Where are the electric cars for the masses?

Water John

This new addition to battery chemistry, MXene developed in Ireland, looks like a big breakthrough in battery technology.

'The researchers behind the breakthrough said it will potentially enhance the lifespan of rechargeable batteries, while also allowing them to become smaller without a loss in performance.' Silicon Republic

https://www.siliconrepublic.com/machines/amber-irish-nanomaterial-smartphone-batteries

KCross

When I see nanotechnologies and nanomaterials it makes me skeptical. Too many examples of misuse of those words.

Hopefully it is true but you get alot of these battery breakthroughs, usually around the time they need to raise money, that never see the light of day.

Markcheese

Battery tech, and is advancing in leaps and bounds and we're still tweaking 1980 lithium batteries ( kind of),
There are totally new batteries being worked on too, but expect them to be seriously commercial in 10 to 20 years.. (even with all the money that's being pumped into research)
But every major leap in energy density and weight makes a steady in road in to costs, and ultimately a battery motor design is simpler and more reliable than an engine and gearbox..
And without having to pay as much for fuel...

NoBread

unkel wrote: »

Also the above Kona EV is very powerful with acceleration times about the same as a Golf GTI turbo petrol

The acceleration times aren't the same at all to be fair.

ELM327

NoBread wrote: »

The acceleration times aren't the same at all to be fair.

Golf GTi 2019 0-62mph/100km/h time 6.4 seconds:
https://www.evo.co.uk/volkswagen/golf-gti


Kona EV ~7 seconds
https://www.autoevolution.com/news/hyundai-kona-electric-does-0-to-100-km-h-in-71-seconds-in-acceleration-test-127385.html


Interestingly, the kona is the same 0-100 time as a mark5 GTI

NoBread

ELM327 wrote: »

Golf GTi 2019 0-62mph/100km/h time 6.4 seconds:
https://www.evo.co.uk/volkswagen/golf-gti


Kona EV ~7 seconds
https://www.autoevolution.com/news/hyundai-kona-electric-does-0-to-100-km-h-in-71-seconds-in-acceleration-test-127385.html


Interestingly, the kona is the same 0-100 time as a mark5 GTI

Hyundai themselves say 7.6 seconds. That's a world of difference. Even knocking over half a second off makes a big difference.

[Deleted User]

Over the years I've been hearing of battery break troughs in the labs but 99.9 % of the "breakthroughs" didn't happen. It was more to do with getting funding than anything else.

Batteries are evolving but nothing like some people think.

Mickeroo

There was a lot of stuff in the news last year about solid state carbon based batteries which would be a huge game changer if it came to pass.

Shefwedfan

Mickeroo wrote: »

There was a lot of stuff in the news last year about solid state carbon based batteries which would be a huge game changer if it came to pass.

VW invested in one company and have on a roadmap Solid state for 2025....that would tie into a 5 year framework for the tender they released



https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/volkswagen-aims-solid-state-battery-production-2025

ELM327

Mickeroo wrote: »

There was a lot of stuff in the news last year about solid state carbon based batteries which would be a huge game changer if it came to pass.

Solid state batteries are still years, perhaps decades, away from production. I'd say within 10 years we could see them starting in hypercars in the stratosphere pricewise ... at best.

[Deleted User]

Solid state batteries look to be the next big thing for sure but if they can get batteries into cars by 2025 I'll be impressed.

I bet Toyota are kicking themselves they have not a hint of any form of EV in sight.

Still, it's possible their billions of hydrogen R&D might find uses in larger commercial applications. But the energy needed to produce and store hydrogen is mind boggling.

Shefwedfan

Deleted User wrote: »

Solid state batteries look to be the next big thing for sure but if they can get batteries into cars by 2025 I'll be impressed.

I bet Toyota are kicking themselves they have not a hint of any form of EV in sight.

Still, it's possible their billions of hydrogen R&D might find uses in larger commercial applications. But the energy needed to produce and store hydrogen is mind boggling.

If they have in 2025 it will be in the Porsche/Audi model at high cost. Not for us poor sap's!!!!

ELM327

Deleted User wrote: »

Solid state batteries look to be the next big thing for sure but if they can get batteries into cars by 2025 I'll be impressed.

I bet Toyota are kicking themselves they have not a hint of any form of EV in sight.

Still, it's possible their billions of hydrogen R&D might find uses in larger commercial applications. But the energy needed to produce and store hydrogen is mind boggling.

