Dublin - Metrolink (Swords to Charlemont only)

MJohnston

I don't really agree that it needs to be uniquely Irish. London Underground (or the older style tiled designs) belongs to London because it's an iconic design for London, but there's nothing specifically local about it. Similarly with those DC Metro stations too.

Unlike somewhere like Paris or Berlin too, we don't have a specifically Irish style of architecture that lends itself to station designs. The only themes you could latch onto would turn the places into a Carrolls or an Irish pub or something.

Just give me a utilitarian, functional station design with the flexibility to add a minimal sprinkling of creativity and personality from local artists.

Thrashssacre

Just give me an actual metro and I’ll be happy enough.

madbeanman

MJohnston wrote: »

I don't really agree that it needs to be uniquely Irish. London Underground (or the older style tiled designs) belongs to London because it's an iconic design for London, but there's nothing specifically local about it. Similarly with those DC Metro stations too.

Unlike somewhere like Paris or Berlin too, we don't have a specifically Irish style of architecture that lends itself to station designs. The only themes you could latch onto would turn the places into a Carrolls or an Irish pub or something.

Just give me a utilitarian, functional station design with the flexibility to add a minimal sprinkling of creativity and personality from local artists.

So I totally respect your opinion and like I said my priority is a functioning metro and part of that is a functional station design. But I do struggle to understand why you would prioritise something utilitarian over creativity and personality from local artists.

Keep in mind that I am not asking for a specifically Irish style in the architectural design of the stations. Im talking about how the interior is "decorated' essentially. I presume you weren't suggesting that we don't have traditional art, because we obviously do. Imagine getting subset involved (if you want to focus on street art that is distinctly Dublin). What if you had an installation of animation by Cartoon Saloon, in a station?

Because Metros are used by massive amounts of people and are a massive part of the public realm of any city, then I think there is a benefit in allowing them to frame the city and act as an extension of the area in which they sit.

MJohnston

madbeanman wrote: »

So I totally respect your opinion and like I said my priority is a functioning metro and part of that is a functional station design. But I do struggle to understand why you would prioritise something utilitarian over creativity and personality from local artists.

Basically because above all else, I want these stations to be cheap enough for the whole project to actually happen. That's the primary thing we all have to keep in mind, sadly, in regards to Irish infrastructure projects.

Utilitarian can be given personality - that's exactly what the Dublin Canvas project is about. We can do the same with these stations, but I'd rather see them built above all else, no matter the design.

Keep in mind that I am not asking for a specifically Irish style in the architectural design of the stations. Im talking about how the interior is "decorated' essentially. I presume you weren't suggesting that we don't have traditional art, because we obviously do. Imagine getting subset involved (if you want to focus on street art that is distinctly Dublin). What if you had an installation of animation by Cartoon Saloon, in a station?

Because Metros are used by massive amounts of people and are a massive part of the public realm of any city, then I think there is a benefit in allowing them to frame the city and act as an extension of the area in which they sit.

No, we obviously have traditional art, and plenty of wonderful modern art derived from traditional methods too. But having installations and art spaces within stations is very different from station design - ie. the architectural layout. You can have creative art installations in any kind of station design, but conversely it's really hard to design a station layout to reflect Irish culture without having to dip into the cliche.

The previous Metro North station designs were about as bland as you could possibly imagine, but if they existed, there would still be room for something like Dublin Canvas.

Lord Glentoran

madbeanman wrote: »

I don’t think that Washington Station says anything about Washington though? Unless it’s supposed to tell you that Washington is a brutalist hellscape (not that hellscapes aren’t architecturally interesting. I mean hellscape in its most positive sense because that pic does look cool.)

I think though that a metro should belong to the people. Like God bless that Copenhagen mess but that’s exactly what I don’t want it to be. (Again I’m not gonna protest about it. I’ll be happy with a well run service that isn’t overly gimped by middle class people who can’t tolerate a tiny bit of disruption to their lives for the sake of making people’s lives in the most populated part of the county better.)

Make it belong to Ireland or belong to Dublin. Totally agree with not having it overrun by ads either.

We could have the station interiors pebble dashed and painted with grey Snowcem. That would make them uniquely Irish.

salmocab

Lord Glentoran wrote: »

We could have the station interiors pebble dashed and painted with grey Snowcem. That would make them uniquely Irish.

With immersion tanks for every passenger

caff

No need to have one style have each station different. Maybe run a competition between architecture students throughout the country?

lawred2

Is this metro still happening?

salmocab

caff wrote: »

No need to have one style have each station different. Maybe run a competition between architecture students throughout the country?

