Calls for Graham Linehan to be removed from Prime Debate on transgender issues!

Gravelly · 23-01-2019 7:41pm

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Sure I would.
Because I have done that exactly zero times up til now.

Are you saying if a transsexual man was chatting up a heterosexual woman by the way? It's not clear if you are making a contribution to this thread or just having a dig.

I wasn’t talking about you ya muppet.

Dante7 · 23-01-2019 7:54pm

During the repeal the eighth referendum, Graham Linehan was interviwed by RTE about his support for repeal. He also had articles, opinion pieces and commentary published in the Irish Times, The Journal, Loving.ie, her.ie, Time, The Guardian, amongst others. To all the people posting here who protested his appearance on Prime Time as he is not an expert on trans isaues, could you show me your posts where you objected to his very vocal commentary on the Eighth?

There were no complaints, because his supposed lack of expertise is not your problem. Your problem is that he went of the SJW script and dared have a different opinion to the mob.

Bannasidhe · 23-01-2019 7:58pm

Gravelly wrote: »

I wasn’t talking about you ya muppet.

Am I Elmo or the Cookie Monster?

Oh wait... I think I'm the Grouch.

Still not sure if you are talking about transgender men chatting up unsuspecting women or having a go at someone who isn't a muppet.

Yer Da sells Avon · 23-01-2019 8:01pm

Dante7 wrote: »

During the repeal the eighth referendum, Graham Linehan was interviwed by RTE about his support for repeal. He also had articles, opinion pieces and commentary published in the Irish Times, The Journal, Loving.ie, her.ie, Time, The Guardian, amongst others. To all the people posting here who protested his appearance on Prime Time as he is not an expert on trans isaues, could you show me your posts where you objected to his very vocal commentary on the Eighth?

There were no complaints, because his supposed lack of expertise is not your problem. Your problem is that he went of the SJW script and dared have a different opinion to the mob.

He spoke about his own family's experience and how the 8th Amendment would have affected them, had they been living in Ireland at the time. His experience of trans issues doesn't appear to extend beyond obsessively arguing on the internet about the topic, day in, day out.

ceadaoin. · 23-01-2019 8:04pm

Yer Da sells Avon wrote: »

He spoke about his own family's experience and how the 8th Amendment would have affected them, had they been living in Ireland at the time. His experience of trans issues doesn't appear to extend beyond obsessively arguing on the internet about the topic, day in, day out.

And him and his family being targeted and harrassed by trans activists?

Bannasidhe · 23-01-2019 8:06pm

Dante7 wrote: »

During the repeal the eighth referendum, Graham Linehan was interviwed by RTE about his support for repeal. He also had articles, opinion pieces and commentary published in the Irish Times, The Journal, Loving.ie, her.ie, Time, The Guardian, amongst others. To all the people posting here who protested his appearance on Prime Time as he is not an expert on trans isaues, could you show me your posts where you objected to his very vocal commentary on the Eighth?

There were no complaints, because his supposed lack of expertise is not your problem. Your problem is that he went of the SJW script and dared have a different opinion to the mob.

In 2004, Helen Linehan had an abortion as the fetus she was carrying had a fatal fetal abnormality. They just happened to be living in London at the time - if it had happened a year later when they were living in Ireland she would have had to travel to the UK to have an abortion due to the 8th.
I think in this instance Graham was speaking about his personal experience.

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/graham-and-helen-linehan-it-s-a-story-we-shouldn-t-have-to-tell-1.2403648

I haven't heard he has any personal experience of transgender people in his immediate family.

Keep in mind I said he should be allowed to speak but these are two different things - one he experienced himself and the other he is just Mr Concerned Citizen who tends to loose the plot a bit on Twitter.

Yer Da sells Avon · 23-01-2019 8:07pm

ceadaoin. wrote: »

And him and his family being targeted and harrassed by trans activists?

If the discussion had been about online harassment, then maybe he would have been qualified to discuss it. In addition to being targeted, he received a warning from the police about his own behaviour, so he'd be more qualified than most.

Will I Am Not · 23-01-2019 8:10pm

ceadaoin. wrote: »

And him and his family being targeted and harrassed by trans activists?

Probably a major factor for other people that may have been further up RTÉ’s list of potential candidates for the programme than Linehan.
It’s all well and good saying they should have this doctor or that professor on instead but there’s not much to gain and everything to lose on certain topics.

Sittingpretty · 23-01-2019 8:11pm

Honestly if a man wants to be a woman or a woman wants to be a man and they are adults, let them at it. I’ve really no issue with that. However don’t expect everyone to go along with your “feeling” and bend over backwards so that a majority can accommodate an extremely demanding minority.

