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Where are the electric cars for the masses?

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  • Registered Users Posts: 10,674 ✭✭✭✭ Andy From Sligo


    Shefwedfan wrote: »
    You bought second hand so other people can buy second hand

    I bought a Leaf 2011 for under 7k with 30k Km on it. One with 100k km sold for 2-3k a while back....

    Loads of cheap Zoe if you pay battery rental....

    Brand new they are not available at cheap prices

    fair enough but EV's have come on a hell of a lot since 2011 range wise/technology/charging regenerative braking etc - plus you still havent got a total idea how the car had been handled by previous owners (yes same goes for petrol and diesel as well I know - but I would be even more wary if it were a used electric car I were buying personally)


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,392 ✭✭✭ peposhi


    fair enough but EV's have come on a hell of a lot since 2011 range wise/technology/charging regenerative braking etc - plus you still havent got a total idea how the car had been handled by previous owners (yes same goes for petrol and diesel as well I know - but I would be even more wary if it were a used electric car I were buying personally)

    Why would you be worried? Do you have injectors, transmission, exhaust, head gasket, spark plugs, oil change, filters, strarters, alternators and etc and etc to worry about?!? In an ICE you have more than 2000 moving parts that need attention. In an EV - just about 20.
    Cars do break down, but the likelihood of you getting in troubles with an EV vs ICE is quite lower. I have a colleague who complained yesterday that his 65k miles ‘11 Ford Focus needs 4! injectors... €920 was the cheapest quote so far...


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,392 ✭✭✭ peposhi


    I still personally think (and maybe most wont agree with me) a manufacturer (or couple of manufacturers need to bring out some 'Budget/entry level' EV cars for the market at around selling price of near the 12grand mark. (not looking like the twizzy which is horrid)

    if that mean cutting down to the very basics so be it. So even if its distance is 140km-150km on a charge , no reversing sensors, just a bog standard radio/mp3 head unit fitted into the dash, no heated seats, no sat nav, no air conditioning (just a bog standard heater/demister for the windows) no other mod cons that the dearer EV's seem to be equipped with, then it might just keep that price comparable to the cheaper end of the petrol car market and more people will change over.

    You already have the described one (probably a bit short of 140im range) - 141-162 24kw Leafs, Zoes.
    Yes - second hand - but perfectly suitable and relatable as f..k :)
    My wife’s L24 is doing all her daily routine drive and the car never stops - school, shopping, work, meetings. Have not changed a blip in her lifestyle since she went for an EV and has not visited a petrol station for a year now...

    The only way mass people would get to understand EV is when they make the first step and actually by one that suits their and daily routine drive... and this can be done at low or high cost - depends on your financial situation


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,961 ✭✭✭✭ Shefwedfan


    fair enough but EV's have come on a hell of a lot since 2011 range wise/technology/charging regenerative braking etc - plus you still havent got a total idea how the car had been handled by previous owners (yes same goes for petrol and diesel as well I know - but I would be even more wary if it were a used electric car I were buying personally)


    Why? you can get more information from an electric car then you an ever get from a combustion engine car. You have no idea on combustion if they have used s**t diesel, tractor diesel or anything.



    Not like you can buy bad electricity. Also you can tell the exact health of the battery.



    Buying electric second hand is easier to combustion


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,961 ✭✭✭✭ Shefwedfan


    troyzer wrote: »
    I think you're all missing the original point that for the person who can only spend €10-€15k on a car, there is no EV option.

    The OP wasn't trying to suggest that the Kona and a 3 cylinder **** box were equivalent but that the same person who buys a 3 cylinder **** box isn't being catered to by the manufacturers.

    I can't afford a new car. I bought a 4 year old Fiesta in November for €7k and that's my absolute limit at the moment. I'm a recent graduate and my spending power will increase in time but the bottom line is that I'm the best part of €20k away from even a basic electric car.

    You can get brand new Toyota Hybrids for less than €20k. This is my next step up but I'd rather an electric.


    Sorry but I am confused now. Are you saying their isnt a new electric car for 10-15k? then you are correct there isn't and it will be a few years before one is launched. Irish people seem to get hung up on a number plate. Why not spend 15k on a car that is 2 years old? then with the savings you make from fuel/service you can save up for your next car which will hopefully be new....

    If you are saying their is no 10-15k electric cars then you are wrong. There is plenty knocking around second hand and to be honest a 15k budget is a good starting point


    Even in your situation you could buy either a Zoe or a Leaf.

    Sitting on the fence and complaining about no electric cars will not help. People buying electric cars and getting them into the system will help. Lets take 2021, the amount of Leaf 2 which will slow into the second user market will help massively when people are looking to buy electric second hand. It will take time.....