That unnecessarily drives up costs.

CatInABox

lawred2 wrote: »

Is this metro still happening?

So far, yes.

Next up is a report on the public consultation, with details of all submissions. Then they'll take those on board, use them to make any alterations, and then finally proceed to seek planning permission. This should happen in Q2 2020, with approval expected in 2021.

cgcsb

CatInABox wrote: »

So far, yes.

Next up is a report on the public consultation, with details of all submissions. Then they'll take those on board, use them to make any alterations, and then finally proceed to seek planning permission. This should happen in Q2 2020, with approval expected in 2021.

Glacial pace, it must be said. We're still almost a whole year from planning being sought after 45 years of talk and reports

Muahahaha

Is a year to wait for planning permission a bit long? You'd think ABP would be able to turn it around in 6 months or less. Its frustrating how long this stuff takes.

FreudianSlippers

lawred2 wrote: »

Is this metro still happening?

I'd personally be worried about it going ahead if the world does go into recession by Q2 next year; US & Germany on the brink, I'd expect our government to do entirely the wrong thing and scrap capital expenditure in that case, making things worse.

donvito99

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

I'd personally be worried about it going ahead if the world does go into recession by Q2 next year; US & Germany on the brink, I'd expect our government to do entirely the wrong thing and scrap capital expenditure in that case, making things worse.

Cancel on the basis that thousands will be out of work, therefore less cars on the road.

Then it will be repackaged in 2032 as MetroIink-Lite and we'll start all over again. Indian filmmakers will travel to Dublin to document the Green Line's overcrowding.

CatInABox

More ground works going on.

https://twitter.com/GraemeMcQ/status/1163443572470964225

Yes, I know it doesn't mean much, but still, it's good to see.

Thelonious Monk

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

I'd personally be worried about it going ahead if the world does go into recession by Q2 next year; US & Germany on the brink, I'd expect our government to do entirely the wrong thing and scrap capital expenditure in that case, making things worse.

This is what I’ve always said. Not a chance in f*cking hell this is happening in my lifetime. The people who matter here drive their range rovers to work, I’d say FFFG would love a reason to pull out of this as any TD on the line probably doesn’t want any disruption to their constituents, as we’ve seen on the south side part of the proposed line, and every TD outside of Ireland hates money being spent in Dublin and just want bypasses and more roads built in their constituencies. Our whole system means this can never happen in the relatively short windows between rececessions.

Qrt

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

This is what I’ve always said. Not a chance in f*cking hell this is happening in my lifetime. The people who matter here drive their range rovers to work, I’d say FFFG would love a reason to pull out of this as any TD on the line probably doesn’t want any disruption to their constituents, as we’ve seen on the south side part of the proposed line, and every TD outside of Ireland hates money being spent in Dublin and just want bypasses and more roads built in their constituencies. Our whole system means this can never happen in the relatively short windows between rececessions.

In all fairness, the south side section was scrapped because of the canal, and the disruption was much worse than thought.

They’re still planning it.

plodder

madbeanman wrote: »

That Stockholm one is particularly gorgeous. It really seems distinctly Scandinavian.

I definitely think that you could do so much with what we have. If you wanted to lean into Oirishness you could make it all Celtic. If you wanted it to be more representative of Dublin then it could perhaps tell the story of Dublin. Station X takes on a particular theme relevant to the local area (like was suggested on the previous page; 1916 stuff in the O’Connell station or park themed stuff in the St. Stephen’s Green station)

I do also like the idea of the Dublin canvas peeps getting on board. Many of those designs do brighten up the city

I think Griffith Park should be named "Botanic Gardens" instead. Imagine the fun you could have with station design around that name.

CatInABox

plodder wrote: »

I think Griffith Park should be named "Botanic Gardens" instead. Imagine the fun you could have with station design around that name.

The names of all the stations are quite unimaginative in my opinion. Why go for "Glasnevin" when it could be called "Cross Guns".

Sam Russell

CatInABox wrote: »

The names of all the stations are quite unimaginative in my opinion. Why go for "Glasnevin" when it could be called "Cross Guns".

Or Whitworth, or Royal Canal, or ......

Zebra3

CatInABox wrote: »

The names of all the stations are quite unimaginative in my opinion. Why go for "Glasnevin" when it could be called "Cross Guns".

To make it easier for people to understand where stations are located.

Donaghmede > Howth Junction.

Navan Road > Phoenix Park.