If you are Mike and you now want to be Mary, I accept that and out of decency and manners I’ll refer to you as Mary as that is what makes you happy and I’ve no issue with anyone living out their days as whatever they wish. Do I want to share a communal women’s changing area with you? No. I do not. Would I every truly believe you are your chosen gender? No, I would not. Furthermore I don’t understand how your offended feelings about that should override my right to privacy and safety as an actual, real woman.

But “I feel” like a woman in a mans body. No, no you don’t, you don’t know what it feels like to be a woman because you have never been one and every chromosome in your body is male.

This is pointedly a psychological issue, not a biological one and it should be treated as such.

hatrickpatrick · 23-01-2019 8:19pm

seamus wrote: »

Sure. But this happens right now anyway. "I'm a pilot", "I'm a really big Star Wars fan too!".

People deceive eachother all the time to get a ride. Right or wrong, it's a fact.

Why just trans people? What makes this a special case that requires special care and attention? Is it happening all the time? Does it cause the deceived person to get hurt?

It's a bit different when the deceit involves a violation of someone's sexual orientation, though. If a gay man told a straight man he was a woman to get him into bed, I'm pretty sure that would count as sexual assault - it certainly has in documented cases where a woman pretended to be a man to get another woman to sleep with her.

Topgear on Dave · 23-01-2019 8:38pm

Sittingpretty wrote: »

But “I feel” like a woman in a mans body. No, no you don’t, you don’t know what it feels like to be a woman because you have never been one and every chromosome in your body is male.

This may make perfect sense to you.... but is actually a very controversial point of view.

I wouldnt like to be a woman going on twitter saying that. They'd be labelled a TERF and there'd be a pile on.

jobbridge4life · 23-01-2019 8:42pm

ceadaoin. wrote: »

And him and his family being targeted and harrassed by trans activists?

Harassment is a crime. Any and all forms of crime ought to be reported and dealt with by law enforcement.

In this regard I note that Linehan has been the subject of a verbal warning from police regarding harassment of a trans individual.

ceadaoin. · 23-01-2019 8:42pm

Topgear on Dave wrote: »

This may make perfect sense to you.... but is actually a very controversial point of view.

I wouldnt like to be a woman going on twitter saying that. They'd be labelled a TERF and there'd be a pile on.

Burn the witch, I mean terf :rolleyes:

AndrewJRenko · 23-01-2019 8:45pm

Sittingpretty wrote: »

But “I feel” like a woman in a mans body. No, no you don’t, you don’t know what it feels like to be a woman because you have never been one and every chromosome in your body is male.

Interestingly, you've never been transgender but you consider yourself qualified to tell transgender people what they feel. Do you see the irony?

ceadaoin. · 23-01-2019 8:46pm

jobbridge4life wrote: »

Harassment is a crime. Any and all forms of crime ought to be reported and dealt with by law enforcement.

In this regard I note that Linehan has been the subject of a verbal warning from police regarding harassment of a trans individual.

The "harrassment" was referring to them by their former name which was already freely available in the public domain. This was after said person had published the name and address of linehans wife's business online in an attempt to incite people to harrass her. They were both as bad a each other in that situation but only one got a warning (as far as I know)

He's not the first person to be accused of transphobia by that person either, they even targeted a group of fellow transgender people. seems like they make a career of threatening and harrassing people.

QuintusFabius · 23-01-2019 8:47pm

Sittingpretty wrote: »

Honestly if a man wants to be a woman or a woman wants to be a man and they are adults, let them at it. I’ve really no issue with that. However don’t expect everyone to go along with your “feeling” and bend over backwards so that a majority can accommodate an extremely demanding minority.

If you are Mike and you now want to be Mary, I accept that and out of decency and manners I’ll refer to you as Mary as that is what makes you happy and I’ve no issue with anyone living out their days as whatever they wish. Do I want to share a communal women’s changing area with you? No. I do not. Would I every truly believe you are your chosen gender? No, I would not. Furthermore I don’t understand how your offended feelings about that should override my right to privacy and safety as an actual, real woman.

But “I feel” like a woman in a mans body. No, no you don’t, you don’t know what it feels like to be a woman because you have never been one and every chromosome in your body is male.

This is pointedly a psychological issue, not a biological one and it should be treated as such.

Spot on.

Sittingpretty · 23-01-2019 8:50pm

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Interestingly, you've never been transgender but you consider yourself qualified to tell transgender people what they feel. Do you see the irony?