Hydrogen will not be used as a fuel in the next 50 years anyway.
Ironically EVs might help the use of hydrogen in the longer term, if we get better at renewables then the cost of hydrogen production can fall if it's produced on site where it's sold with renewable energy. Every car could be a phev (since hydrogen cars are already hybrids anyway), EV range for short term use but refill quicker with hydrogen on the run.

Mike9832

NoBread wrote: »

The acceleration times aren't the same at all to be fair.

Having drove both ( 151 GTi 225ps manual )

I would back myself in a 0-100, 80- 120, in the Kona everytime, need to be a great driver to get equivalent performance from the GTi gearbox

Its pace between 30-80 is the Konas party trick imo, like most small petrol engines the Golf is terrible pulling at that speed compared to the Kona

Past 120 the Kona has no chance, have yet to drive an EV good at pulling at motorway speed

Even a Tesla struggles, Porsche supposedy has this issue fixed

[Deleted User]

ELM327 wrote: »

Solid state batteries are still years, perhaps decades, away from production. I'd say within 10 years we could see them starting in hypercars in the stratosphere pricewise ... at best.

You're probably correct, they key to knowing this is that if Apple or Samsung have no Solid state batteries then it's highly unlikely we'll see them in cars for years, they're incredibly expensive.

[Deleted User]

Shefwedfan wrote: »

If they have in 2025 it will be in the Porsche/Audi model at high cost. Not for us poor sap's!!!!

I doubt they will , not in 2025, they are too expensive even for super cars.

[Deleted User]

ELM327 wrote: »

Hydrogen will not be used as a fuel in the next 50 years anyway.
Ironically EVs might help the use of hydrogen in the longer term, if we get better at renewables then the cost of hydrogen production can fall if it's produced on site where it's sold with renewable energy. Every car could be a phev (since hydrogen cars are already hybrids anyway), EV range for short term use but refill quicker with hydrogen on the run.

Who knows, technology is moving a lot faster today than ever and 50 years will provide a mega leap in technology we can't possibly imagine today and who knows, there might even be a new technology we couldn't even dream of today.

The problem with Hydrogen is storage and apart form the energy to produce it it takes a lot of energy to liquefy it to -270 odd degrees C and it's easy to escape.

The issue with renewables is that we will be playing catch up for a long time, we're consuming more and more electricity every year and the more we electrify transport the more renewables we have to put on the grid. This will create enormous challenges in the coming years what accounts for 30% of energy created from renewables in 2018 might account for 1% by 2030 if more and more electric cars plug into the grid despite more and more renewables being put on the grid, I think a lot of people fail to realise the amount of energy in petrol and diesel that is not being sucked out of the grid.

And in Ireland we have yet to understand that yes, Solar PV does work even given our climate but investors want the fastest return on investment and they feel wind will get them this and more profit , at least that's how I see it. The Government should push for solar PV to be mandatory on the grid and we should have solar PV on every roof top in Ireland.

Also if I understand this correctly, more and more new homes have to have heat pumps so not only are we putting Electric cars on the grid we are putting the heating of homes on the grid too, not that that's a bad thing, it's the way it should be but our demand for electricity will grow beyond what we can imagine then add data Centres to the mix, some of them consume 60-70 Mw of continuous power and it's rapidly growing.

[Deleted User]

Mike9832 wrote: »

Having drove both ( 151 GTi 225ps manual )

I would back myself in a 0-100, 80- 120, in the Kona everytime, need to be a great driver to get equivalent performance from the GTi gearbox

Its pace between 30-80 is the Konas party trick imo, like most small petrol engines the Golf is terrible pulling at that speed compared to the Kona

Past 120 the Kona has no chance, have yet to drive an EV good at pulling at motorway speed

Even a Tesla struggles, Porsche supposedy has this issue fixed

Electrics are great at low end power but the power falls off beyond 120 Km/h because there is no gearbox.

But having said that electric cars could be given less lower end power and higher mid - top end power but they are designed like that on purpose.

Higher voltage batteries will allow electric cars to get much faster top speeds too. Higher voltage allows higher top speeds a lot easier , more current for torque.

ELM327

Deleted User wrote: »

Who knows, technology is moving a lot faster today than ever and 50 years will provide a mega leap in technology we can't possibly imagine today and who knows, there might even be a new technology we couldn't even dream of today.