Busman Paddy Lasty

Or Whitworth, or Royal Canal, or ......[/quote]

...... the nearby townland of Slutsend

Alvin Holler

Sam Russell wrote: »

CatInABox wrote: »

The names of all the stations are quite unimaginative in my opinion. Why go for "Glasnevin" when it could be called "Cross Guns".

Or Whitworth, or Royal Canal, or ......

Whitworth road pretty much connects this proposed station and drumcondra station so that would pretty confusing.

And sure people might be looking for Mullingar if they get off at royal canal station.

Sam Russell

Alvin Holler wrote: »

Whitworth road pretty much connects this proposed station and drumcondra station so that would pretty confusing.

And sure people might be looking for Mullingar if they get off at royal canal station.

Well, you could go for the 'or ....' then.

CatInABox

The crayonism of our elected officials has put the entire Metrolink project at risk. Absolutely shameful that people with no transport planning expertise are able to overrule those with years of experience.

MetroLink threatened by new plan - minister

prunudo

By all means look for additional lines but they should be stand alone lines not spurs and not be allowed to delay the implementation of the current north south line any further.

designshexagon

Additional spurs to Knocklyon and UCD are not bad ideas as such but it makes no sense to risk completely derailing the entire project when these branches can be built afterwards. With the tunnel ending just before Ranelagh, there should be space to eventually extend the tunnelling south-west and south-east without affecting the original Metro North. The last thing this project needs is another hold up.

prunudo

Spurs are a terrible idea, they limit capacity on the 'shared' section, ultimately leading to capacity constraints in the future.

designshexagon

I've seen spurs that work well and some that work badly. Certainly you cannot have trains leaving every 2 minutes on a spur line. However, I have seen spurs work decently in cities such as Brussels where the spur lines have trains leaving no less than every 5 minutes and no more than every 10 minutes allowing trains to leave every 2-3 minutes or so on the shared section.
But I agree that they are not ideal and, if possible, separate lines as opposed to 2 spurs would be a better option. But this debate should absolutely not hold up or end Metrolink. What's more important is at least having a metro in the city. Southside extensions and lines should be discussed once Swords-Charlemont is fully on track.

plodder

CatInABox wrote: »

The crayonism of our elected officials has put the entire Metrolink project at risk. Absolutely shameful that people with no transport planning expertise are able to overrule those with years of experience.

MetroLink threatened by new plan - minister

Presumably, the minister will just overrule it, and what are they going to do then? Say their 'democratic mandate' has been squashed? I've never voted for one. Is it time to get rid of these joke "assemblies" maybe? How many people know about them, and how much do they cost us?

Qrt

A Luas to Blessington? BLESSINGTON?

Zebra3

Luas to Booterstown????

Did I read that right?

salmocab

Qrt wrote: »

A Luas to Blessington? BLESSINGTON?

Only 1 hour 45 minutes standing to the city.

marno21

Luases to Blessington, Booterstown and Hazelhatch (??) seem to be politicians ideas they invented on the toilet some morning that have no basis in reality. Hazelhatch has a 4 line railway, Blessington is in the countryside and Booterstown has a railway. Where are these lines going?

This kind of uninformed, populist crayonism will lead to derailment of major projects and mean we end up with nothing at all.

It is not feasible to build multiple lines at once for various reasons. We need to learn to walk before we learn to run

salmocab

marno21 wrote: »

Luases to Blessington, Booterstown and Hazelhatch (??) seem to be politicians ideas they invented on the toilet some morning that have no basis in reality. Hazelhatch has a 4 line railway, Blessington is in the countryside and Booterstown has a railway. Where are these lines going?

This kind of uninformed, populist crayonism will lead to derailment of major projects and mean we end up with nothing at all.

It is not feasible to build multiple lines at once for various reasons. We need to learn to walk before we learn to run

Vote green luas and metro for all, except people in Ryan’s constituency who get nothing but what they already have.

reg114

Folks there will not be any metro built in Dublin in the next decade. Metro talk is the preserve of politicians during an economic boom, but fast forward to next year when Britain has bombed out of the EU, its economy is in recession and the ESRI has dramatically dropped their already meagre growth predictions for the Irish fiscal year ahead.

Britain's economic output is already at a 7 year low and that's BEFORE a hard no deal brexit. Throw in the fact that manufacturing output in the states has stalled in recent months plus Germany is sliding into a recession.

Any talk of any metro projects which would cost billions in the context of an impending global downturn is naive.

JohnC.

Dustin’s “Dart to Dingle” campaign doesn’t seem as far fetched any more.

Kellyconor1982

I fully support an SW line and a line to UCD makes sense also. Both are very viable and ultimately should be part of the transport plans in the city.

