Calls for Graham Linehan to be removed from Prime Debate on transgender issues!

Bluefoam

I don't have much to add to this debate, it's complex and I don't have the answers (yet)... but heres an experience I had recently:

On new years eve i was out with friends, a lady approached one of the lads, she had a great (feminine) body & was genuinely an atractive looking female... However, it became evident after a couple of minutes that she was in fact a male. The first give away was body movements, mannerisims, and interactions, with that in mind I noticed her voice (not masculine, but not feminine), then small things that were hard to fully put your finger on like facial expressions or how she formed words... Two of us twigged it (it took a while) & the third guy who she was chatting up was still chatting to her. She was being overtly sexual. He eventually removed himself from the conversation & had found the same conculsion all on his own. She was incredibly close to a woman, must have spend a fortune on (high quality?) physical alterations, & was so close to being a girl, but I'm not sure those final hurdles could be reached where they were completely recognisable as a woman.

To be honest, he/she/they were a bit of craic & we had no problem with them, but they were chatting up one of the lads, in a overtly sexual manner... If he wasn't able to figure it out himself & went home with them, he'd be entitled to be angry that he was suduced by a male acting as a female... Everyone in society has rights, including unsuspecting lads...

I may have put this together in a ham fisted way, & I'm not trying to be negative towards the person in question, but even finding the right language to use is difficult in this scenario.

Calhoun

Sir Oxman wrote: »

https://terfisaslur.com/


This is trans activism

Clarity: It's a collection of online and real-life trans activism.
This may tie in with what is going down online and it's influence on kids.
Notice most of the sections contain no discussion but repeating of dogma and the shutting down of anyone, ANYONE who has an opposite view or one that does not perfectly align with theirs.
Immediately, those are branded nazis, the enemy and "terfs"


these are the people piling on to the likes of Graham Linehan

I believe there was also threats of rape to feminists who do not agree with Trans-folk. Which would be the exact type of people that would be fighting with Graham.

gmisk

Bluefoam wrote: »

I don't have much to add to this debate, it's complex and I don't have the answers (yet)... but heres an experience I had recently:

On new years eve i was out with friends, a lady approached one of the lads, she had a great (feminine) body & was genuinely an atractive looking female... However, it became evident after a couple of minutes that she was in fact a male. The first give away was body movements, mannerisims, and interactions, with that in mind I noticed her voice (not masculine, but not feminine), then small things that were hard to fully put your finger on like facial expressions or how she formed words... Two of us twigged it (it took a while) & the third guy who she was chatting up was still chatting to her. She was being overtly sexual. He eventually removed himself from the conversation & had found the same conculsion all on his own. She was incredibly close to a woman, must have spend a fortune on (high quality?) physical alterations, & was so close to being a girl, but I'm not sure those final hurdles could be reached where they were completely recognisable as a woman.

To be honest, he/she/they were a bit of craic & we had no problem with them, but they were chatting up one of the lads, in a overtly sexual manner... If he wasn't able to figure it out himself & went home with them, he'd be entitled to be angry that he was suduced by a male acting as a female... Everyone in society has rights, including unsuspecting lads...

I may have put this together in a ham fisted way, & I'm not trying to be negative towards the person in question, but even finding the right language to use is difficult in this scenario.

Are you sure you weren't just watching the crying game?


WHAT DO WE WANT?
RIGHTS FOR UNSUSPECTING LADS!!!
WHEN DO WE WANT EM!
NOW!


What are you suggesting a badge? or how about a pink triangle?


I have been chatted up by someone who it turns out used to be a woman but is now a man, your mate should be flattered.

Wrongway1985

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Choosing him for Prime Time was a poor decision, solely designed to cause controversy.

You still think it was a poor decision? tbf it was hardly a footnote worth addressing after all that hullabaloo, only tuned in meself due to the attention the guy was getting and see what kind of monster that he was made out. Didn't feel he was out of place on the show which I was under the impression was going to be a debate in the first place. Those people who went begging to RTE for censorship should be ashamed of themselves.

Bluefoam

gmisk wrote: »

Are you sure you weren't just watching the crying game?


WHAT DO WE WANT?
RIGHTS FOR UNSUSPECTING LADS!!!
WHEN DO WE WANT EM!
NOW!


