Where are the electric cars for the masses?

unkel · 03-01-2019 7:23pm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

The "cheapest" new BEV you will be seeing is potentially the VW Neo which is supposed to have a starting price of 25k

I'm with Andy From Sligo here. For the life of me I don't understand why Renault / Nissan don't bring out a cheap end Dacia EV. Just use old bits from a Zoe and a small battery and sell it for €15k-€16k brand new. Should be doable with at least as good a profit margin as their current low end offerings (once production levels are up to speed)

Shefwedfan · 03-01-2019 7:36pm

unkel wrote: »

I'm with Andy From Sligo here. For the life of me I don't understand why Renault / Nissan don't bring out a cheap end Dacia EV. Just use old bits from a Zoe and a small battery and sell it for €15k-€16k brand new. Should be doable with at least as good a profit margin as their current low end offerings (once production levels are up to speed)

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/motors/paris-motor-show-renault-introduces-its-affordable-electric-car-1.3648699

03-01-2019 7:50pm

A 100 Km range EV still won't sell even at 15K, people want more range and faster recharge times, if the 100 Km car could charge to 80% in 10 mins that might be a different story but the charging network is a disaster.

I would not buy another 100-130 Km range EV again with no backup because the charging infrastructure is utter crap.

Mike9832 · 03-01-2019 9:02pm

unkel wrote: »

I'm with Andy From Sligo here. For the life of me I don't understand why Renault / Nissan don't bring out a cheap end Dacia EV. Just use old bits from a Zoe and a small battery and sell it for €15k-€16k brand new. Should be doable with at least as good a profit margin as their current low end offerings (once production levels are up to speed)

Don't get it either

30kWh pack is like €4000 max now, rest of the car is cheaper than ICE, electric motor, inverter, controller etc are peanuts

Government grant is what 10k?

Surely they make an EV for 25k and after grant 15k

How in the hell can they not make cheap EV's yet?

Shefwedfan · 03-01-2019 9:43pm

https://www.msn.com/en-ie/cars/news/new-electric-cars-2019-2020-what%e2%80%99s-coming-and-when/ar-BBRK8zI?li=BBr5RWG&ocid=mailsignout&fbclid=IwAR3lUqdsz8lqu15bnu6t6Gc9Cidfqe1ZE_o_rDa6zMw_LU9cx__OuzzRdZA

Some small car listed on this....no idea yet if cheap

Shefwedfan · 03-01-2019 9:47pm

Mike9832 wrote: »

Don't get it either

30kWh pack is like €4000 max now, rest of the car is cheaper than ICE, electric motor, inverter, controller etc are peanuts

Government grant is what 10k?

Surely they make an EV for 25k and after grant 15k

How in the hell can they not make cheap EV's yet?

Im not sure which alter ego is today. One minute you are saying all car companies will struggle because only Tesla are making batteries and everyone else will have no supply.

Next you have a 4k price for a battery and saying why they can't make cheap cars?

So which is it? at the moment Tesla who are supposed to be best placed to make electric cars with their own batteries but they are actually one of the most expensive to buy from.

All the other manufacturers are buying batteries and they are driving down the cost of the cars.

Are you saying now that sourcing batteries is easy and cheap?

Mike9832 · 03-01-2019 10:48pm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Im not sure which alter ego is today. One minute you are saying all car companies will struggle because only Tesla are making batteries and everyone else will have no supply.

Next you have a 4k price for a battery and saying why they can't make cheap cars?

So which is it? at the moment Tesla who are supposed to be best placed to make electric cars with their own batteries but they are actually one of the most expensive to buy from.

All the other manufacturers are buying batteries and they are driving down the cost of the cars.

Are you saying now that sourcing batteries is easy and cheap?

