Where are the electric cars for the masses?

Shefwedfan

For the discussion about a city car. In reality I use my eGolf as a city car. Range today as I had aircon/heated seats/normal mode was just over 100km....all travel done outside rush hour and I was in a rush...so no saving range

That's with a 26kWh battery. In reality for 90% of Dublin a 26kWh battery would be more than enough. That would be enough to drop off kids, go to work, pick up kids, go home....still have range to do shops/gym etc....then top up at night.....

Everyone asking for 200/300km range have no actual data to back up that requirement.

A small car with a 20-30kWh battery starting new at 15-20k would fly out the doors because it would meet everyone requirements. Of course people will complain about range so they will go to a larger battery and higher price and then people will complain about price....

It's a no win situation.

Even, take every dual car house in Dublin. I bet you could swap 1 car in each household for an electric and they would never need to use a public charger because they would have the combustion engine to do long range. Exactly as I do.

In regards to extensive load space.....buy a van

liamog

I get about 90km in my e-Up with aircon, heated seats, and spirited driving from its 18.7kWh battery

A big driver towards the 300km city car is enabling away from home charging, if we can get to a Corsa/Up/Micra sized car that needs to be charged once a week, you can really transition alot of the non drivewayed masses to EV using shared infrastructure in the style of Dundee.

jackofalltrades

unkel wrote: »

Why the 300km though? Small petrol city cars a few decades ago didn't have a range of 300km. And they owners couldn't care less.

They didn't have a choice back then of cars with longer ranges, they do now.
And why 300km, it's not a scientific number, but I'd say it's at about the range where the masses would start taking electric cars seriously.

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Everyone asking for 200/300km range have no actual data to back up that requirement.

I'm not being flippant when I say this but consumers don't need to back up their requirements with data.

A small car with a 20-30kWh battery starting new at 15-20k would fly out the doors because it would meet everyone requirements.

Meeting everyone's requirements is absolutely no guarantee of sales success.
Is there any marketing data to back up your claim?

Ning

Low mileage 3-year old second hand Zoes under 10k with all options. Perfect for daily use in greater Dublin area. That's EV for the masses.

Andy From Sligo

Ning wrote: »

Low mileage 3-year old second hand Zoes under 10k with all options. Perfect for daily use in greater Dublin area. That's EV for the masses.

its not new though

troyzer

Ning wrote: »

Low mileage 3-year old second hand Zoes under 10k with all options. Perfect for daily use in greater Dublin area. That's EV for the masses.

How is it EV for the masses? It's a second hand product.

There are 38 Zoe's second hand on Done Deal.

Most of them are still over €20k (more expensive than a brand new small hybrid like the Yaris).

This is not EV for the masses.

Ning

troyzer wrote: »

How is it EV for the masses? It's a second hand product.

There are 38 Zoe's second hand on Done Deal.

Most of them are still over €20k (more expensive than a brand new small hybrid like the Yaris).

This is not EV for the masses.

2 battery-lease ones at around 9k at the moment on http://www.electricautos.ie/

troyzer

Ning wrote: »

troyzer wrote: »

How is it EV for the masses? It's a second hand product.

There are 38 Zoe's second hand on Done Deal.

Most of them are still over €20k (more expensive than a brand new small hybrid like the Yaris).

This is not EV for the masses.

2 battery-lease ones at around 9k at the moment on http://www.electricautos.ie/

Oh right. So two cars = cars for the masses.

Maybe you don't know what the term masses means?

EV is too niché at the moment and the whole premise of this thread was to talk about the obviously huge potential market of sub €20k, cheap, short distance EV cars which would be ideal either for city dwellers or people who are eco friendly and perhaps have two household cars. One could be electric and the other a diesel or hybrid.

This is the game changer.

Pointing to a rare, second hand car which is fabulously overpriced compared to a similar ICE car is not a solution.

cena

any of them get you from galway to Belfast and the same day

Ning

troyzer wrote: »

Oh right. So two cars = cars for the masses.

Maybe you don't know what the term masses means.

"For the masses" -> this is a pricing statement, not an availability statement. If there is demand, the offer (availability) will follow. You're obviously mixing both concepts.

troyzer

Ning wrote: »

troyzer wrote: »

Oh right. So two cars = cars for the masses.

