Calls for Graham Linehan to be removed from Prime Debate on transgender issues!

seamus · 23-01-2019 5:26pm

Bluefoam wrote: »

I see massive social implications in the sentence above... it's never actually quite as simple as you make out.

What social implications?

The implication here is that if you go home with someone, but the situation changes and turns out to not be what you thought it was, then it's a bit ****ty of the other party to have not given you a heads-up.

Eh, that's about it. You don't have to go through with it. You are free to walk away.

James1888 · 23-01-2019 5:29pm

Gravelly wrote: »

Faugheen wrote: »

What does Graham Linehan actually know about the subject though?

He's not trans. He has no experience of being trans and he hasn't anything in the way of research or study into trans issues.

He literally just rants because he doesn't like it. What on Earth does that do for anyone only piss off and add to the stigma that trans people have to endure?

If he studied trans issues academically or experienced what trans people go through, and he had something to back up his rants with, then we'd be having a different conversation.

Having him on wasn't about providing 'balance', it was about getting a contrarian view in a bid to cause a bit of controversy even though he literally has nothing in the way of experience in the issues they face.

I don't have any experience with trans people. I don't know any personally, I don't work with any and I've never studied it. Should I be allowed to be given a platform to rant about why people who rant about it are wrong?

As far as I'm aware, Linehan's only knowledge of the subject is that he has been the victim of a campaign of harassment by "trans activists" - but he is as entitled as anyone else to give his opinion on a subject that is a cause of concern to many. I wasn't the one trying to shut down Linehans, the bould Andrew was - with the claim that he shouldn't be allowed to speak on it because he has no experience (a view you seem to share) - that's just a teeny bit hypocritical when the same Andrew was holding forth on what 4 or 5 year olds know or don't know, when it appears he knows as much about them as I do about Northern Hairy-nosed wombats.

Exactly he is entitled to express his views, as are anyone on here, these people that are opposed to him expressing his views are the antifa like mob who try to shut anyone done who dosnt agree with their narrative, when in reality their to stupid to realise that they are the real facists!

Bluefoam · 23-01-2019 5:30pm

seamus wrote: »

What social implications?

The implication here is that if you go home with someone, but the situation changes and turns out to not be what you thought it was, then it's a bit ****ty of the other party to have not given you a heads-up.

Eh, that's about it. You don't have to go through with it. You are free to walk away.

The situation wouldn't be changing... the lack of honesty would be exposed... a sexual encounter where one party is being decieved is not a healthy situation. To counter this, all trans people would need to be upfront about their change with many people they meet. This cannot be controlled or guarunteed, so difficult situations will arise.

Bannasidhe · 23-01-2019 5:31pm

Bluefoam wrote: »

The situation wouldn't be changing... the lack of honesty would be exposed... a sexual encounter where one party is being decieved is not a healthy situation. To counter this, all trans people would need to be upfront about their change with many people they meet. This cannot be controlled or guarunteed, so difficult situations will arise.

What colour star or triangle do you think it should be obligatory for them to wear?

Wrongway1985 · 23-01-2019 5:34pm

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I am just confused as to what assaults in unisex changing facilities have to do with people who are transgender unless it can be demonstrated that at least some of these assaults were carried out by people who are transgender.

I think it's suggested the Unisex facilities are more commonplace/opening to mostly appease transgenders unless I'm reading incorrectly.

Bluefoam · 23-01-2019 5:35pm

Bannasidhe wrote: »

What colour star or triangle do you think it should be obligatory for them to wear?

Again, I did not say that. Don't associate your words with me. I am having a discussion, trying to work out complex situations and you are comparing my comments to the holocaust... grow up.

Gravelly · 23-01-2019 5:42pm

Bannasidhe wrote: »

What colour star or triangle do you think it should be obligatory for them to wear?

Ah, Godwin, tis yourself - I was expecting you.

seamus · 23-01-2019 5:42pm

Bluefoam wrote: »

The situation wouldn't be changing... the lack of honesty would be exposed... a sexual encounter where one party is being decieved is not a healthy situation.

Sure. But this happens right now anyway. "I'm a pilot", "I'm a really big Star Wars fan too!".

People deceive eachother all the time to get a ride. Right or wrong, it's a fact.

To counter this, all trans people would need to be upfront about their change with many people they meet. This cannot be controlled or guarunteed, so difficult situations will arise.

Why just trans people? What makes this a special case that requires special care and attention? Is it happening all the time? Does it cause the deceived person to get hurt?

AndrewJRenko · 23-01-2019 5:53pm

Wrongway1985 wrote: »

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I am just confused as to what assaults in unisex changing facilities have to do with people who are transgender unless it can be demonstrated that at least some of these assaults were carried out by people who are transgender.