What are you suggesting a badge? or how about a pink triangle?

I'm not suggesting anything... just explaining a scenario. You're the one who seems adjitated...

gmisk

Bluefoam wrote: »

I'm not suggesting anything... just explaining a scenario. You're the one who seems adjitated...

But how are you going to help the unsuspecting lads?
Not agitated at all, I also didnt anywhere suggest you were I am just curious.

Bluefoam

gmisk wrote: »

But how are you going to help the unsuspecting lads?
Not agitated at all, I also didnt anywhere suggest you were I am just curious.

I think you should probably read my post... I don't claim to have any answers nor do I want to put forward any solutions to this debate, I'm just raising it as a point of discussion.

gmisk

Bluefoam wrote: »

I think you should probably read my post... I don't claim to have any answers nor do I want to put forward any solutions to this debate, I'm just raising it as a point of discussion.

I read your post.
So you don't have any answers or any solutions, fine.


As I said in my initial response
I have been chatted up by someone who it turns out used to be a woman but is now a man, your mate should be flattered.

Bannasidhe

When my son was a little fella he was in primary school in Sheffield in a very working class area. One day as I was collecting him from school (it was a mixed school) I noticed he was chatting to another child who was wearing a yellow skirt. I asked who that was and he said 'That's Lucy. She has a boy's body but it's wrong cos she is really a girl'. And he completely accepted that.
That was over 25 years ago looong before any nonsense about PC and Woke and all the other yada yada.
Transactivism did not exist. Transgender did.

Lucy was the very first person with gender dysphoria I had ever met. And yes, at first I was a bit...?!?!... but seeing my 5 year old son so completely blase and accepting that there had been 'a mistake made in her mummy's tummy' made me cop myself on.

Lucy's parents were a lovely young Welsh couple a bit puggalised by their 'son's' absolute insistence that he was really she. From the time Lucy could express herself she insisted her body was wrong. That a mistake had been made. She refused to refer to herself as a 'he', or answer to her 'male' name - in every way she seemed to be and acted like a young girl - every way but biological.
So they accepted that.
They didn't understand it.
But they said the absolute obvious distress Lucy suffered if forced (and it did take force) to be a boy was heartbreaking and they would not put her- or their family - through that. Because they loved their child. They were not pandering to some passing fancy - Lucy had always been adamant that she was in the wrong body.

Lucy presented to the world as female always and began transitioning aged 18 - surgery, hormones, etc. It took years.
She is now a happily married woman in her 30s having gone through all the considerable legal and medical hoops to get recognised officially as female.

Lucy was lucky. Her parent's accepted what she said - and yes, initially they had dismissed it and waited for her to grow out of it, and worried about her being bullied, and how best to protect her etc. But their primary concern was the effect on Lucy's mental health if they forced her to be what society said a biologically male should be.

As impressed as I was with Lucy's parents - her classmates blew me away. Not one of them ever bullied her. They completely accepted that Lucy was a girl and the only time she got teased was when she used to sulk if her beloved yellow skirt was in the wash so she had to wear a different one to school.
These kids came from all backgrounds and all religions (or none).

All kids with gender dysphoria should have the support and acceptance Lucy had growing up.

gmisk

Bannasidhe wrote: »

When my son was a little fella he was in primary school in Sheffield in a very working class area. One day as I was collecting him from school (it was a mixed school) I noticed he was chatting to another child who was wearing a yellow skirt. I asked who that was and he said 'That's Lucy. She has a boy's body but it's wrong cos she is really a girl'. And he completely accepted that.
That was over 25 years ago looong before any nonsense about PC and Woke and all the other yada yada.
Transactivism did not exist. Transgender did.

Lucy was the very first person with gender dysphoria I had ever met. And yes, at first I was a bit...?!?!... but seeing my 5 year old son so completely blase and accepting that there had been 'a mistake made in her mummy's tummy' made me cop myself on.