Maybe you don't know what the term masses means.

"For the mass" -> this is a pricing statement, not an availability statement. If there is demand, the offer (availability) will follow. You're obviously mixing both concepts.

I'm not mixing concepts.

The idea of an EV for the masses implies a scale of production which brings down the unit costs and actually makes EVs cost competitive.

So a car for the masses refers both to price and availability.

If there was one Zoe for €20, anyone could afford it but it wouldn't be a car for the masses now would it? Similarly, you could have 100,000 Zoes on forecourts all over the country but if it's €100k it's not a car for the masses.

Technologies like hybrids and EVs have to be supply led, not demand led.

They are simply too expensive as it stands for the average punter to get one. I'm an environmentalist and I just couldn't justify paying so much extra for one.

The Zoe has the trim level of a much cheaper car and that's after all of the tax exemptions and rebates. EVs are fundamentally over priced and the market is not going to buy them in big numbers until they come down.

Andy From Sligo

Ning wrote: »

2 battery-lease ones at around 9k at the moment on http://www.electricautos.ie/

appear to be good prices - so am I presuming electric cars loose a lot of value in the used market sector?

unkel

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

appear to be good prices - so am I presuming electric cars loose a lot of value in the used market sector?

No. EVs depreciate less than ICE cars.

The Zoes are very cheap second hand because you will have to pay a monthly battery lease forever. Buy one now, even cheaply, and you will not be able to sell it on. Sale proof. That's why there are so many for sale in the UK.

Andy From Sligo

unkel wrote: »

No. EVs depreciate less than ICE cars.

The Zoes are very cheap second hand because you will have to pay a monthly battery lease forever. Buy one now, even cheaply, and you will not be able to sell it on. Sale proof. That's why there are so many for sale in the UK.

ah right i see thanks

Bowlardo

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Even, take every dual car house in Dublin. I bet you could swap 1 car in each household for an electric and they would never need to use a public charger because they would have the combustion engine to do long range. Exactly as I do.

In regards to extensive load space.....buy a van

100% agree with this.

Alkers

Shefwedfan wrote:

That's with a 26kWh battery. In reality for 90% of Dublin a 26kWh battery would be more than enough. That would be enough to drop off kids, go to work, pick up kids, go home....still have range to do shops/gym etc....then top up at night.....

That's spot on for a second car only though, any one car family or person who uses a car with work etc can't be plugging in to charge every 100km.

mr chips

jackofalltrades wrote: »

And why 300km, it's not a scientific number, but I'd say it's at about the range where the masses would start taking electric cars seriously.

I'm not being flippant when I say this but consumers don't need to back up their requirements with data.

Yeah, there occasionally seems to be a tendency to dismiss those who say they have a need for longer range. The commute in particular weighs heavily on people's thoughts - mine used to be a round trip of 100 miles/160km, on top of driving another 50+ miles again for work through the day. The thought of doing that is pretty hellish now but I did it for 9 years and it's a reality for plenty of folk still. For the ordinary working stiff, a used Kona or Niro are the only current prospects for a halfway affordable option to cover that sort of distance and even they're not as user-friendly as the ICE alternatives.
IMO mainstream acceptance of EVs sadly won't happen until charging times get to the point that it takes no more than 15 minutes to add another 120 miles/200km of range, in a car where this represents maybe two thirds of its maximum range. I'm not saying this to undermine/dismiss the case for EVs, but as someone who has invested six grand in a PV array for the house and used to run the car on biodiesel made from waste cooking oil as a cleaner alternative to derv. In other words, I'm extremely keen on having an EV - but at this point, there isn't an affordable option available that suits my needs, and I've a very good idea of what those needs are. I'm very much looking forward to the point where in 4-5 years, I'll be able to consider a used version of this year's or next year's new-to-market EVs. I just wish they'd been brought out 5+ years ago so that I could stop burning stuff in order to get around right now.

Shefwedfan

troyzer wrote: »

How is it EV for the masses? It's a second hand product.

There are 38 Zoe's second hand on Done Deal.

