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Calls for Graham Linehan to be removed from Prime Debate on transgender issues!

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    #542
    canonball5
    Registered Users Posts: 445 ✭✭canonball5


    With 47% of trans people committing suicide post op, it's clearly more of a psychology issue than a biology issue.


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    #543
    Calhoun
    Registered Users Posts: 7,447 ✭✭✭Calhoun


    Gravelly wrote: »
    And didn't the guy (who's name I can't remember) who runs the clinic in Dublin say that people are sidestepping the process in order to go abroad for surgery, and the new proposed law will make this even easier.

    What's the new proposed law ?

    I guess the next act in this saga is they will claim it's unsafe for then to travel abroad so we should remove all protections so they can do it here .


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    #544
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,353 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    canonball5 wrote: »
    With 47% of trans people committing suicide post op, it's clearly more of a psychology issue than a biology issue.


    Or maybe the rate is because of external factors


    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5178031/

    Results:

    The suicide attempt rate among transgender persons ranges from 32% to 50% across the countries. Gender-based victimization, discrimination, bullying, violence, being rejected by the family, friends, and community; harassment by intimate partner, family members, police and public; discrimination and ill treatment at health-care system are the major risk factors that influence the suicidal behavior among transgender persons.


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    #545
    Gravelly
    Registered Users Posts: 4,119 ✭✭✭Gravelly


    Calhoun wrote: »
    What's the new proposed law ?

    I guess the next act in this saga is they will claim it's unsafe for then to travel abroad so we should remove all protections so they can do it here .

    Something to do with lowering the age when someone can get a cert saying they identify as whatever gender they want.


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    #546
    Calhoun
    Registered Users Posts: 7,447 ✭✭✭Calhoun


    Gravelly wrote: »
    Something to do with lowering the age when someone can get a cert saying they identify as whatever gender they want.

    I am not sure how we would tackle that one, where do 16 year olds get the money to go abroad.

    I am sure it will get through without any issues though and next they will lower it to 12 like other jurisdictions.


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    #547
    TCM
    Registered Users Posts: 736 ✭✭✭TCM


    Not going to bother reading previous posts. What I will say is that we live in a democracy and he is entitled to express his opinion even if others disagree with his views.


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    #548
    Gravelly
    Registered Users Posts: 4,119 ✭✭✭Gravelly


    Calhoun wrote: »
    I am not sure how we would tackle that one, where do 16 year olds get the money to go abroad.

    I am sure it will get through without any issues though and next they will lower it to 12 like other jurisdictions.

    I would imagine that in most cases, it's a parent that pays for it - the concern there would be that in some cases, it seems to be a parent that is pushing the whole thing (see the cases mentioned earlier of kids of 8 or younger claiming to be trans).


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    #549
    randd1
    Registered Users Posts: 1,897 ✭✭✭randd1


    canonball5 wrote: »
    With 47% of trans people committing suicide post op, it's clearly more of a psychology issue than a biology issue.

    Throw in the stat about the amount on the autism scale, and it would suggest something similar.

    I've said it before, I think a lot of this trans thing has to do with social media attention/likes/thumbs up and peer pressure to look good amongst young people, and that they're looking for an escape route from the pressures associated with them. The fact that their hormones are all over the place as well doesn't help matters, and simply adds to the confusion.

    Let them become adults, get the psychological assessment and then go down the trans route. Playing on young people's insecurities, or worse yet, raising kids as trans for your own sake, is simply not going to end well, hence the depression and suicide rates.

    I firmly believe that in 30/40 years time, much in the same we cannot understand some of the notions of 30/40 years ago, people will look back and be critical of society and how ignorant we were of real and obvious psychological problems that instead of being treated, are being celebrated as LGBT diversity and cannot be questioned.


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    #550
    sabat
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,896 ✭✭✭sabat


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    They go through this process only after a psychiatric evaluation. But you think you know better than qualified medical professionals.

    One word. Lobotomy.


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    #551
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,353 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    sabat wrote: »
    One word. Lobotomy.


    I definitely recommend you have one.


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    #552
    sabat
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,896 ✭✭✭sabat


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    I definitely recommend you have one.