Lucy's parents were a lovely young Welsh couple a bit puggalised by their 'son's' absolute insistence that he was really she. From the time Lucy could express herself she insisted her body was wrong. That a mistake had been made. She refused to refer to herself as a 'he', or answer to her 'male' name - in every way she seemed to be and acted like a young girl - every way but biological.
So they accepted that.
They didn't understand it.
But they said the absolute obvious distress Lucy suffered if forced (and it did take force) to be a boy was heartbreaking and they would not put her- or their family - through that. Because they loved their child. They were not pandering to some passing fancy - Lucy had always been adamant that she was in the wrong body.

Lucy presented to the world as female always and began transitioning aged 18 - surgery, hormones, etc. It took years.
She is now a happily married woman in her 30s having gone through all the considerable legal and medical hoops to get recognised officially as female.

Lucy was lucky. Her parent's accepted what she said - and yes, initially they had dismissed it and waited for her to grow out of it, and worried about her being bullied, and how best to protect her etc. But their primary concern was the effect on Lucy's mental health if they forced her to be what society said a biologically male should be.

As impressed as I was with Lucy's parents - her classmates blew me away. Not one of them ever bullied her. They completely accepted that Lucy was a girl and the only time she got teased was when she used to sulk if her beloved yellow skirt was in the wash so she had to wear a different one to school.
These kids came from all backgrounds and all religions (or none).

All kids with gender dysphoria should have the support and acceptance Lucy had growing up.

I would really like to like this post more than once.

How Soon Is Now

gmisk wrote: »

I would really like to like this post more than once.

Thank it once unthank it then thank it again!

seamus

Bluefoam wrote: »

I think you should probably read my post... I don't claim to have any answers nor do I want to put forward any solutions to this debate, I'm just raising it as a point of discussion.

Ultimately I don't really see the issue.

A transwoman is going to be intensely aware of who she is.

She's not going to go home with some randomer on a first date and just expect him to "be cool", any more than an amputee or a burn victim would.

But if she doesn't, then the guy is perfectly free to go, "Oh right. Yeah, nah, sorry that's not for me".

I understand that a person can feel betrayed that the person they were making sexy eyes at across the bar turns out to not be what they were expecting. But you roll the dice.

As an "issue" that needs dealing with, I expect it basically doesn't exist. Trans people aren't out looking to "hoodwink" unsuspecting people into sexual encounters. Quite the opposite; at best the other person will shrug and say, "Yeah whatevs, I don't care". At worst they will end up being beaten to death. They don't go around seducing straight people for sh1ts n giggles. You may as play russian roulette.

So even in the encounter you posit, if it ever got further than some heavy groping before she put a stop to it, handed over her number and said, "Talk to you tomorrow", I'd be very surprised.

gmisk

How Soon Is Now wrote: »

Thank it once unthank it then thank it again!

Bluefoam

seamus wrote: »

I understand that a person can feel betrayed that the person they were making sexy eyes at across the bar turns out to not be what they were expecting. But you roll the dice.

I see massive social implications in the sentence above... it's never actually quite as simple as you make out.

Plus, I have 100% gone home a slept with a person with a physical disfigurement (on first meeting). It's not the same thing.

James Brown

Nah. I think anyone should be free to dress as they like and consider themselves whatever they like. Medication and surgery should only be for adults and if you're a transgender person be sure the person hitting on you or vice versa is aware. It's only decent.

I'm reminded of the rape scene from 'Revenge of the nerds' where your one thinks it's her boyfriend dressed as Darth Vader, but finds out it's one of the nerds half way through the session, (it was all in fun).

conorhal

valoren wrote: »

What struck me was the increase in numbers. I believe it was something like 6 cases in 2003 to over 2300 or so last year in the UK according to the Professor whose proposed research was quashed?

Could broadband internet from 2003 and within a few years instant internet access on smart phones which even prepubescent kids had explain the exponential increase? By having instant access to a litany of information during a significant developmental stage of their lives it could clearly have an impact.

When considering why this 'explosion' in those suddenly identifying as trans is occurring, it's probably more instructive to look at those diagnosed as suffering 'rapid onset gender dysphoria’ who make up much of this phenomenon .