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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,165 ✭✭✭ troyzer


    Shefwedfan wrote: »
    troyzer wrote: »
    I think you're all missing the original point that for the person who can only spend €10-€15k on a car, there is no EV option.

    The OP wasn't trying to suggest that the Kona and a 3 cylinder **** box were equivalent but that the same person who buys a 3 cylinder **** box isn't being catered to by the manufacturers.

    I can't afford a new car. I bought a 4 year old Fiesta in November for €7k and that's my absolute limit at the moment. I'm a recent graduate and my spending power will increase in time but the bottom line is that I'm the best part of €20k away from even a basic electric car.

    You can get brand new Toyota Hybrids for less than €20k. This is my next step up but I'd rather an electric.


    Sorry but I am confused now. Are you saying their isnt a new electric car for 10-15k? then you are correct there isn't and it will be a few years before one is launched. Irish people seem to get hung up on a number plate. Why not spend 15k on a car that is 2 years old? then with the savings you make from fuel/service you can save up for your next car which will hopefully be new....

    If you are saying their is no 10-15k electric cars then you are wrong. There is plenty knocking around second hand and to be honest a 15k budget is a good starting point


    Even in your situation you could buy either a Zoe or a Leaf.

    Sitting on the fence and complaining about no electric cars will not help. People buying electric cars and getting them into the system will help. Lets take 2021, the amount of Leaf 2 which will slow into the second user market will help massively when people are looking to buy electric second hand. It will take time.....

    I don't even buy second hand phones and laptops because of worries over battery degredation.

    I'm not going to spend €10-€15k on a used electric car which could be knackered.

    Is that an unfounded fear? Probably. But batteries do decay and are uneconomic to replace.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,961 ✭✭✭✭ Shefwedfan


    troyzer wrote: »
    I don't even buy second hand phones and laptops because of worries over battery degredation.

    I'm not going to spend €10-€15k on a used electric car which could be knackered.

    Is that an unfounded fear? Probably. But batteries do decay and are uneconomic to replace.


    Degradation on batteries will happen but take a Leaf for instance you can run a report off your phone and tells you exactly what the decay is. Fast charge is hard on battery so report tells you exactly how many fast charges the battery has had.....


    Or if you take VW, they "pad" the battery according to report. So someone ran a report when they got a new eGolf and it said 96% or something. Done 80k km's on it and ran report again and still at 96%.....the decay was covered by the battery "padding"....I am no expert and that was put on eGolf group....

    You will find people who have done huge km's in electric car without much loss.



    One person has already swapped a battery on a Leaf, I am not sure if they swapped to 30kWh or just done a direct swap to 24kWh. This was guy in Ireland and put onfacebook



    More and more companies are popping up who do battery repairs but also convert cars to electric.



    All in a combustion engine car could cost multiple k over a 5 year because of timing belts etc.....you could happily drive for 100k kms in electric ar and just have to swap the odd brake pad. At the end of its life, pull out battery and stick it onto your Solar PV, or just get someone to change the units which are gone....


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,030 ✭✭✭✭ loyatemu


    eCar is perfect for a 2nd car as a runaround for short trips. Or for all the little old ladies puttering around in Nissan Micras (they were in clapped out old Morris Minors when I was a kid). Doesn't need to have a 300km range for that - I'm sure the Kona is great but the question posed in the OP is relevant. A 15k small eCar with a 150km range would sell like hotcakes and really drive uptake and infrastructure. Where is it? Is any manufacture even planning something like that?


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,774 ✭✭✭✭ KCross


    Shefwedfan wrote: »
    VW, I don’t know any other dealers plans, expect to have a Skoda electric at circa 18k...
    Dyson are going to launch theirs, probably cheap

    Zero chance of that, imo.
    I'd bet their EV will be in Jag iPace price territory.

    troyzer wrote: »
    I don't even buy second hand phones and laptops because of worries over battery degredation.

    I'm not going to spend €10-€15k on a used electric car which could be knackered.

    Is that an unfounded fear? Probably. But batteries do decay and are uneconomic to replace.

    A phone or laptop has 4-6 cells in its battery. Lets take an entry level one that has 4... If one of those cells die you have lost 25% of your battery!

    Now look at EV batteries, they have hundreds of cells so one or two dying will have a much smaller effect.

    And crucially EV batteries are designed for EV's. They might all be called Li-ion batteries but inside they are not all the same. EV batteries have different chemistry and different battery management systems to maintain capacity and longevity.

    EV batteries are generally good for the lifetime of the car. There are true stories where batteries have had to be replaced but its primarily in hot climates where Nissan got the design wrong and had to warranty replace them. I've never heard of someone having to do it in our climate in UK or Ireland.