The problem with Hydrogen is storage and apart form the energy to produce it it takes a lot of energy to liquefy it to -270 odd degrees C and it's easy to escape.

The issue with renewables is that we will be playing catch up for a long time, we're consuming more and more electricity every year and the more we electrify transport the more renewables we have to put on the grid. This will create enormous challenges in the coming years what accounts for 30% of energy created from renewables in 2018 might account for 1% by 2030 if more and more electric cars plug into the grid despite more and more renewables being put on the grid, I think a lot of people fail to realise the amount of energy in petrol and diesel that is not being sucked out of the grid.

And in Ireland we have yet to understand that yes, Solar PV does work even given our climate but investors want the fastest return on investment and they feel wind will get them this and more profit , at least that's how I see it. The Government should push for solar PV to be mandatory on the grid and we should have solar PV on every roof top in Ireland.

Also if I understand this correctly, more and more new homes have to have heat pumps so not only are we putting Electric cars on the grid we are putting the heating of homes on the grid too, not that that's a bad thing, it's the way it should be but our demand for electricity will grow beyond what we can imagine then add data Centres to the mix, some of them consume 60-70 Mw of continuous power and it's rapidly growing.

Ireland has the potential to be self sufficient with a predominantly offshore wind based energy source backed up with solar and also some form of storage (either battery or hydro or both).


I just can't see hydrogen replacing the current fossil fuel infrastructure due to issues with storage and transport and energy loss. Hence why I was saying about microgeneration on the retail site.

ELM327

Deleted User wrote: »

Electrics are great at low end power but the power falls off beyond 120 Km/h because there is no gearbox.

But having said that electric cars could be given less lower end power and higher mid - top end power but they are designed like that on purpose.

Higher voltage batteries will allow electric cars to get much faster top speeds too. Higher voltage allows higher top speeds a lot easier , more current for torque.

I don't understand why there isnt the option of adding gearing like with fossil fuel engines.
Even 2/3 speeds (one for takeoff, one for eco cruising and one for ultimate top speed).


Original fossil fuel cars had one gear too, then we progressed.

Shefwedfan

Deleted User wrote: »

Electrics are great at low end power but the power falls off beyond 120 Km/h because there is no gearbox.

But having said that electric cars could be given less lower end power and higher mid - top end power but they are designed like that on purpose.

Higher voltage batteries will allow electric cars to get much faster top speeds too. Higher voltage allows higher top speeds a lot easier , more current for torque.

Msot countries have a speed limit of 120km or below. In the new nanny state asking for a car that has better speed over 120km will never get sorted :P

[Deleted User]

ELM327 wrote: »

I don't understand why there isnt the option of adding gearing like with fossil fuel engines.
Even 2/3 speeds (one for takeoff, one for eco cruising and one for ultimate top speed).


Original fossil fuel cars had one gear too, then we progressed.

I'd imagine it's down to cost and the fact that for the most part it's not necessary because of their electrically limited top speeds and you don't need a gearbox in an EV , where it's essential in an ICE.

Tesla tried and failed because the torque was eating gearboxes.

For lower powered cars it should be easy to do the problem is the instant power but I'm sure that can be limited in some way.

NoBread

I wouldn't dismiss hydrogen so quickly. Getting oil out from under a sea bed looked like a challenge 80 years ago but it's not only extracted, but refined and shipped to the customer for less than the price of milk per litre when you exclude tax.
If the demand is there, the means follows. What we really need to look at is the scenarios where what if every car was a BEV, how much lithium would be needed, what's the long term environmental impact in 50-100 years time. The answer is likely that we'll need more than one solution. Putting all the eggs into the batteries basket can't be good.
Hydrogen generation is also an excellent way of storing energy that would otherwise be completely lost. In those cases, it doesn't matter about the losses in the generation of it.

[Deleted User]

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Msot countries have a speed limit of 120km or below. In the new nanny state asking for a car that has better speed over 120km will never get sorted :P

Yes exactly and why add complexity and expense when it's not really necessary.

200 Km/h would only get a lot of folk into trouble anyway lol.

KCross

ELM327 wrote: »

I don't understand why there isnt the option of adding gearing like with fossil fuel engines.
Even 2/3 speeds (one for takeoff, one for eco cruising and one for ultimate top speed).


Original fossil fuel cars had one gear too, then we progressed.