I looked at some of the variable data from Dr. Lisa Littman's study on the phenomenon.
Rather unusually the condition seems to effect females (80% of those diagnosed with rapid onset gender dysphoria), and you have to wonder why?
1) Most of the female subjects were borderline or did not identify as gender non-conforming until puberty.
So for many declaring themselves trans, it is a condition that seems to occur mostly to girls during those 'awkward teenage years' commonly associated with girls suffering from 'body image'issues.
2) 21% of those identifying as trans were friends with someone that also came out as trans and had on average 3.5 trans friends. Less than 1% of those surveyed were the first of their peer group to come out as trans, that would suggest a certain degree of peer group influence.
3) You were bang on the money when you wondered if social media usage and influence might be a factor, it was shown to be heavily so. And we know women and girls are significantly higher users of social media then boys.
4) Now one might assume that coming out as trans would result in bullying and social exclusion. Counter intuitively, it seems that the opposite is the case.
60% of parents in Lipmann’s study reported that coming out as trans actually increased the child’s popularity in school and reduced their experience of bullying.

So young girls and women that make up the bulk of this 'explosion in the rate of those identifying as trans' gain greater social acceptance, both from their peer groups and in online affirmation.
Now it begins to look like a trend made attractive by the attention, social rewards, positive affirmations and protection that vulnerable young women seek.

This certainly makes me question why you would expose children to mental illness in the national curriculum as of this year.

ceadaoin.

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Do you believe everything you read in the papers?

Unless you know what proportion of pools have unisex changing rooms in the first place, you (and the authors) have no basis for their claim that they are more dangerous. They may well just be more common.

But well done on swallowing an article designed to stir things up. That's a great example of why Brexit happened BTW.

Actually it does say. So they do have a basis. It's from the times, not a **** stirring tabloid BTW.

Unisex facilities account for less than half the changing areas across the UK,

So less than half are unisex but 90% of incidents take place in the them

AndrewJRenko

Uncharted wrote: »

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

The Wexford mother on Prime Time couldn't be further from your jaded stereotype of 'woke' parents. Would you like to find another way to blame her for her trans child?

Clutch away before you drown. Good lad.

You're embarrassing yourself.

So no explanation then for the Wexford case then - maybe a small number of kids are trans I guess, regardless of how woke or otherwise their parents are.

Bannasidhe

ceadaoin. wrote: »

Actually it does say. So they do have a basis. It's from the times, not a **** stirring tabloid BTW.



So less than half are unisex but 90% of incidents take place in the them

I am not disputing the figure but I haven't seen any evidence that anyone transgender was involved in these assaults.
I suspect that most- if not all - these were carried out by cis men.

ELM327

Bannasidhe wrote: »

When my son was a little fella he was in primary school in Sheffield in a very working class area. One day as I was collecting him from school (it was a mixed school) I noticed he was chatting to another child who was wearing a yellow skirt. I asked who that was and he said 'That's Lucy. She has a boy's body but it's wrong cos she is really a girl'. And he completely accepted that.
That was over 25 years ago looong before any nonsense about PC and Woke and all the other yada yada.
Transactivism did not exist. Transgender did.

Lucy was the very first person with gender dysphoria I had ever met. And yes, at first I was a bit...?!?!... but seeing my 5 year old son so completely blase and accepting that there had been 'a mistake made in her mummy's tummy' made me cop myself on.

Lucy's parents were a lovely young Welsh couple a bit puggalised by their 'son's' absolute insistence that he was really she. From the time Lucy could express herself she insisted her body was wrong. That a mistake had been made. She refused to refer to herself as a 'he', or answer to her 'male' name - in every way she seemed to be and acted like a young girl - every way but biological.
So they accepted that.
They didn't understand it.
But they said the absolute obvious distress Lucy suffered if forced (and it did take force) to be a boy was heartbreaking and they would not put her- or their family - through that. Because they loved their child. They were not pandering to some passing fancy - Lucy had always been adamant that she was in the wrong body.

Lucy presented to the world as female always and began transitioning aged 18 - surgery, hormones, etc. It took years.
She is now a happily married woman in her 30s having gone through all the considerable legal and medical hoops to get recognised officially as female.

Lucy was lucky. Her parent's accepted what she said - and yes, initially they had dismissed it and waited for her to grow out of it, and worried about her being bullied, and how best to protect her etc. But their primary concern was the effect on Lucy's mental health if they forced her to be what society said a biologically male should be.