    As long as the car you are buying has not sat on the forecourt with a fully charged or full dead battery for weeks on end it will be fine. Get it checked before you buy.


    TD;DR... your fears are unfounded.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,774 ✭✭✭✭ KCross


    loyatemu wrote: »
    I'm sure the Kona is great but the question posed in the OP is relevant. A 15k small eCar with a 150km range would sell like hotcakes and really drive uptake and infrastructure. Where is it? Is any manufacture even planning something like that?

    It doesnt exist and wont for a few years.
    Its "new" tech. New tech always starts at the high price end of the market and works its way down. Started with €80k Tesla's and €40k eGolfs etc. We are at the ~€25k price mark now which isnt bad. Lots of people spend more than that on their new cars.

    However, a small petrol hybrid is a better buy for low mileage owners right now.

    I think someone doing 5k km's per year isnt really suitable for the current EV's both on price and on the battery tech. Li-ion doesnt like sitting at high state of charge for extended periods. I think we'd need a battery breakthrough to find a battery tech suitable for those low mileage users.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,967 ✭✭✭ Sabre Man


    troyzer wrote: »
    I don't even buy second hand phones and laptops because of worries over battery degredation.

    I'm not going to spend €10-€15k on a used electric car which could be knackered.

    Is that an unfounded fear? Probably. But batteries do decay and are uneconomic to replace.

    If you're really worried about battery degradation you can always go for a Renault Zoe with a battery lease, which also makes the car cheaper to buy.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,961 ✭✭✭✭ Shefwedfan


    Sabre Man wrote: »
    If you're really worried about battery degradation you can always go for a Renault Zoe with a battery lease, which also makes the car cheaper to buy.


    Your talking sense now.... :P we can't accept that....

    5k UKP for a good low mileage Zoe with high spec....only have to drive over the border....most of the companies you dont even have to as they will deliver to your door now


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,392 ✭✭✭ peposhi


    troyzer wrote: »
    I don't even buy second hand phones and laptops because of worries over battery degredation.

    I'm not going to spend €10-€15k on a used electric car which could be knackered.

    Is that an unfounded fear? Probably. But batteries do decay and are uneconomic to replace.

    ?!?
    You are not being serious.

    Do you think your ICE stays “forever young”?!? The minute the car is produced all the bloody 2000+ moving parts start to age over time and usage. To maintain any ICE car over its life time is way more expensive than an EV. The amount of issues you have to deal, the time and money you need to spend on fixing them...

    Also the previous poster said it - you can actually get a whole, clear picture of the battery state of health and use/misuse for the life time of the vehicle before you buy.
    Good luck doing that with an ICE... cant check the engine, can’t check the oil, can’t check the filters, can’t check the timing belt, can’t check the exhaust system, can’t check the fuel system, can’t check the transmission until it’s either serviced or it breaks down...


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 57,791 CMod ✭✭✭✭ unkel


    I thought it was well known that a Dyson EV will be high end. Sure Dyson is the Apple of home applicances. Make them look nice and simple to use, charge double what you should charge and the sheeples go for it in droves :p

    I'd say it will do well...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,961 ✭✭✭✭ Shefwedfan


    unkel wrote: »
    I thought it was well known that a Dyson EV will be high end. Sure Dyson is the Apple of home applicances. Make them look nice and simple to use, charge double what you should charge and the sheeples go for it in droves :p

    I'd say it will do well...


    I took it that they wanted to go mainstream with low cost. How many people are going to buy an expensive car with a Dyson badge on it :P


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,146 ✭✭✭✭ ELM327


    Shefwedfan wrote: »
    I took it that they wanted to go mainstream with low cost. How many people are going to buy an expensive car with a Dyson badge on it :P
    Same amount as those who spend over the odds for a dyson badged vacuum?


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,797 samih


    Well if they build great cars that don't suck...


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,392 ✭✭✭ peposhi


    samih wrote: »
    Well if they build great cars that don't suck...

    I bet you each Dyson car will come with a suck option. Price will depend on being bagless or not.
    ...You use it for whatever way you need it for...


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,674 ✭✭✭✭ Andy From Sligo


    troyzer wrote: »
    I don't even buy second hand phones and laptops because of worries over battery degredation.

    I'm not going to spend €10-€15k on a used electric car which could be knackered.