Andrew the only way I feel you could be more active on this thread would be if we were discussing trans cyclists

jobbridge4life · 23-01-2019 8:51pm

ceadaoin. wrote: »

The "harrassment" was referring to them by their former name which was already freely available in the public domain. This was after said person had published the name and address of linehans wife's business online in an attempt to incite people to harrass her.

He's not the first person to be accused of transphobia by that person either, they even targeted a group of fellow transgender people. seems like they make a career of threatening and harrassing people.

So let me get this logic straight...

Graham Linehan asserting harassment of his family is absolutely credible and appalling.

Linehan receiving a warning from the police about his own harassment of a trans individual is a fraud.

Pathetic.

ceadaoin. · 23-01-2019 8:54pm

jobbridge4life wrote: »

So let me get this logic straight...

Graham Linehan asserting harassment of his family is absolutely credible and appalling.

Linehan receiving a warning from the police about his own harassment of a trans individual is a fraud.

Pathetic.

No. I've since added that they were both as bad as each other. Seems ridiculous for the police to get involved in what is basically a Twitter spat. And why only linehan when the other person published his families private details first?

BBFAN · 23-01-2019 9:04pm

Bluefoam wrote: »

I don't have much to add to this debate, it's complex and I don't have the answers (yet)... but heres an experience I had recently:

On new years eve i was out with friends, a lady approached one of the lads, she had a great (feminine) body & was genuinely an atractive looking female... However, it became evident after a couple of minutes that she was in fact a male. The first give away was body movements, mannerisims, and interactions, with that in mind I noticed her voice (not masculine, but not feminine), then small things that were hard to fully put your finger on like facial expressions or how she formed words... Two of us twigged it (it took a while) & the third guy who she was chatting up was still chatting to her. She was being overtly sexual. He eventually removed himself from the conversation & had found the same conculsion all on his own. She was incredibly close to a woman, must have spend a fortune on (high quality?) physical alterations, & was so close to being a girl, but I'm not sure those final hurdles could be reached where they were completely recognisable as a woman.

To be honest, he/she/they were a bit of craic & we had no problem with them, but they were chatting up one of the lads, in a overtly sexual manner... If he wasn't able to figure it out himself & went home with them, he'd be entitled to be angry that he was suduced by a male acting as a female... Everyone in society has rights, including unsuspecting lads...

I may have put this together in a ham fisted way, & I'm not trying to be negative towards the person in question, but even finding the right language to use is difficult in this scenario.

Can I ask though, how do you know she still had male parts? Maybe she hadn't?

Bluefoam · 23-01-2019 9:13pm

BBFAN wrote: »

Bluefoam wrote: »

I don't have much to add to this debate, it's complex and I don't have the answers (yet)... but heres an experience I had recently:

On new years eve i was out with friends, a lady approached one of the lads, she had a great (feminine) body & was genuinely an atractive looking female... However, it became evident after a couple of minutes that she was in fact a male. The first give away was body movements, mannerisims, and interactions, with that in mind I noticed her voice (not masculine, but not feminine), then small things that were hard to fully put your finger on like facial expressions or how she formed words... Two of us twigged it (it took a while) & the third guy who she was chatting up was still chatting to her. She was being overtly sexual. He eventually removed himself from the conversation & had found the same conculsion all on his own. She was incredibly close to a woman, must have spend a fortune on (high quality?) physical alterations, & was so close to being a girl, but I'm not sure those final hurdles could be reached where they were completely recognisable as a woman.

To be honest, he/she/they were a bit of craic & we had no problem with them, but they were chatting up one of the lads, in a overtly sexual manner... If he wasn't able to figure it out himself & went home with them, he'd be entitled to be angry that he was suduced by a male acting as a female... Everyone in society has rights, including unsuspecting lads...

I may have put this together in a ham fisted way, & I'm not trying to be negative towards the person in question, but even finding the right language to use is difficult in this scenario.

Can I ask though, how do you know she still had male parts? Maybe she hadn't?

I didn't assume either way.

BBFAN · 23-01-2019 9:19pm

Bluefoam wrote: »

I didn't assume either way.

So what was the problem? If this person had transitioned fully?

Will I Am Not · 23-01-2019 9:24pm

BBFAN wrote: »

So what was the problem? If this person had transitioned fully?

Ah you’re not one of those people that call men transphobic for not having sex with women that used to be men?

seamus · 23-01-2019 9:27pm

Bluefoam wrote: »

Thats the second time you've made comments that make suggest this situation is okay and normal... it's just not, it's sexually perverse and creepy.