Its common knowledge that batteries are available at sub €130/kWh now for autogiants

Do the math smart ass

unkel · 03-01-2019 10:56pm

Deleted User wrote: »

A 100 Km range EV still won't sell even at 15K, people want more range

Most people never do even 100km in a day. And on the one or two occasions they do, if they could just fill up quickly enough, they'd be happy. A 15k EV would sell like hotcakes. But realistically we should be able to see a 200km WLTP supermini with basic enough spec for about €15k in a year or so

Shefwedfan · 03-01-2019 10:57pm

Mike9832 wrote: »

Its common knowledge that batteries are available at sub €130/kWh now for autogiants

Do the math smart ass

In that case then Tesla is just an overpriced, poorly built American car..... :-)

Mike9832 · 03-01-2019 11:13pm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

In that case then Tesla is just an overpriced, poorly built American car..... :-)

They are

Tesla have one thing going for them

Battery supply

When the rest catch up, they are screwed, won't argue with you there

They are not Apple that customers will pay for the brand

It doesn't really matter that they have cheaper battery cells either

Know one knows whats the cost to put 7000 tiny AA size batteries into a pack

04-01-2019 12:40am

unkel wrote: »

Most people never do even 100km in a day. And on the one or two occasions they do, if they could just fill up quickly enough, they'd be happy. A 15k EV would sell like hotcakes. But realistically we should be able to see a 200km WLTP supermini with basic enough spec for about €15k in a year or so

I wouldn't hold my breath.

Most people may never do 100 km a day but they think about when they do, most of us will charge at home/work but when you need to go away from home this is where the infrastructure becomes far more important.

So 3 things at the back of most people's minds are, charge times, range and public chargers.

Andy From Sligo · 04-01-2019 12:48am

talking of budget EV's has anyone ever seen anyone driving one of these 10grand Renault Twizy cars/electric vehicles ? - or have even had a go in one yourself?

04-01-2019 1:29am

The only place I saw a twizy was a few times in Germany parked up at a train station.

They're a great little car to get around town in if only they were a lot cheaper and had heat and proper sealed windows and didn't have battery rental. I would hope today that they are cheaper to buy and the battery lease should be a lot cheaper , battery charge times were also slow and they could not use the public network as they charged from normal 3 pin plug, I do not know if any updates were made to the twizy.

A fun little car but to be honest you can convert a mountain bike to electric for a fraction of the cost ( em3ev.com ) , the Twizy offers safer driving and shelter from wind and rain with the optional window protectors or whatever Renault call them.

I'd be happy to discuss electric bikes in a separate thread here in the EV motors section, I always get my threads closed and infractions for talking about electric bikes in the bicycle threads because some assholes there which might be die hard cycling purists fume at the thought of an electric bike.

Shefwedfan · 04-01-2019 2:08am

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

talking of budget EV's has anyone ever seen anyone driving one of these 10grand Renault Twizy cars/electric vehicles ? - or have even had a go in one yourself?

Electricautos had one, not sure if he stil does

A few knocking around for sale as advertisement cars...check donedeal

jackofalltrades · 04-01-2019 4:37am

unkel wrote: »

Most people never do even 100km in a day. And on the one or two occasions they do, if they could just fill up quickly enough, they'd be happy.
A 15k EV would sell like hotcakes. But realistically we should be able to see a 200km WLTP supermini with basic enough spec for about €15k in a year or so

Yeah provided it has a real world range of about 300KM.
Very few people want cars with a 100KM absolute maximum range.

liamog · 04-01-2019 4:48am

jackofalltrades wrote: »

Yeah provided it has a real world range of about 300KM.
Very few people want cars with a 100KM absolute maximum range.

The VAG triplets are due by the end of year with a range of 300km.
That's the updated e-Up, e-Citigo, and e-Mii. The target price for the e-Up is €20,000 I'd expect the Skoda version to start at around €18,000.

Shefwedfan · 04-01-2019 9:35am

liamog wrote: »

The VAG triplets are due by the end of year with a range of 300km.
That's the updated e-Up, e-Citigo, and e-Mii. The target price for the e-Up is €20,000 I'd expect the Skoda version to start at around €18,000.

