise - hopefully that's possible


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