However, we need to get Metrolink 1 completed before we think about the possibilities down the line. Common sense tells anyone that it will be a great success and that once it is built, other lines will ultimately follow.

salmocab

Kellyconor1982 wrote: »

I fully support an SW line and a line to UCD makes sense also. Both are very viable and ultimately should be part of the transport plans in the city.

However, we need to get Metrolink 1 completed before we think about the possibilities down the line. Common sense tells anyone that it will be a great success and that once it is built, other lines will ultimately follow.

Not sure UCD makes much sense tbh, if it was picked up on a particular route that would be good but it’s not enough of a destination.

donvito99

List of members of this 'assembly' is found here:

https://emra.ie/members-list/

They are:

Daryl Barron Dublin City Council FF
Joe Costello Dublin City Council Lab
Mary Freehill Dublin City Council Lab
Lawrence Hemmings Dublin City Council Green
Deirdre Heney Dublin City Council FF
Vincent Jackson Dublin City Council Ind
Dermot Lacey Dublin City Council Lab
Larry O’Toole Dublin City Council SF
Jennifer Carroll MacNeill Dun Laghaoire Rathdown County Council FG
Kate Feeney Dun Laghaoire Rathdown County Council FF
Mary Hanafin Dun Laghaoire Rathdown County Council FF
Peter O’Brien Dun Laghaoire Rathdown County Council Lab
Barry Ward Dun Laghaoire Rathdown County Council FG
David Healy Fingal County Council Green
Brigid Manton Fingal County Council FF
Robert O’Donoghue Fingal County Council Lab
Fintan Brett Kildare County Council FG
Padraig McEvoy Kildare County Council Ind
Robert Power Kildare County Council FF
Catherine Fitzgerald Laois County Council FF
Aisling Moran Laois County Council FG
John Browne Longford County Council FG
Micheál Carrigy Longford County Council FG
Emma Coffey Louth County Council FF
Conor Keelan Louth County Council FF
Brian Fitzgerald Meath County Council Ind
Paddy Meade Meath County Council FG
Conor Tormey Meath County Council FF
Eamon Dooley Offaly County Council FF
Eddie Fitzpatrick Offaly County Council FF
Tony McCormack Offaly County Council FF
Francis Duffy South Dublin County Council Green
Cathal King South Dublin County Council SF
William Priestley South Dublin County Council Green
Paddy Hill Westmeath County Council FF
Aengus O’Rourke Westmeath County Council FF
Avril Cronin Wicklow County Council FG
Steven Matthews Wicklow County Council Green
Gerry Walsh Wicklow County Council FF
Irene Winters Wicklow County Council FG


Would suggest you find your local councillor and point out the magical stupidity of this.

MJohnston

donvito99 wrote: »

List of members of this 'assembly' is found here:

https://emra.ie/members-list/

They are:

Daryl Barron Dublin City Council FF
Joe Costello Dublin City Council Lab
Mary Freehill Dublin City Council Lab
Lawrence Hemmings Dublin City Council Green
Deirdre Heney Dublin City Council FF
Vincent Jackson Dublin City Council Ind
Dermot Lacey Dublin City Council Lab
Larry O’Toole Dublin City Council SF
Jennifer Carroll MacNeill Dun Laghaoire Rathdown County Council FG
Kate Feeney Dun Laghaoire Rathdown County Council FF
Mary Hanafin Dun Laghaoire Rathdown County Council FF
Peter O’Brien Dun Laghaoire Rathdown County Council Lab
Barry Ward Dun Laghaoire Rathdown County Council FG
David Healy Fingal County Council Green
Brigid Manton Fingal County Council FF
Robert O’Donoghue Fingal County Council Lab
Fintan Brett Kildare County Council FG
Padraig McEvoy Kildare County Council Ind
Robert Power Kildare County Council FF
Catherine Fitzgerald Laois County Council FF
Aisling Moran Laois County Council FG
John Browne Longford County Council FG
Micheál Carrigy Longford County Council FG
Emma Coffey Louth County Council FF
Conor Keelan Louth County Council FF
Brian Fitzgerald Meath County Council Ind
Paddy Meade Meath County Council FG
Conor Tormey Meath County Council FF
Eamon Dooley Offaly County Council FF
Eddie Fitzpatrick Offaly County Council FF
Tony McCormack Offaly County Council FF
Francis Duffy South Dublin County Council Green
Cathal King South Dublin County Council SF
William Priestley South Dublin County Council Green
Paddy Hill Westmeath County Council FF
Aengus O’Rourke Westmeath County Council FF
Avril Cronin Wicklow County Council FG
Steven Matthews Wicklow County Council Green
Gerry Walsh Wicklow County Council FF
Irene Winters Wicklow County Council FG


Would suggest you find your local councillor and point out the magical stupidity of this.