As impressed as I was with Lucy's parents - her classmates blew me away. Not one of them ever bullied her. They completely accepted that Lucy was a girl and the only time she got teased was when she used to sulk if her beloved yellow skirt was in the wash so she had to wear a different one to school.
These kids came from all backgrounds and all religions (or none).

All kids with gender dysphoria should have the support and acceptance Lucy had growing up.

This is the perfect scenario.
I'm all for Trans rights, I'll call anyone by their preferred pronoun, dress however you like etc. I'm a member of the LGBTQI inclusion team at work and have worked with charities like Belong To and GSI in the past.

But expecting people to be OK with medicating or mutilating preteens is just wrong. If it's actually gender dysphoria then you can get the surgery at 18. And be addressed as whatever gender or none you prefer until then.




Great program, by the way. I wouldn't be a normal prime time viewer but I tuned in as I hoped that RTÉ wouldn't bow to the SJWs demanding the exclusion of certain points of view. Both sides should be heard. And both made some good points. The older woman who said she identified as a boy when she was younger but didnt get the surgery and is now happy as a woman, and the scientist who was forbidden from doing a study were the two most interesting parts IMO

ceadaoin.

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I am not disputing the figure but I haven't seen any evidence that anyone transgender was involved in these assaults.
I suspect that most- if not all - these were carried out by cis men.

I never said it was transgender people? Was just originally disputing the claim that gendered facilities don't stop assaults so making them unisex doesn't cause any harm, when they clearly do go someway towards reducing them. And the poster I replied to was disputing the figure

FutureGuy

ELM327 wrote: »

This is the perfect scenario.
I'm all for Trans rights, I'll call anyone by their preferred pronoun, dress however you like etc. I'm a member of the LGBTQI inclusion team at work and have worked with charities like Belong To and GSI in the past.

But expecting people to be OK with medicating or mutilating preteens is just wrong. If it's actually gender dysphoria then you can get the surgery at 18. And be addressed as whatever gender or none you prefer until then.




Great program, by the way. I wouldn't be a normal prime time viewer but I tuned in as I hoped that RTwouldn't bow to the SJWs demanding the exclusion of certain points of view. Both sides should be heard. And both made some good points. The older woman who said she identified as a boy when she was younger but didnt get the surgery and is now happy as a woman, and the scientist who was forbidden from doing a study were the two most interesting parts IMO

Great post. In relation to the bolded art, Jordan Peterson rightly commented that this will come to a grinding halt in a number of years (cant remember the figure he quoted, 10-15 years I think) when the lawsuits start.

Bannasidhe

ELM327 wrote: »

This is the perfect scenario.
I'm all for Trans rights, I'll call anyone by their preferred pronoun, dress however you like etc. I'm a member of the LGBTQI inclusion team at work and have worked with charities like Belong To and GSI in the past.

But expecting people to be OK with medicating or mutilating preteens is just wrong. If it's actually gender dysphoria then you can get the surgery at 18. And be addressed as whatever gender or none you prefer until then.




Great program, by the way. I wouldn't be a normal prime time viewer but I tuned in as I hoped that RTÉ wouldn't bow to the SJWs demanding the exclusion of certain points of view. Both sides should be heard. And both made some good points. The older woman who said she identified as a boy when she was younger but didnt get the surgery and is now happy as a woman, and the scientist who was forbidden from doing a study were the two most interesting parts IMO

I'm not comfortable with the idea of administering drugs - bar medically necessary obviously - to children whose bodies are still developing tbh, never mind surgical procedures. I think children with gender dysphoria should be able to live and present and be considered as their real gender and only start medical/surgical intervention when their bodies are mature enough.

However, I can also see how for someone like Lucy - who never doubted for a second - how awful it must be to inhabit a body that is maturing into hairy adulthood. Puberty is hard enough without having your 'wrong' body growing into a fully mature version of all that you are not. I can understand how that would have a potentially devastating affect on a person't mental health.

It's a hard one isn't it.

sabat

ELM327 wrote: »

This is the perfect scenario.

Isn't it just? We're lucky the poster was able to keep in touch with one of their son's primary school classmates across different countries and several decades, keeping track of the minutiae of their legal and medical issues so they could tell us all about it.