300km would be the 49kWh battery, I’m not sure that will be 20k, hopefully it will, if so Vw will rule the market place

I would guess they will offer a city car with lower range at entry price and the a long range 300km version at similar price to entry Neo at 25k

unkel · 04-01-2019 10:47am

jackofalltrades wrote: »

Yeah provided it has a real world range of about 300KM.
Very few people want cars with a 100KM absolute maximum range.

Why the 300km though? Small petrol city cars a few decades ago didn't have a range of 300km. And they owners couldn't care less. Provided of course you don't have to go to a pharmacy during weekdays from 9-5.30 to buy petrol jerrycans every time you run out. We need a decent fast charging network. And cheap EVs. Cheap and cheerful works well in Ireland (and most other EU countries) given the recent success of Dacia.

ELM327 · 04-01-2019 10:55am

unkel wrote: »

Why the 300km though? Small petrol city cars a few decades ago didn't have a range of 300km. And they owners couldn't care less. Provided of course you don't have to go to a pharmacy during weekdays from 9-5.30 to buy petrol jerrycans every time you run out. We need a decent fast charging network. And cheap EVs. Cheap and cheerful works well in Ireland (and most other EU countries) given the recent success of Dacia.

I remember my first car, a kent engined ford fiesta. Wasn't so good on fuel by today's standards, was getting around 35mpg around town.

Range was approx 250 miles. I remember on trips around the country having to fill up twice :eek:

That fiesta was the most common small car on the road as I remember. So 250 mile range should be plenty!

troyzer · 04-01-2019 10:59am

ELM327 wrote: »

unkel wrote: »

Why the 300km though? Small petrol city cars a few decades ago didn't have a range of 300km. And they owners couldn't care less. Provided of course you don't have to go to a pharmacy during weekdays from 9-5.30 to buy petrol jerrycans every time you run out. We need a decent fast charging network. And cheap EVs. Cheap and cheerful works well in Ireland (and most other EU countries) given the recent success of Dacia.

I remember my first car, a kent engined ford fiesta. Wasn't so good on fuel by today's standards, was getting around 35mpg around town.

Range was approx 250 miles. I remember on trips around the country having to fill up twice :eek:

That fiesta was the most common small car on the road as I remember. So 250 mile range should be plenty!

250 miles is what, 400km?

That's top shelf EV range.

ELM327 · 04-01-2019 11:02am

It's current top shelf EV range.
The Kona/Niro offer it at below 40k.
In 2 years the likes of the kona and niro will have competition and be similarly priced to what the IOniq is now.

04-01-2019 11:43am

unkel wrote: »

Why the 300km though? Small petrol city cars a few decades ago didn't have a range of 300km. And they owners couldn't care less. ..........

...........because there was an extensively available, reliable and cost effective method of replenishing the range in less than 5 minutes

Folk interested in a city car will typically do small mileage.

10,000 miles at 30mpg at €1.50/l is €2,270

If you consider loads of folk don't even do 10,000 miles a year and that most ICE city cars do in excess of 30mpg then the appeal of EV for city cars certainly isn't on a financial basis, IMO.

unkel · 04-01-2019 11:58am

Augeo wrote: »

...........because there was an extensively available, reliable and cost effective method of replenishing the range in less than 5 minutes

And filling up your EV at home costs 80-90% less and only takes seconds, not 5 minutes and you don't have to go out of your way.

On the rare occasion someone in a budget EV wants to go beyond the range, the current fast charging network is a problem. Which should be addressed.

Augeo wrote: »

Folk interested in a city car will typically do small mileage.