Ah, looking at the party demographics there really clears up why this was so stupid.

salmocab

Pretty sure Francis Duffy is the one who did the crayon drawing that the greens had out before the local elections.

Qrt

salmocab wrote: »

Pretty sure Francis Duffy is the one who did the crayon drawing that the greens had out before the local elections.

Was this the Luas from Tallaght to Booterstown via Dundrum or Sandyford or something?

Great idea, once we actually have reliable city centre connections first.

salmocab

Qrt wrote: »

Was this the Luas from Tallaght to Booterstown via Dundrum or Sandyford or something?

Great idea, once we actually have reliable city centre connections first.

Yep it wasn’t in itself a bad idea although he put little to no thought into the exact routes just into the general. He also obviously used not disturbing the green luas as a start point for political reasons. Really it was nothing more than a quick scribble and was way too reaching for anything we’re likely to see in the next 50 years. It also only seemed to be for the south side for some reason.

CatInABox

salmocab wrote: »

Pretty sure Francis Duffy is the one who did the crayon drawing that the greens had out before the local elections.

Yes, he's the one that pushed this joke.



Does absolutely nothing to relieve the pressure on the green line, and essentially stops the Luas to Bray extension.

Serves UCD, which sits on the best Bus Corridor in the city, with the vast amount of journeys there already on public transport.

The Knocklyon one I can understand, and I think that we should definitely look at a second metro going out there, but get the North/South alignment done first.

The orbital Luas is ridiculous.

ncounties

The orbital Luas is ridiculous.

Although the number proposed branches off Metro North Link are rediculous, I don't think you can say that a piece of orbital infrastructure is in itself ridiculous.

Orbital infrastructure would reduce the need for people to use infrastructure into and out of the town (which reduces available capacity), to get to their intended destination. The reduction in time would also lead to a greater conversion of existing car users.

However, that being said, you need the aforementioned infrastructure into and out of town in the first place! So the prioritisation of orbital projects, before the spokes of a network are completed, is ridiculous.

salmocab

CatInABox wrote: »

Yes, he's the one that pushed this joke.



Does absolutely nothing to relieve the pressure on the green line, and essentially stops the Luas to Bray extension.

Serves UCD, which sits on the best Bus Corridor in the city, with the vast amount of journeys there already on public transport.

The Knocklyon one I can understand, and I think that we should definitely look at a second metro going out there, but get the North/South alignment done first.

The orbital Luas is ridiculous.

An orbital route would be brilliant but only after everything else is sorted

matrim

CatInABox wrote: »

Yes, he's the one that pushed this joke.



Does absolutely nothing to relieve the pressure on the green line, and essentially stops the Luas to Bray extension.

Serves UCD, which sits on the best Bus Corridor in the city, with the vast amount of journeys there already on public transport.

The Knocklyon one I can understand, and I think that we should definitely look at a second metro going out there, but get the North/South alignment done first.

The orbital Luas is ridiculous.

Nice to see that the city starts at the Liffy :rolleyes:

CatInABox

An orbital route would be great, but a Luas isn't needed there, and won't be needed for at least 30 years. Build a high quality, frequent bus corridor along that route, something which could be done in a couple of years, and then when the time comes where the population density increases enough to support the Luas, upgrade.

gjim

ncounties wrote: »

Orbital infrastructure would reduce the need for people to use infrastructure into and out of the town (which reduces available capacity), to get to their intended destination. The reduction in time would also lead to a greater conversion of existing car users.

It should be WAY down the list of priorities. And rail should be the last option considered.

The demand for orbital journeys is generally lower than radial - certainly in the case of Dublin but also in most cities of comparable size as the densities are lower further from the core.

Also more than half of the journeys on a fully orbital route would be longer than directly traversing through the core. By the rules of simple geometry you could build nearly 2 radial routes going through the core with same length of track for a fully orbital route.

And for an orbital route to be effective at all, it needs to be fairly far out, which means long distances. So overall longer distances and fewer passengers will strain the cost/benefit case for a rail based orbital route.

For good reason, in all the European cities of comparable size to Dublin where I've used public transport, true orbital routes are generally served by buses (or trolley busses). The good reason being, of course, that they don't hand a box of crayons to a bunch of local councillors to design PT infrastructure.