I think it's suggested the Unisex facilities are more commonplace/opening to mostly appease transgenders unless I'm reading incorrectly.

Some people just can't resist a bit of paranoia. If you try talking to any swimming pool manager, you will find that the reason for "changing village" facilities (which are actually not unisex changing rooms at all) is that gendered changing rooms tend to be overused or underused depending on the time of day. 'Changing village' are well used regardless of the gender mix of the customers.

AndrewJRenko · 23-01-2019 6:02pm

conorhal wrote: »

valoren wrote: »

What struck me was the increase in numbers. I believe it was something like 6 cases in 2003 to over 2300 or so last year in the UK according to the Professor whose proposed research was quashed?

Could broadband internet from 2003 and within a few years instant internet access on smart phones which even prepubescent kids had explain the exponential increase? By having instant access to a litany of information during a significant developmental stage of their lives it could clearly have an impact.

So young girls and women that make up the bulk of this 'explosion in the rate of those identifying as trans' gain greater social acceptance, both from their peer groups and in online affirmation.
Now it begins to look like a trend made attractive by the attention, social rewards, positive affirmations and protection that vulnerable young women seek.

For the sake of debate, let's say that you're 100% correct on this. Nothing in what you've indicates that these cases are not very real for the children concerned, and they still need appropriate supports to get through this.

ohnonotgmail · 23-01-2019 6:07pm

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Some people just can't resist a bit of paranoia. If you try talking to any swimming pool manager, you will find that the reason for "changing village" facilities (which are actually not unisex changing rooms at all) is that gendered changing rooms tend to be overused or underused depending on the time of day. 'Changing village' are well used regardless of the gender mix of the customers.

I presume these communal changing rooms have individual cubicles?

Wrongway1985 · 23-01-2019 6:10pm

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Some people just can't resist a bit of paranoia. If you try talking to any swimming pool manager, you will find that the reason for "changing village" facilities (which are actually not unisex changing rooms at all) is that gendered changing rooms tend to be overused or underused depending on the time of day. 'Changing village' are well used regardless of the gender mix of the customers.

Paranoid is what you certainly are, I was trying to make sense of the post.

AndrewJRenko · 23-01-2019 6:14pm

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Some people just can't resist a bit of paranoia. If you try talking to any swimming pool manager, you will find that the reason for "changing village" facilities (which are actually not unisex changing rooms at all) is that gendered changing rooms tend to be overused or underused depending on the time of day. 'Changing village' are well used regardless of the gender mix of the customers.

I presume these communal changing rooms have individual cubicles?

Yes, certainly in the few that I've seen in Ireland.

James1888 · 23-01-2019 6:15pm

Wrongway1985 wrote: »

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Some people just can't resist a bit of paranoia. If you try talking to any swimming pool manager, you will find that the reason for "changing village" facilities (which are actually not unisex changing rooms at all) is that gendered changing rooms tend to be overused or underused depending on the time of day. 'Changing village' are well used regardless of the gender mix of the customers.

Paranoid is what you certainly are, I was trying to make sense of the post.

Exactly, they are what they are unisex changing rooms lol for a man that goes round speaking to swimming pool managers all the time I thought you would of known this. Changing villages = unisex changing rooms

ohnonotgmail · 23-01-2019 6:21pm

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Yes, certainly in the few that I've seen in Ireland.

In that case then what is the issue with transgender people using them? There is no nudity on show. I dont understand the objection or what it is that some people are afraid of.

The Bishop Basher · 23-01-2019 6:21pm

seamus wrote: »

Sure. But this happens right now anyway. "I'm a pilot", "I'm a really big Star Wars fan too!".

That's hardly the same as whipping out a big hefty langer when it's least expected.

Bannasidhe · 23-01-2019 6:22pm

Bluefoam wrote: »

Again, I did not say that. Don't associate your words with me. I am having a discussion, trying to work out complex situations and you are comparing my comments to the holocaust... grow up.

Gravelly wrote: »

Ah, Godwin, tis yourself - I was expecting you.

I could equally have said what kind of hat but most people wouldn't have gotten the reference to times people have been required to pre-identify themselves so the unsuspecting would know who/what they are.

Bluefoam seems to be calling for transgender people to make it clear they are transgender straight away - possibly before even telling anyone their name.
What better way than some visual 'clue' - a pointy hat perhaps? A gardenia corsage?- so unwary lads don't get hot and bothered by getting hot for someone who isn't what they thought they were getting hot for?

AndrewJRenko · 23-01-2019 6:26pm

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Yes, certainly in the few that I've seen in Ireland.

In that case then what is the issue with transgender people using them? There is no nudity on show. I dont understand the objection or what it is that some people are afraid of.