10,000 miles at 30mpg at €1.50/l is €2,270

Even at half that mileage (just 8k km), the fuel saving is about a grand a year. Combine that with the cheapest possible tax, cheaper insurance, discounts on tolls, almost zero maintenance and repairs, less depreciation and your total cost of ownership of a 15k EV is far, far lower than a similar price ICE car. Plus the environmental benefits. Plus the comfort of an EV - almost all low price ICE cars are still crude manual cars with a clutch pedal - a setup from the 19th century :pac:

Embrace the future, Augeo. Just go test drive an EV. Any EV. And see what you think

04-01-2019 12:08pm

unkel wrote: »

...........

Embrace the future, Augeo. Just go test drive an EV. Any EV. And see what you think

I do at least 20k miles a year, 4/6 300 mile round trips/month and I need extensive load space.

When EVs can accommodate me I'll embrace them if it suits me. Currently they don't

My 200bhp, manual, AWD, Sorento does me perfectly. You can keep your embrace the future speel. No EV will suit me currently.

unkel wrote: »

...............

Even at half that mileage (just 8k km), the fuel saving is about a grand a year. Combine that with the cheapest possible tax, cheaper insurance, discounts on tolls, almost zero maintenance and repairs, less depreciation and your total cost of ownership of a 15k EV is far, far lower than a similar price ICE car. Plus the environmental benefits. Plus the comfort of an EV - almost all low price ICE cars are still crude manual cars with a clutch pedal - a setup from the 19th century :pac:.................

But when you consider that even low mileage users will quite likely have some longer trips per annum and it makes little appeal to switch to EV if you will have to consider renting an ICE even for two weekends/year. Or for your stay at home vacation.

You say the fast charging network problem should be addressed, well currently there are no plans to

Also what EVs are about for €15k currently?

unkel · 04-01-2019 12:14pm

Augeo wrote: »

I do at least 20k miles a year, 4/6 300 mile round trips/month and I need extensive load space.

No reasonably priced EVs can do that yet. Still go test drive an EV. Costs nothing and might open your eyes

Augeo wrote: »

But when you consider that even low mileage users will quite likely have some longer trips per annum and it makes little appeal to switch to EV if you will have to consider renting an ICE even for two weekends/year. Or for your stay at home vacation.

You say the fast charging network problem should be addressed, well currently there are no plans to

Also what EVs are about for €15k currently?

Ah here, we have discussed all these points already on this thread. Summary: you can already fast charge all EVs currently for sale. No need to have a second ICE car or rent an ICE car for the occasional longer trip. We do have a network of fast chargers in Ireland (about 100 vs about 1000 petrol stations). It needs improvement which it will get in the form of new money for ESB specifically for fast chargers (they have already upgraded several) and Ionity - plenty of improvements will be implemented this year. And lastly, no there are no 15k EVs yet but there should be soon enough (we are talking next year)

04-01-2019 12:16pm

unkel wrote: »

No reasonably priced EVs can do that yet. Still go test drive an EV. Costs nothing and might open your eyes ...........

[SNIP]

Mod Note: Show some civility to other posters please.

unkel · 04-01-2019 12:21pm

LOL yeah whatever

04-01-2019 12:23pm

unkel wrote: »

.........

Ah here,..........

unkel wrote: »

LOL yeah whatever

Ah don't be glum

KCross · 04-01-2019 12:52pm

Augeo wrote: »

I do at least 20k miles a year, 4/6 300 mile round trips/month and I need extensive load space.

When EVs can accommodate me I'll embrace them if it suits me. Currently they don't
My 200bhp, manual, AWD, Sorento does me perfectly. You can keep your embrace the future speel. No EV will suit me currently.

The 20k miles is no issue. Many EV owners doing alot more than that. The issue is the long trips you have. You need a 60kWh+ EV for that.

The Kona is the only one available outside super expensive Tesla cars.

A Sorento is a good bit bigger so I assume the Kona would not suit you(?) which means you have no choice but ICE and thats fair enough... EV's are not for everyone yet by a long shot.