Most of them are still over €20k (more expensive than a brand new small hybrid like the Yaris).

This is not EV for the masses.

Usedcarsni

Charles Hurst
They have a constant supply at circa 5k, seem to be over 5k at moment so price going up and not down compared to last year

They will deliver down south as well

Shefwedfan

Shefwedfan wrote: »

For the discussion about a city car. In reality I use my eGolf as a city car. Range today as I had aircon/heated seats/normal mode was just over 100km....all travel done outside rush hour and I was in a rush...so no saving range

That's with a 26kWh battery. In reality for 90% of Dublin a 26kWh battery would be more than enough. That would be enough to drop off kids, go to work, pick up kids, go home....still have range to do shops/gym etc....then top up at night.....

Everyone asking for 200/300km range have no actual data to back up that requirement.

A small car with a 20-30kWh battery starting new at 15-20k would fly out the doors because it would meet everyone requirements. Of course people will complain about range so they will go to a larger battery and higher price and then people will complain about price....

It's a no win situation.

Even, take every dual car house in Dublin. I bet you could swap 1 car in each household for an electric and they would never need to use a public charger because they would have the combustion engine to do long range. Exactly as I do.

Bowlardo wrote: »

100% agree with this.

It's irreverent what us EV owners think, what's relevant is what the majority of the motoring public think or are concerned about and that's range and the availability of chargers and also recharge times, people are not dumb, they know the Public charger situation is diabolical and they are not willing to put up with low range and a poor network, queuing etc.

While yes, the majority of us will charge at home most of the time etc etc etc, the fact is when you need the network it just doesn't work as I experienced yesterday when I went to the Airport from Carlow. 1 charger in use, a 40 Kwh Leaf pulled up just before me at the garage at the Airport and 2 other DC chargers down, come on.......the Rex saved the day again, otherwise I would have had to wait up to 1 hr or more for a 10 min charge.

Shefwedfan

I have said it a few times, if you don’t want to buy an electric car you can come up with 100 reasons not to...

If you do want to buy one it is fairly simple to go out and buy one, plenty available in all price brackets

Shefwedfan

Shefwedfan wrote: »

....
In regards to extensive load space.....buy a van

I mentioned my requirements and was told to test drive an EV to open my eyes.

I don't see why EV fans get so p1ssy when someone has motoring requirements that EVs can't meet.

unkel

Augeo wrote: »

I mentioned my requirements and was told to test drive an EV to open my eyes.

That's not what happened. You mentioned your requirement. I then said:

unkel wrote: »

No reasonably priced EVs can do that yet.

From reading your posts in this and other threads, I got the impression that you are a bit hostile to EVs. I also got the impression that you've never driven one. Maybe I'm wrong here. But I do know from a lot of anecdotal evidence that most people who drive a modern EV for the first time, are very pleasantly surprised by the experience. Many people describe it as an eye opener.

unkel

unkel wrote: »

That's not what happened. You mentioned your requirement. I then said:
....r.

This is what you said...in full, including the open your eyes speel and your imo smarmy wink.

unkel wrote: »

No reasonably priced EVs can do that yet. Still go test drive an EV. Costs nothing and might open your eyes

........

Regarding your impression of my views...... it's considered in many quarters that people's impressions are mirrors of their own insecurities

When an EV can carry as much bulk as my Sorento, do 300 miles+ on a charge and be bought for under €40K I'll consider it an option if those are my needs come trade in time. I do have a like for AWD too. Marvellous feature. Eye opening stuff. You should try AWD yourself. You might find it eye opening.

unkel

I've driven an AWD EV from 0-100km/h in 4s

It was a test drive and it cost me nothing. I'm not sure what you are so afraid of to not want to give it a try.

unkel

unkel wrote: »

I've driven an AWD EV from 0-100km/h in 4s

It was a test drive and it cost me nothing. I'm not sure what you are so afraid of to not want to give it a try.