ELM327

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I'm not comfortable with the idea of administering drugs - bar medically necessary obviously - to children whose bodies are still developing tbh, never mind surgical procedures. I think children with gender dysphoria should be able to live and present and be considered as their real gender and only start medical/surgical intervention when their bodies are mature enough.

However, I can also see how for someone like Lucy - who never doubted for a second - how awful it must be to inhabit a body that is maturing into hairy adulthood. Puberty is hard enough without having your 'wrong' body growing into a fully mature version of all that you are not. I can understand how that would have a potentially devastating affect on a person't mental health.

It's a hard one isn't it.

It is, and it isn't.


If I had to or was allowed to make life altering decisions at 12-16 I'd be in a much different place than I am now. My outlook on life, my views of myself and others, and how I relate to the world, my body image, I even flirted with the idea that I was trans when I was younger but rejected it quickly.


You cannot legally sign a contract until the age of consent and you should not be able to change gender (irreversibly) before that age too. By all means dress in clothes of the other gender, or inform people of your preferred name, pronoun, etc.

ELM327

sabat wrote: »

Isn't it just? We're lucky the poster was able to keep in touch with one of their son's primary school classmates across different countries and several decades, keeping track of the minutiae of their legal and medical issues so they could tell us all about it.

We can but take it at face value. It is an online discussion board, and whether or not it was true in that specific instance, it is true in general that children are more tolerant of diversity than their parents, generation by generation.

Gravelly

sabat wrote: »

Isn't it just? We're lucky the poster was able to keep in touch with one of their son's primary school classmates across different countries and several decades, keeping track of the minutiae of their legal and medical issues so they could tell us all about it.

Bannasidhe

ceadaoin. wrote: »

I never said it was transgender people? Was just originally disputing the claim that gendered facilities don't stop assaults so making them unisex doesn't cause any harm, when they clearly do go someway towards reducing them. And the poster I replied to was disputing the figure

I am just confused as to what assaults in unisex changing facilities have to do with people who are transgender unless it can be demonstrated that at least some of these assaults were carried out by people who are transgender.

Bannasidhe

sabat wrote: »

Isn't it just? We're lucky the poster was able to keep in touch with one of their son's primary school classmates across different countries and several decades, keeping track of the minutiae of their legal and medical issues so they could tell us all about it.

It's not my fault the idea of remaining friends with people for decades is beyond you.

I even remained friends with people I went to primary school with myself and that is a lot longer than 25 years ago.

Do you find it difficult to do that?

Can't pick up the phone?
Send an email?
Get on a plane and visit?
Whatsapp?
Or even - gasp - write a letter?

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

seamus wrote: »

The Dutch protocol deals with this issue and seems to be the most sensible approach for the time being. The 80/20 split is suspect anyway. The most recent data from the Netherlands leaves it about 50/50. It's hard to tell because nearly a third of those in the study dropped out.

Prepubescent children are not prescribed blockers in this country. But that doesn't mean they aren't permitted to live as the gender they identify with. And that's not going to do any harm.

So honestly I can't see the hysteria about this at all. If it turns out one day that they can accurately identify which prepubescent children with GD will go on to become adolescents with GD, then I would have no issue with treatment starting earlier.

For some (me included), the issue isn’t just that the prepubescent child might change their mind if left alone to mature.

From a cold, scientific viewpoint, there’s no way to ethically run a clinical trial to ascertain the affects of these blockers on children. If a long-term study was given the green light, you would have to recruit children to be guinea pigs, not knowing if their future health will affected. Who would gamble with their child’s health like that?

Unfortunately much the medical knowledge we have today is because of deeply unethical experiments carried out on humans in the past. But we don’t do that now or at least that’s the hope. How would you ascertain whether giving these blockers to prepubescent children is safe or not without trials?

Though the drugs are different, we have some idea of what happens from the doping of underage female swimmers in East Germany in the 1970s and 1980s. The drug used, oral-turinabol, essentially made these girls cross the gender barrier. The various health problems suffered by these former athletes are well documented. Do we know that this wouldn’t happen to developing bodies with the drugs given to adults to help them transition?