Augeo wrote: »

But when you consider that even low mileage users will quite likely have some longer trips per annum and it makes little appeal to switch to EV if you will have to consider renting an ICE even for two weekends/year. Or for your stay at home vacation.

Renting for a few weekends a year wouldnt be for me and wont for the majority. You need the car you've paid good money for to do all your journeys. The infrastructure is the primary issue there. I wouldnt recommend an EV to a one car family unless they fully understood that long journeys could be a miserable tale (until the network is improved).

For two car families, EV is a no brainer.

If you are a 2 car family I would suggest you dig a little deeper. If the Sorento is all you have then fair enough... ICE for the foreseeable future.

Augeo wrote: »

You say the fast charging network problem should be addressed, well currently there are no plans to

You're ill informed on that one

There are multiple plans...
- eCars have allocated €10m only a few weeks ago with shovels expected in the ground this year
- Ionity have planning permission in for 3 sites with 6 more to be submitted... shovels should be in the ground as well this year.

And those examples are for 150kW chargers with 4-6 chargers per site. It will remove all anxiety about chargers and queuing etc.

ELM327 · 04-01-2019 12:54pm

KCross wrote: »

The 20k miles is no issue. Many EV owners doing alot more than that. The issue is the long trips you have. You need a 60kWh+ EV for that.

The Kona is the only one available outside super expensive Tesla cars.

A Sorento is a good bit bigger so I assume the Kona would not suit you(?) which means you have no choice but ICE and thats fair enough... EV's are not for everyone yet by a long shot.

Renting for a few weekends a year wouldnt be for me and wont for the majority. You need the car you've paid good money for to do all your journeys. The infrastructure is the primary issue there. I wouldnt recommend an EV to a one car family unless they fully understood that long journeys could be a miserable tale (until the network is improved).

For two car families, EV is a no brainer.

If you are a 2 car family I would suggest you dig a little deeper. If the Sorento is all you have then fair enough... ICE for the foreseeable future.

You're ill informed on that one

There are multiple plans...
- eCars have allocated €10m only a few weeks ago with shovels expected in the ground this year
- Ionity have planning permission in for 3 sites with 6 more to be submitted... shovels should be in the ground as well this year.

And those examples are for 150kW chargers with 4-6 chargers per site. It will remove all anxiety about chargers and queuing etc.

+1 to this well written, informative and factually correct post.
Frankly I think the post "cuck" remarks above from Augeo were a little/lot past the line of "don't be a dick"

Mike9832 · 04-01-2019 1:00pm

ELM327 wrote: »

It's current top shelf EV range.
The Kona/Niro offer it at below 40k.
In 2 years the likes of the kona and niro will have competition and be similarly priced to what the IOniq is now.

If they are 30k or below

Its end game for ICE

I cant see it though

2 years is not long enough

Wont be enough competition out in volume

When we see a Toyota EV we'll know its end game

04-01-2019 1:35pm

Toyota invested billions in Hydrogen R&D and nothing to show for it, they're still selling hybrids with NiMh batteries with the odd tiny lithium plugin. They took a foolish path , I mean how could such a company think Hydrogen would ever become the main source of energy for transport, ?it's produced using fossil fuels and has to be cooled to -250 degrees to transport it, the inefficiency of hydrogen production is absolutely mind boggling and to the best on my knowledge no one has ever produced a container that does not leak hydrogen.

Imagine the energy alone required to cool all this hydrogen to -250 degrees ? it was insane.

All manufacturers should have been making hybrids 15 years ago.

"self charging hybrids" lol

ELM327 · 04-01-2019 1:43pm

The only future for Hydrogen IMO is as a range extended PHEV (IE battery electric with a hydrogen fuel cell) for long distance semis etc
And generated on site by renewables. But that's a push.

04-01-2019 1:57pm

Yes, the "only" place I see hydrogen in in HGV usage, maybe Buses, perhaps planes ? but it's probably far too dangerous for planes. Maybe ships, but big city size cargo ships running on hydrogen with potential for explosion ? I'm not so sure.