I'm just running with your suggestion that this is an issue that needs dealing with. If it is, then the individual is free to walk away. Its not like they've been hurt. Their ego maybe, but nothing tangible.

ceadaoin. wrote: »

I could imagine would be even more humiliating for the trans person and could potentially lead to a violent response from the partner. Is it not best to be upfront as soon as the potential for a sexual relationship becomes apparent? That doesn't mean advertising it to all and sundry but surely a potential sexual partner has the right to fully informed consent?

Ah, you see you're hitting on a crux of it now. It would be advisable for a trans person to be upfront with any sexual partners, yes. Too many homophobes out there who would lose the head and get violent.
But what constitutes fully informed consent? I think the disclosure of any material fact that could be hazardous to your partner's health would be an obvious. What else? Criminal records? Previous but cured STDs? Previous sexual partners? Previous homosexual encounters? How far does informed consent have to go? What's the benchmark, and does someone's trans status count? And if yes, why?
I'd personally be more concerned if a girl's Dad was a convicted crime boss than if she was trans. Shiuld she be obliged to reveal this information up front?
Where does informed consent end?

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

It's a bit different when the deceit involves a violation of someone's sexual orientation, though. If a gay man told a straight man he was a woman to get him into bed, I'm pretty sure that would count as sexual assault - it certainly has in documented cases where a woman pretended to be a man to get another woman to sleep with her.

These are slight deviations though. They are people actually pretending to be someone else. There's an intent to deceive. The same intent cannot be said to exist if one person is trans.

Franz Von Peppercorn · 23-01-2019 9:28pm

jobbridge4life wrote: »

Harassment is a crime. Any and all forms of crime ought to be reported and dealt with by law enforcement.

In this regard I note that Linehan has been the subject of a verbal warning from police regarding harassment of a trans individual.

Actually he wasn’t. He was reported by the trans activist and the police showed up but nothing happened. The police basically act as a private police force for some groups.

jonnny68 · 23-01-2019 9:29pm

millennial snowflakes and the PC brigade, another day something else to be offended by, its a disease.

Franz Von Peppercorn · 23-01-2019 9:36pm

Yer Da sells Avon wrote: »

He spoke about his own family's experience and how the 8th Amendment would have affected them, had they been living in Ireland at the time. His experience of trans issues doesn't appear to extend beyond obsessively arguing on the internet about the topic, day in, day out.

Actually self identification, as an example, affects all biological women, as did the abortion laws. Linehan has the same relationship to biological women in both cases, father, son, husband, possibly brother.

And that’s where graham waded in - he accepts that gender dysphoria exists but opposes some of the ideas like self identification (which hurts women) and hormone treatment for children etc.

kowloon · 23-01-2019 9:55pm

jonnny68 wrote: »

millennial snowflakes and the PC brigade, another day something else to be offended by, its a disease.

Do you have to be a millennial or can anyone join the pc brigade? Asking for a friend.

AndrewJRenko · 23-01-2019 10:05pm

Sittingpretty wrote: »

Andrew the only way I feel you could be more active on this thread would be if we were discussing trans cyclists

That would be fairly intense, wouldn't it? But anyway, did you get to think about why you can tell transgender people what they feel, but transgender people can't tell others that they feel they are really the opposite gender?

jonnny68 wrote: »

millennial snowflakes and the PC brigade, another day something else to be offended by, its a disease.

It's really quite funny to see the irony here - what we actually have is a pile of people rushing to be offended by people who wear different clothes, using a tiny number of extremely unusual international cases as justification, while they ignore the sound track record of self-identification here in Ireland, and the very real dangers to women coming from other sources, but they don't matter much apparently.

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Actually self identification, as an example, affects all biological women, as did the abortion laws. Linehan has the same relationship to biological women in both cases, father, son, husband, possibly brother.

And that’s where graham waded in - he accepts that gender dysphoria exists but opposes some of the ideas like self identification (which hurts women) and hormone treatment for children etc.

How has self-identification hurt women in Ireland in the two years since it happened here?

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Actually he wasn’t. He was reported by the trans activist and the police showed up but nothing happened. The police basically act as a private police force for some groups.

Not quite 'nothing happened' - he was explicitly warned by the police to stop contacting a particular person.
https://www.independent.ie/entertainment/television/tv-news/police-speak-to-father-ted-cocreator-after-twitter-transphobia-row-37393122.html

BBFAN · 23-01-2019 10:10pm

Will I Am Not wrote: »

Ah you’re not one of those people that call men transphobic for not having sex with women that used to be men?

I never called anyone any names. Just wondering why a man wouldn't have sex with a woman he found extremely attractive and was having a lovely time with?

Please explain?

Calls for Graham Linehan to be removed from Prime Debate on transgender issues!

Comments