    Not really a good response when I so easily invalidated your belief that psychiatrists should be blindly deferred to when they start performing experimental life-altering surgery.


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    #553
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,353 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    sabat wrote: »
    Not really a good response when I so easily invalidated your belief that psychiatrists should be blindly deferred to when they start performing experimental life-altering surgery.


    I think you've watched One Flew Over the Cuckoos Nest one too many times.


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    #554
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,836 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    TCM wrote: »
    Not going to bother reading previous posts. What I will say is that we live in a democracy and he is entitled to express his opinion even if others disagree with his views.
    He was still going to be able to express his opinion, regardless of whether he was on Prime Time or not.


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    #555
    sabat
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,896 ✭✭✭sabat


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    I think you've watched One Flew Over the Cuckoos Nest one too many times.

    Two insults instead of an actual response? That means I'm right. Thanks.


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    #556
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,353 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    sabat wrote: »
    Two insults instead of an actual response? That means I'm right. Thanks.


    No it just means you haven't said anything worth responding to.


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    #557
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Calhoun wrote: »
    Even with the psychiatrist evaluation though I am not in favor of kids going using hormone blockers or going through surgery.
    What does it matter to you? What business is it of yours?

    What makes you think you have the right or authority to make this decision for someone else?

    They make the decision, they get assessed by qualified professionals so that we as a society know we are doing our best to ensure that it's an honest and informed choice, and not something rash that will be an issue later on.

    And if they still choose to do it, then why prevent them? What is people's obsession with thinking they have the right to make personal choices for others?


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    #558
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,353 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    seamus wrote: »
    What does it matter to you? What business is it of yours?

    What makes you think you have the right or authority to make this decision for someone else?

    They make the decision, they get assessed by qualified professionals so that we as a society know we are doing our best to ensure that it's an honest and informed choice, and not something rash that will be an issue later on.

    And if they still choose to do it, then why prevent them? What is people's obsession with thinking they have the right to make personal choices for others?


    It's the IDontLikeTheLookOfThat school of thinking.


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    #559
    Gravelly
    Registered Users Posts: 4,119 ✭✭✭Gravelly


    seamus wrote: »
    And if they still choose to do it, then why prevent them? What is people's obsession with thinking they have the right to make personal choices for others?

    So we should allow people with anorexia to starve themselves? No intervention for drug addicts or problem gamblers?

    What about people with body integrity dysphoria - should we enable them to amputate limbs?


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    #560
    mazcon
    Registered Users Posts: 112 ✭✭mazcon


    Women in their twenties and thirties are routinely refused sterilisation because they're too young and might change their minds but we are to accept that children as young as twelve can make decisions about their future fertility and sexual function?


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    #561
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,836 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    NIMAN wrote: »
    It's a very serious issue and it has to be nipped in the bud now. We can't let 12 yr old children make decisions that might often ruin their lives as adults.
    And 'nip it in the bud', you mean 'force them to live through their difficult teenage years as the gender that they've known is wrong for them since they were 4 or 5?

    Is it any wonder that they have mental health issues when you're response is to pretend there is no problem?


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    #562
    SoupMonster
    Registered Users Posts: 147 ✭✭SoupMonster


    sabat wrote: »
    One word. Lobotomy.

    Bulimia
    https://www.thecut.com/article/how-bulimia-became-a-medical-diagnosis.html

    Multiple Personality Disorder
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRBZ0Kjisl4


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    #563
    Gravelly
    Registered Users Posts: 4,119 ✭✭✭Gravelly


    AndrewJRenko wrote: »
    the gender that they've known is wrong for them since they were 4 or 5?

    A 4 or 5 year old doesn't know anything about gender, and couldn't tell you if they're wearing the wrong size shoes.


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    #564
    mazcon
    Registered Users Posts: 112 ✭✭mazcon


    AndrewJRenko wrote: »
    And 'nip it in the bud', you mean 'force them to live through their difficult teenage years as the gender that they've known is wrong for them since they were 4 or 5?