Trains ?

Fuel cells are not as efficient as batteries and batteries have much higher power density, that's the ability to receive and deliver large mounts of current. And the last time I checked are far more vulnerable to cold.

If Lithium air is good enough though that could be good enough for trucks if they can charge fast enough, say 1 Mw ? that's a crap load of energy though at just one charge plug. I'd imagine it and the plug would be massive.

04-01-2019 2:07pm

KCross wrote: »

.......................

A Sorento is a good bit bigger so I assume the Kona would not suit you(?) which means you have no choice but ICE and thats fair enough... EV's are not for everyone yet by a long shot.................

I know that, I was being told to test drive an EV to open my eyes.

ELM327 wrote: »

+1 to this well written, informative and factually correct post.
Frankly I think the post "cuck" remarks above from Augeo were a little/lot past the line of "don't be a dick"

Winky faces etc and being told a test drive might open my eyes when no EV suits my needs is also a little/lot past the line of "don't be a dick" IMO

cros13 · 04-01-2019 2:08pm

Augeo wrote: »

I do at least 20k miles a year, 4/6 300 mile round trips/month and I need extensive load space.

I do twice your annual mileage in a 22kWh i3. I'd advise a 60kWh+, but it actually possible to do that mileage in smaller battery EVs.
The i3 is also a pretty good hauler with the rear seats folded, I've hauled multiple large appliances at once, king size bed frames etc.

The incentive for higher mileage drivers to switch to EV is greater due to the running cost differences. In 4 years my i3 has saved €20-25k in fuel and maintenance over an equivalent combustion vehicle.

04-01-2019 2:11pm

cros13 wrote: »

I do twice your annual mileage in a 22kWh i3.

Good for you .......... do you need extensive load space?

rivegauche · 04-01-2019 2:11pm

Renault Twingo, Smart ForFour and VW UP family are all engineered for electric drivetrains. Cars of this size will not receive or sell with electric drivetrains until they are more affordable or closer to the point in time when CO2 offsets are required.

I find smaller electric cars attractive because they give the quietness and refinement of larger cars in a smaller footprint. I won't put up with a noisy little buzzbox. I want the smaller footprint but not willing to make the compromise necessary which at this stage forces me to drive a Compact Class car rather than a citycar or supermini.

cros13 · 04-01-2019 2:31pm

Augeo wrote: »

Good for you .......... do you need extensive load space?

Yup, I use the i3 for a lot of stuff I used to use one of the vans for. The load floor starts a bit high but it's flat the whole way, load area is tall and boxy and the lack of B-Pillars even makes it easy to load through the side doors. I actually find it more practical for hauling than the Leafs (which are bigger vehicles).

liamog · 04-01-2019 5:27pm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

300km would be the 49kWh battery, I’m not sure that will be 20k, hopefully it will, if so Vw will rule the market place

I would guess they will offer a city car with lower range at entry price and the a long range 300km version at similar price to entry Neo at 25k

Just basing that on whats been reported so far, using the WLTP figures from the current Up, it would only need a 42kWh battery to hit a rated 300km. If VW can source 60Ah PHEV2 cells at a good price they could hit that target.

Shefwedfan · 04-01-2019 6:12pm

For the discussion about a city car. In reality I use my eGolf as a city car. Range today as I had aircon/heated seats/normal mode was just over 100km....all travel done outside rush hour and I was in a rush...so no saving range

That's with a 26kWh battery. In reality for 90% of Dublin a 26kWh battery would be more than enough. That would be enough to drop off kids, go to work, pick up kids, go home....still have range to do shops/gym etc....then top up at night.....

Everyone asking for 200/300km range have no actual data to back up that requirement.

A small car with a 20-30kWh battery starting new at 15-20k would fly out the doors because it would meet everyone requirements. Of course people will complain about range so they will go to a larger battery and higher price and then people will complain about price....