Complexity and increased cost most likely? It easier to just tell the motor spin faster than to engineer a gearbox in.

The conversions, like the Beetle one, have gears but presumably thats because they already had a gearbox to work with.

Its interesting to watch him put it in top gear and pull away like it was first gear.

Shefwedfan

Deleted User wrote: »

Yes exactly and why add complexity and expense when it's not really necessary.

200 Km/h would only get a lot of folk into trouble anyway lol.

If you had constant acceleration with electric without a drop off you would be up to 200km/h in less than 20 seconds.....


People not even trying to speed would end up speeding....you will be surprised how many people go by the sound of the engine to dictate speed....arse revving out of it then too fast

[Deleted User]

NoBread wrote: »

I wouldn't dismiss hydrogen so quickly. Getting oil out from under a sea bed looked like a challenge 80 years ago but it's not only extracted, but refined and shipped to the customer for less than the price of milk per litre when you exclude tax.
If the demand is there, the means follows. What we really need to look at is the scenarios where what if every car was a BEV, how much lithium would be needed, what's the long term environmental impact in 50-100 years time. The answer is likely that we'll need more than one solution. Putting all the eggs into the batteries basket can't be good.
Hydrogen generation is also an excellent way of storing energy that would otherwise be completely lost. In those cases, it doesn't matter about the losses in the generation of it.

Currently a lot more lithium is used for consumer electronic devices than is used for electric cars.

There is plenty of lithium for electric cars just not in so politically stable countries and China controls a lot of raw materials.

Cobalt is the greatest worry but it can be substituted for other much more common minerals.

We're not dismissing Hydrogen but the facts remain, it's too energy intensive to produce hydrogen which is much more efficiently used to charge batteries. And it's too difficult to store at -270 Deg C which consumes enormous energy to get it that cold.

Enormous challenges remain for Hydrogen where as for now batteries are much better for cars/vans.

I can see a future for hydrogen in for large commercial applications, trucks, buses, trains and even planes but I think that's well into the future by which other technologies might exist.

samih

For normal driving I don't feel the need for any more speed. Even on Autobahn the L40 accelerated well enough above 120 km/h and the only problem is the battery capacity and in case of LEAF the battery overheating at high speeds. The drivetrain excluding the battery is good enough as is.

The AWD Teslas already have two gears in practice. The two motors are tuned differently and the front one provides the main grunt above 200 km/h. This is something ICE couldn't do.

ELM327

NoBread wrote: »

I wouldn't dismiss hydrogen so quickly. Getting oil out from under a sea bed looked like a challenge 80 years ago but it's not only extracted, but refined and shipped to the customer for less than the price of milk per litre when you exclude tax.
If the demand is there, the means follows. What we really need to look at is the scenarios where what if every car was a BEV, how much lithium would be needed, what's the long term environmental impact in 50-100 years time. The answer is likely that we'll need more than one solution. Putting all the eggs into the batteries basket can't be good.
Hydrogen generation is also an excellent way of storing energy that would otherwise be completely lost. In those cases, it doesn't matter about the losses in the generation of it.

Remind me again what sort of battery is in all hydrogen cars?
That's right, lithium ion. I think the mirai has a similar size li ion battery to the prius phev.
So hydrogen does not insulate us against lithium supply issues.

ELM327

Deleted User wrote: »

Currently a lot more lithium is used for consumer electronic devices than is used for electric cars.

There is plenty of lithium for electric cars just not in so politically stable countries and China controls a lot of raw materials.

Cobalt is the greatest worry but it can be substituted for other much more common minerals.

We're not dismissing Hydrogen but the facts remain, it's too energy intensive to produce hydrogen which is much more efficiently used to charge batteries. And it's too difficult to store at -270 Deg C which consumes enormous energy to get it that cold.

Enormous challenges remain for Hydrogen where as for now batteries are much better for cars/vans.

I can see a future for hydrogen in for large commercial applications, trucks, buses, trains and even planes but I think that's well into the future by which other technologies might exist.

Exactly. It doesn't work now, and BEVs are approaching the point where they work now. For BEV, it's the cost that doesnt work at the moment, the tech is there.


Hydrogen doesnt work at all, as they have similar range to new EVs (eg Kona, Model 3) for nearly double the price, without home charging, with no real infrastructure, and if you do find one of the 7 stations in the UK, (none in Ireland at all) the fuel is similarly priced to fossil fuels.