    Is it any wonder that they have mental health issues when you're response is to pretend there is no problem?
    With an estimated 80% of these children resolving their dysphoria by going through puberty how on earth can you safely diagnose which ones will persist and which desist? Should the 80% be sacrificed for the 20%?


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    #565
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,836 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Gravelly wrote: »
    AndrewJRenko wrote: »
    the gender that they've known is wrong for them since they were 4 or 5?

    A 4 or 5 year old doesn't know anything about gender, and couldn't tell you if they're wearing the wrong size shoes.
    You might want to try listening to some people who've actually been through this

    https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/ireland-s-transgender-children-1.2171777


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    #566
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,836 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    mazcon wrote: »
    AndrewJRenko wrote: »
    And 'nip it in the bud', you mean 'force them to live through their difficult teenage years as the gender that they've known is wrong for them since they were 4 or 5?

    Is it any wonder that they have mental health issues when you're response is to pretend there is no problem?
    With an estimated 80% of these children resolving their dysphoria by going through puberty how on earth can you safely diagnose which ones will persist and which desist? Should the 80% be sacrificed for the 20%?
    Those numbers are fairly suspect, but on the general issue, do you think that maybe you should listen to medical and psychological experts on how to deal with people as individuals, so nobody has to get sacrificed for anybody.


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    #567
    Gravelly
    Registered Users Posts: 4,119 ✭✭✭Gravelly


    AndrewJRenko wrote: »
    You might want to try listening to some people who've actually been through this

    https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/ireland-s-transgender-children-1.2171777

    Anyone claiming they "knew they were in the wrong gender" at 4 or 5 is either lying or suffering from false memory. Four year olds simply don't think like that.


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    #568
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    mazcon wrote: »
    Women in their twenties and thirties are routinely refused sterilisation because they're too young and might change their minds but we are to accept that children as young as twelve can make decisions about their future fertility and sexual function?
    I'm not sure how pointing out one example of state over-reach is supposed to justify another?

    There is no justifiable basis for a doctor to refuse to sterilise an adult woman on request.


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    #569
    mazcon
    Registered Users Posts: 112 ✭✭mazcon


    seamus wrote: »
    I'm not sure how pointing out one example of state over-reach is supposed to justify another?

    There is no justifiable basis for a doctor to refuse to sterilise an adult woman on request.

    I would agree that in the case of adult women being refused sterilisation we see state over reach. However, in the case of prepubescent children who can have no concept of the importance fertility or sexual function might have in their lives surely the principle of "first do no harm" must come into play. Puberty resolves dysphoria in the majority of cases, it is also vital for cognitive and social maturation. Stopping it is not a benign act and if the child then goes on to cross sex hormones they miss out entirely on this vitally important development stage. From a purely practical perspective, for a MtF transitioner this will also mean there isn't enough penile tissue to create a neo vagina so the procedure is much more complicated. If there is the slightest chance the child might desist it would appear a watchful waiting approach is preferable.


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    #570
    klaaaz
    Registered Users Posts: 1,628 ✭✭✭klaaaz


    Gravelly wrote: »
    Anyone claiming they "knew they were in the wrong gender" at 4 or 5 is either lying or suffering from false memory. Four year olds simply don't think like that.

    A tiny tiny minority do, its well known that people who pursue transition knew from a very young age something was amiss with their gender. That's different from the vast majority of other kids who play dress up and want to be "something else" at that age like their cartoon heroes and then turn out to be perfectly fine with their gender later in life.


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    #571
    Uncharted
    Registered Users Posts: 4,138 ✭✭✭Uncharted


    Gravelly wrote: »
    Anyone claiming they "knew they were in the wrong gender" at 4 or 5 is either lying or suffering from false memory. Four year olds simply don't think like that.

    Agree wholeheartedly.

    Parental "imput" and outsider "suggestions" more like.

    If the parents are new age and woke,and especially "gender fluid" leaning, guess what........wow, hey presto,here results a gender fluid non binary kid.

    Shock horror!!!! :rolleyes:


    Kids are just kids. Totally malleable and influenced by all around them. And 99.9% are certainly not aware of their own sexual identity at 4 or 5.


This discussion has been closed.
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