It's a no win situation.

Even, take every dual car house in Dublin. I bet you could swap 1 car in each household for an electric and they would never need to use a public charger because they would have the combustion engine to do long range. Exactly as I do.

In regards to extensive load space.....buy a van

liamog · 04-01-2019 6:47pm

I get about 90km in my e-Up with aircon, heated seats, and spirited driving from its 18.7kWh battery

A big driver towards the 300km city car is enabling away from home charging, if we can get to a Corsa/Up/Micra sized car that needs to be charged once a week, you can really transition alot of the non drivewayed masses to EV using shared infrastructure in the style of Dundee.

jackofalltrades · 04-01-2019 10:19pm

unkel wrote: »

Why the 300km though? Small petrol city cars a few decades ago didn't have a range of 300km. And they owners couldn't care less.

They didn't have a choice back then of cars with longer ranges, they do now.
And why 300km, it's not a scientific number, but I'd say it's at about the range where the masses would start taking electric cars seriously.

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Everyone asking for 200/300km range have no actual data to back up that requirement.

I'm not being flippant when I say this but consumers don't need to back up their requirements with data.

A small car with a 20-30kWh battery starting new at 15-20k would fly out the doors because it would meet everyone requirements.

Meeting everyone's requirements is absolutely no guarantee of sales success.
Is there any marketing data to back up your claim?

Ning · 04-01-2019 10:33pm

Low mileage 3-year old second hand Zoes under 10k with all options. Perfect for daily use in greater Dublin area. That's EV for the masses.

Andy From Sligo · 04-01-2019 11:03pm

Ning wrote: »

Low mileage 3-year old second hand Zoes under 10k with all options. Perfect for daily use in greater Dublin area. That's EV for the masses.

its not new though

troyzer · 04-01-2019 11:21pm

Ning wrote: »

Low mileage 3-year old second hand Zoes under 10k with all options. Perfect for daily use in greater Dublin area. That's EV for the masses.

How is it EV for the masses? It's a second hand product.

There are 38 Zoe's second hand on Done Deal.

Most of them are still over €20k (more expensive than a brand new small hybrid like the Yaris).

This is not EV for the masses.

Ning · 04-01-2019 11:25pm

troyzer wrote: »

How is it EV for the masses? It's a second hand product.

There are 38 Zoe's second hand on Done Deal.

Most of them are still over €20k (more expensive than a brand new small hybrid like the Yaris).

This is not EV for the masses.

2 battery-lease ones at around 9k at the moment on http://www.electricautos.ie/

troyzer · 04-01-2019 11:28pm

Ning wrote: »

troyzer wrote: »

How is it EV for the masses? It's a second hand product.

There are 38 Zoe's second hand on Done Deal.

Most of them are still over €20k (more expensive than a brand new small hybrid like the Yaris).

This is not EV for the masses.

2 battery-lease ones at around 9k at the moment on http://www.electricautos.ie/

Oh right. So two cars = cars for the masses.

Maybe you don't know what the term masses means?

EV is too niché at the moment and the whole premise of this thread was to talk about the obviously huge potential market of sub €20k, cheap, short distance EV cars which would be ideal either for city dwellers or people who are eco friendly and perhaps have two household cars. One could be electric and the other a diesel or hybrid.

This is the game changer.

Pointing to a rare, second hand car which is fabulously overpriced compared to a similar ICE car is not a solution.

cena · 04-01-2019 11:30pm

any of them get you from galway to Belfast and the same day

Ning · 04-01-2019 11:32pm

troyzer wrote: »

Oh right. So two cars = cars for the masses.

Maybe you don't know what the term masses means.

"For the masses" -> this is a pricing statement, not an availability statement. If there is demand, the offer (availability) will follow. You're obviously mixing both concepts.

Where are the electric cars for the masses?

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