I'm sure others will jump to explain the huge dangers, based on one attack that happened in UK once (though not in a changing room).

It's just another bogeyman for those desperately digging for things to be afraid of

Bluefoam · 23-01-2019 6:34pm

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I could equally have said what kind of hat but most people wouldn't have gotten the reference to times people have been required to pre-identify themselves so the unsuspecting would know who/what they are.

Bluefoam seems to be calling for transgender people to make it clear they are transgender straight away - possibly before even telling anyone their name.
What better way than some visual 'clue' - a pointy hat perhaps? A gardenia corsage?- so unwary lads don't get hot and bothered by getting hot for someone who isn't what they thought they were getting hot for?

Again, you are misrepresenting what I said. I posed it as a question & I was clear in that the interactions were sexually overt in nature... so it's not about some man getting hot and bothered, it's about the potential situation that could occur where someone puts another person in a situation they are not comfortable in, nor chose to be in... You seem to think that theres no potential issue. But please don't start slinging ****e at me.

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Bluefoam seems to be calling for transgender people to make it clear they are transgender straight away - possibly before even telling anyone their name.
?

That is complete bollox. I posed a potential scenario & didn't offer a solution. Please apply the context of my comments and stop attacking.

seamus · 23-01-2019 6:35pm

Rennaws wrote: »

That's hardly the same as whipping out a big hefty langer when it's least expected.

You're right, in the other two cases you're probably going to end up shagging the person before you find out.

If someone whips out a big hefty langer, you can just say, "Ah, right. Yeah not into that. You could have told me instead of wasting both our time. Laters".

Will I Am Not · 23-01-2019 6:47pm

Bluefoam wrote: »

I don't have much to add to this debate, it's complex and I don't have the answers (yet)... but heres an experience I had recently:

On new years eve i was out with friends, a lady approached one of the lads, she had a great (feminine) body & was genuinely an atractive looking female... However, it became evident after a couple of minutes that she was in fact a male. The first give away was body movements, mannerisims, and interactions, with that in mind I noticed her voice (not masculine, but not feminine), then small things that were hard to fully put your finger on like facial expressions or how she formed words... Two of us twigged it (it took a while) & the third guy who she was chatting up was still chatting to her. She was being overtly sexual. He eventually removed himself from the conversation & had found the same conculsion all on his own. She was incredibly close to a woman, must have spend a fortune on (high quality?) physical alterations, & was so close to being a girl, but I'm not sure those final hurdles could be reached where they were completely recognisable as a woman.

To be honest, he/she/they were a bit of craic & we had no problem with them, but they were chatting up one of the lads, in a overtly sexual manner... If he wasn't able to figure it out himself & went home with them, he'd be entitled to be angry that he was suduced by a male acting as a female... Everyone in society has rights, including unsuspecting lads...

I may have put this together in a ham fisted way, & I'm not trying to be negative towards the person in question, but even finding the right language to use is difficult in this scenario.

Your mate should have sucked that woman’s dick so as not to be transphobic or something.

Bluefoam · 23-01-2019 7:04pm

seamus wrote: »

If someone whips out a big hefty langer, you can just say, "Ah, right. Yeah not into that. You could have told me instead of wasting both our time. Laters".

Thats the second time you've made comments that make suggest this situation is okay and normal... it's just not, it's sexually perverse and creepy.

Bannasidhe · 23-01-2019 7:04pm

Bluefoam wrote: »

The situation wouldn't be changing... the lack of honesty would be exposed... a sexual encounter where one party is being decieved is not a healthy situation. To counter this, all trans people would need to be upfront about their change with many people they meet. This cannot be controlled or guarunteed, so difficult situations will arise.

Bluefoam wrote: »

Again, you are misrepresenting what I said. I posed it as a question & I was clear in that the interactions were sexually overt in nature... so it's not about some man getting hot and bothered, it's about the potential situation that could occur where someone puts another person in a situation they are not comfortable in, nor chose to be in... You seem to think that theres no potential issue. But please don't start slinging ****e at me.

That is complete bollox. I posed a potential scenario & didn't offer a solution. Please apply the context of my comments and stop attacking.

I'm not attacking you.

I am wondering how this " all trans people would need to be upfront about their change with many people they meet" suggestion you made would work in real life terms.

I even suggested some possible solutions, ones that would avoid those awkward conversations of ' John, this is Jenny' 'Heelllo Jenny, how you doing? ' I'm fine John, life is great now that I am no longer Jeremiah'.
John notices Jenny is wearing a Gardenia corsage and says 'Nice to meet you Jenny'... of course John could also say 'Get away from me you F***ing abomination' because John has issues with transgender people.