Again, your impression is that I'm afraid of something.....I think that's a reflection of your own insecurities or else you're trying to get a reaction. You won't I believe it's more likely the insecurity thing though .....you should really work on that for the new year

To clarify, I only test drive what ticks enough boxes for me. In your own words. No EV does that currently
(No reasonably priced EVs can do that yet.)
No fear old boy, just rational thinking.

heroics

[Deleted User] wrote: »

It's irreverent what us EV owners think, what's relevant is what the majority of the motoring public think or are concerned about and that's range and the availability of chargers and also recharge times, people are not dumb, they know the Public charger situation is diabolical and they are not willing to put up with low range and a poor network, queuing etc.

While yes, the majority of us will charge at home most of the time etc etc etc, the fact is when you need the network it just doesn't work as I experienced yesterday when I went to the Airport from Carlow. 1 charger in use, a 40 Kwh Leaf pulled up just before me at the garage at the Airport and 2 other DC chargers down, come on.......the Rex saved the day again, otherwise I would have had to wait up to 1 hr or more for a 10 min charge.

I can’t believe this but I agree with mad_lad. most people can drive an EV on a daily basis but they are worried about the time they want to got to Sligo from Dublin or something like that and they have spent a fortune on their car. If it’s an ICE and they run out of fuel 10 mins max and they are back into the road fully fuelled. I hate waiting and wasting time. I can’t imagine having to plan a trip based on chargers.

Personally I don’t like the look of any EV at the moment. I am looking at a new car and want an estate (couple of kids) and currently drive a 5 series saloon. Looking for something similar around 2017/2018. What EV would Suit me? 30k per year mainly motorway.

volchitsa

I totally agree with the OP - as someone who really worries about climate change and wants to use less energy, it winds me up so much that so many "environmentally friendly" choices seem to be a way of squeezing the customer for more money. Not just electric cars, though that's probably the worst example : Dyson and Tesla are all about building top of the range expensive cars, and Dyson's building his "British" car in China it seems - well if I were British I'd find that very hard to take!

But seriously, how many Chinese people are going to be able to buy his car? It's an aspirational thing I bet - millionaire Chinese guys will spend massive sums not proving how rich they are at all, oh no. It will really be for the environment. And no sign of a Henry Ford of EVs anywhere, only Mercedes and Ferrari equivalents. It makes me wonder if the people who say it's all a scam might not have a point.

Shefwedfan

volchitsa wrote: »

I totally agree with the OP - as someone who really worries about climate change and wants to use less energy, it winds me up so much that so many "environmentally friendly" choices seem to be a way of squeezing the customer for more money. Not just electric cars, though that's probably the worst example : Dyson and Tesla are all about building top of the range expensive cars, and Dyson's building his "British" car in China it seems - well if I were British I'd find that very hard to take!

But seriously, how many Chinese people are going to be able to buy his car? It's an aspirational thing I bet - millionaire Chinese guys will spend massive sums not proving how rich they are at all, oh no. It will really be for the environment. And no sign of a Henry Ford of EVs anywhere, only Mercedes and Ferrari equivalents. It makes me wonder if the people who say it's all a scam might not have a point.

China are making own, the likes of BYD and Nio(Tesla of china) are making affordable electric cars

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/qz.com/1463563/your-next-car-could-be-electric-and-chinese/amp/

Hence why the bigger European/US are scrambling to win that Chinese market

Shefwedfan

Augeo wrote: »

I mentioned my requirements and was told to test drive an EV to open my eyes.

I don't see why EV fans get so p1ssy when someone has motoring requirements that EVs can't meet.

Who is getting pi**y, you want electric car with load space then buy a electric van.....Nissan sell one, others as well....VW haveone

Shefwedfan

heroics wrote: »

I can’t believe this but I agree with mad_lad. most people can drive an EV on a daily basis but they are worried about the time they want to got to Sligo from Dublin or something like that and they have spent a fortune on their car. If it’s an ICE and they run out of fuel 10 mins max and they are back into the road fully fuelled. I hate waiting and wasting time. I can’t imagine having to plan a trip based on chargers.

Personally I don’t like the look of any EV at the moment. I am looking at a new car and want an estate (couple of kids) and currently drive a 5 series saloon. Looking for something similar around 2017/2018. What EV would Suit me? 30k per year mainly motorway.

Your requirements are not met by electric yet, same as my ford galaxy. No option at moment, not even a hybrid

Personally if it was me with those requirements I would buy A6 Avant