    Is that an unfounded fear? Probably. But batteries do decay and are uneconomic to replace.

    i would feel the same to be honest


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,961 ✭✭✭✭ Shefwedfan


    i would feel the same to be honest


    The "cheapest" new BEV you will be seeing is potentially the VW Neo which is supposed to have a starting price of 25k next year + delivery. Pricing yet to be confirmed



    I would expect a lower cost version to come out via Skoda but will probably be 2021 or so. They will not want to release a cheaper BEV to take the shine off Neo


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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 57,791 CMod ✭✭✭✭ unkel


    Shefwedfan wrote: »
    The "cheapest" new BEV you will be seeing is potentially the VW Neo which is supposed to have a starting price of 25k

    I'm with Andy From Sligo here. For the life of me I don't understand why Renault / Nissan don't bring out a cheap end Dacia EV. Just use old bits from a Zoe and a small battery and sell it for €15k-€16k brand new. Should be doable with at least as good a profit margin as their current low end offerings (once production levels are up to speed)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,961 ✭✭✭✭ Shefwedfan


    unkel wrote: »
    I'm with Andy From Sligo here. For the life of me I don't understand why Renault / Nissan don't bring out a cheap end Dacia EV. Just use old bits from a Zoe and a small battery and sell it for €15k-€16k brand new. Should be doable with at least as good a profit margin as their current low end offerings (once production levels are up to speed)




    https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/motors/paris-motor-show-renault-introduces-its-affordable-electric-car-1.3648699


  • Registered Users Posts: 21,060 ✭✭✭✭ Mad_Lad


    A 100 Km range EV still won't sell even at 15K, people want more range and faster recharge times, if the 100 Km car could charge to 80% in 10 mins that might be a different story but the charging network is a disaster.

    I would not buy another 100-130 Km range EV again with no backup because the charging infrastructure is utter crap.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,912 ✭✭✭ Mike9832


    unkel wrote: »
    I'm with Andy From Sligo here. For the life of me I don't understand why Renault / Nissan don't bring out a cheap end Dacia EV. Just use old bits from a Zoe and a small battery and sell it for €15k-€16k brand new. Should be doable with at least as good a profit margin as their current low end offerings (once production levels are up to speed)

    Don't get it either

    30kWh pack is like €4000 max now, rest of the car is cheaper than ICE, electric motor, inverter, controller etc are peanuts

    Government grant is what 10k?

    Surely they make an EV for 25k and after grant 15k

    How in the hell can they not make cheap EV's yet?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,961 ✭✭✭✭ Shefwedfan


    Mike9832 wrote: »
    Don't get it either

    30kWh pack is like €4000 max now, rest of the car is cheaper than ICE, electric motor, inverter, controller etc are peanuts

    Government grant is what 10k?

    Surely they make an EV for 25k and after grant 15k

    How in the hell can they not make cheap EV's yet?


    Im not sure which alter ego is today. One minute you are saying all car companies will struggle because only Tesla are making batteries and everyone else will have no supply.

    Next you have a 4k price for a battery and saying why they can't make cheap cars?

    So which is it? at the moment Tesla who are supposed to be best placed to make electric cars with their own batteries but they are actually one of the most expensive to buy from.

    All the other manufacturers are buying batteries and they are driving down the cost of the cars.

    Are you saying now that sourcing batteries is easy and cheap?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,912 ✭✭✭ Mike9832


    Shefwedfan wrote: »
    Im not sure which alter ego is today. One minute you are saying all car companies will struggle because only Tesla are making batteries and everyone else will have no supply.

    Next you have a 4k price for a battery and saying why they can't make cheap cars?

    So which is it? at the moment Tesla who are supposed to be best placed to make electric cars with their own batteries but they are actually one of the most expensive to buy from.

    All the other manufacturers are buying batteries and they are driving down the cost of the cars.

    Are you saying now that sourcing batteries is easy and cheap?

    Its common knowledge that batteries are available at sub €130/kWh now for autogiants

    Do the math smart ass


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 57,791 CMod ✭✭✭✭ unkel


    Mad_Lad wrote: »
    A 100 Km range EV still won't sell even at 15K, people want more range

    Most people never do even 100km in a day. And on the one or two occasions they do, if they could just fill up quickly enough, they'd be happy. A 15k EV would sell like hotcakes. But realistically we should be able to see a 200km WLTP supermini with basic enough spec for about €15k in a year or so


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,961 ✭✭✭✭ Shefwedfan


    Mike9832 wrote: »
    Its common knowledge that batteries are available at sub €130/kWh now for autogiants

    Do the math smart ass


    In that case then Tesla is just an overpriced, poorly built American car..... :-)


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,912 ✭✭✭ Mike9832


    Shefwedfan wrote: »
    In that case then Tesla is just an overpriced, poorly built American car..... :-)

    They are

    Tesla have one thing going for them

    Battery supply

    When the rest catch up, they are screwed, won't argue with you there

    They are not Apple that customers will pay for the brand

    It doesn't really matter that they have cheaper battery cells either

    Know one knows whats the cost to put 7000 tiny AA size batteries into a pack


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