You are the one who feels it is particularly an issue in potential sexual encounters so I referenced that. What about other situations? Clothes shopping - could be some awkward moments there. Or job interview? Should a transgender person put it on their C.V? Or wait til the interview?

Dick phelan · 23-01-2019 7:07pm

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

No of course not, by that logic then you could just call yourself an elephant. Its a recognised medical condition and has been since the 60's. You should look it up.

Exactly it's a medical condition, a mental illness people who believe the curtains are talking to them also have an illness except we don't pretend to them that the curtains are actually talk to them. Why are we pretending men can be women and women can be men it's nonsense.

Bluefoam · 23-01-2019 7:09pm

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I'm not attacking you.

I am wondering how this " all trans people would need to be upfront about their change with many people they meet" suggestion you made would work in real life terms.

I even suggested some possible solutions, ones that would avoid those awkward conversations of ' John, this is Jenny' 'Heelllo Jenny, how you doing? ' I'm fine John, life is great now that I am no longer Jeremiah'.
John notices Jenny is wearing a Gardenia corsage and says 'Nice to meet you Jenny'... of course John could also say 'Get away from me you F***ing abomination' because John has issues with transgender people.

You are the one who feels it is particularly an issue in potential sexual encounters so I referenced that. What about other situations? Clothes shopping - could be some awkward moments there. Or job interview? Should a transgender person put it on their C.V? Or wait til the interview?

Again, the highlighted text read out of context... but as peresented with & connected to the previpous sentence it references a particular scenario... one that is clearly spelled out in my original post:

a sexual encounter where one party is being decieved is not a healthy situation. To counter this, all trans people would need to be upfront about their change with many people they meet.

Please stop being arguementative.
To clarify. I did not say, nor did I mean that trans people should have to identify themselves upfront (I do not believe they should). I'm just questioning particular social interactions and how they may play out.

Gravelly · 23-01-2019 7:14pm

Bluefoam wrote: »

Thats the second time you've made comments that make suggest this situation is okay and normal... it's just not, it's sexually perverse and creepy.

And if it was a man that did that to a woman, that poster would be the first to start screaming about toxic masculinity!

Bannasidhe · 23-01-2019 7:21pm

Bluefoam wrote: »

Again, the highlighted text read out of context... but as peresented with & connected to the previpous sentence it references a particular scenario... one that is clearly spelled out in my original post:

Please stop being arguementative.
To clarify. I did not say, nor did I mean that trans people should have to identify themselves upfront (I do not believe they should). I'm just questioning particular social interactions and how they may play out.

You just said "I did not say, nor did I mean that trans people should have to identify themselves upfront (I do not believe they should)" but previously you said "all trans people would need to be upfront about their change with many people they meet".

Can't blame a person for being confused about what you mean when you have said two completely different, and contradictory, things.

I'm not being argumentative.

I am picking up your ball (:P) and running with it.
You said "all trans people would need to be upfront about their change with many people they meet" - and yes, you referenced a particular social situation that could end up having a sexual nature - so my little possible conversation was based on just such a situation.

But - why stop at that one social situation?
There are many potential pits falls leading to moments of utter awkwardness out there.

Bannasidhe · 23-01-2019 7:25pm

Gravelly wrote: »

And if it was a man that did that to a woman, that poster would be the first to start screaming about toxic masculinity!

Sure I would.
Because I have done that exactly zero times up til now.

Are you saying if a transsexual man was chatting up a heterosexual woman by the way? It's not clear if you are making a contribution to this thread or just having a dig.

ceadaoin. · 23-01-2019 7:32pm

seamus wrote: »

You're right, in the other two cases you're probably going to end up shagging the person before you find out.

If someone whips out a big hefty langer, you can just say, "Ah, right. Yeah not into that. You could have told me instead of wasting both our time. Laters".

I could imagine would be even more humiliating for the trans person and could potentially lead to a violent response from the partner. Is it not best to be upfront as soon as the potential for a sexual relationship becomes apparent? That doesn't mean advertising it to all and sundry but surely a potential sexual partner has the right to fully informed consent?

jam_mac_jam · 23-01-2019 7:37pm

Dick phelan wrote: »

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

No of course not, by that logic then you could just call yourself an elephant. Its a recognised medical condition and has been since the 60's. You should look it up.

Exactly it's a medical condition, a mental illness people who believe the curtains are talking to them also have an illness except we don't pretend to them that the curtains are actually talk to them. Why are we pretending men can be women and women can be men it's nonsense.

It's a medical condition. Go look it up. Nothing to do with curtains talking to them. Not really that simple. Again maybe do a little bit of research on what you are talking about

Calls for Graham Linehan to be removed from Prime Debate on transgender issues!

Comments