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Where are the electric cars for the masses?

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13567…15

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    #62
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    unkel wrote: »
    Most people never do even 100km in a day. And on the one or two occasions they do, if they could just fill up quickly enough, they'd be happy. A 15k EV would sell like hotcakes. But realistically we should be able to see a 200km WLTP supermini with basic enough spec for about €15k in a year or so

    I wouldn't hold my breath.

    Most people may never do 100 km a day but they think about when they do, most of us will charge at home/work but when you need to go away from home this is where the infrastructure becomes far more important.

    So 3 things at the back of most people's minds are, charge times, range and public chargers.


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    #63
    Andy From Sligo
    Registered Users Posts: 11,718 ✭✭✭✭Andy From Sligo


    talking of budget EV's has anyone ever seen anyone driving one of these 10grand Renault Twizy cars/electric vehicles ? - or have even had a go in one yourself?


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    #64
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    The only place I saw a twizy was a few times in Germany parked up at a train station.

    They're a great little car to get around town in if only they were a lot cheaper and had heat and proper sealed windows and didn't have battery rental. I would hope today that they are cheaper to buy and the battery lease should be a lot cheaper , battery charge times were also slow and they could not use the public network as they charged from normal 3 pin plug, I do not know if any updates were made to the twizy.

    A fun little car but to be honest you can convert a mountain bike to electric for a fraction of the cost ( em3ev.com ) , the Twizy offers safer driving and shelter from wind and rain with the optional window protectors or whatever Renault call them.

    I'd be happy to discuss electric bikes in a separate thread here in the EV motors section, I always get my threads closed and infractions for talking about electric bikes in the bicycle threads because some assholes there which might be die hard cycling purists fume at the thought of an electric bike.


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    #65
    Shefwedfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    Andy From Sligo wrote: »
    talking of budget EV's has anyone ever seen anyone driving one of these 10grand Renault Twizy cars/electric vehicles ? - or have even had a go in one yourself?

    Electricautos had one, not sure if he stil does

    A few knocking around for sale as advertisement cars...check donedeal


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    #66
    jackofalltrades
    Registered Users Posts: 3,235 ✭✭✭jackofalltrades


    unkel wrote: »
    Most people never do even 100km in a day. And on the one or two occasions they do, if they could just fill up quickly enough, they'd be happy.
    A 15k EV would sell like hotcakes. But realistically we should be able to see a 200km WLTP supermini with basic enough spec for about €15k in a year or so
    Yeah provided it has a real world range of about 300KM.
    Very few people want cars with a 100KM absolute maximum range.


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    #67
    liamog
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 7,795 Mod ✭✭✭✭liamog


    jackofalltrades wrote: »
    Yeah provided it has a real world range of about 300KM.
    Very few people want cars with a 100KM absolute maximum range.

    The VAG triplets are due by the end of year with a range of 300km.
    That's the updated e-Up, e-Citigo, and e-Mii. The target price for the e-Up is €20,000 I'd expect the Skoda version to start at around €18,000.


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    #68
    Shefwedfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    liamog wrote: »
    The VAG triplets are due by the end of year with a range of 300km.
    That's the updated e-Up, e-Citigo, and e-Mii. The target price for the e-Up is €20,000 I'd expect the Skoda version to start at around €18,000.

    300km would be the 49kWh battery, I’m not sure that will be 20k, hopefully it will, if so Vw will rule the market place

    I would guess they will offer a city car with lower range at entry price and the a long range 300km version at similar price to entry Neo at 25k


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    #69
    unkel
    Registered Users Posts: 64,808 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    jackofalltrades wrote: »
    Yeah provided it has a real world range of about 300KM.
    Very few people want cars with a 100KM absolute maximum range.

    Why the 300km though? Small petrol city cars a few decades ago didn't have a range of 300km. And they owners couldn't care less. Provided of course you don't have to go to a pharmacy during weekdays from 9-5.30 to buy petrol jerrycans every time you run out. We need a decent fast charging network. And cheap EVs. Cheap and cheerful works well in Ireland (and most other EU countries) given the recent success of Dacia.


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    #70
    ELM327
    Registered Users Posts: 21,395 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    unkel wrote: »
    Why the 300km though? Small petrol city cars a few decades ago didn't have a range of 300km. And they owners couldn't care less. Provided of course you don't have to go to a pharmacy during weekdays from 9-5.30 to buy petrol jerrycans every time you run out. We need a decent fast charging network. And cheap EVs. Cheap and cheerful works well in Ireland (and most other EU countries) given the recent success of Dacia.


    I remember my first car, a kent engined ford fiesta. Wasn't so good on fuel by today's standards, was getting around 35mpg around town.


    Range was approx 250 miles. I remember on trips around the country having to fill up twice :eek:


    That fiesta was the most common small car on the road as I remember. So 250 mile range should be plenty!


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    #71
    troyzer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,199 ✭✭✭troyzer


    ELM327 wrote: »
    unkel wrote: »
    Why the 300km though? Small petrol city cars a few decades ago didn't have a range of 300km. And they owners couldn't care less. Provided of course you don't have to go to a pharmacy during weekdays from 9-5.30 to buy petrol jerrycans every time you run out. We need a decent fast charging network. And cheap EVs. Cheap and cheerful works well in Ireland (and most other EU countries) given the recent success of Dacia.


    I remember my first car, a kent engined ford fiesta. Wasn't so good on fuel by today's standards, was getting around 35mpg around town.


    Range was approx 250 miles. I remember on trips around the country having to fill up twice :eek:


    That fiesta was the most common small car on the road as I remember. So 250 mile range should be plenty!

    250 miles is what, 400km?

    That's top shelf EV range.


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    #72
    ELM327
    Registered Users Posts: 21,395 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    It's current top shelf EV range.
    The Kona/Niro offer it at below 40k.
    In 2 years the likes of the kona and niro will have competition and be similarly priced to what the IOniq is now.


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    #73
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 17,728 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    unkel wrote: »
    Why the 300km though? Small petrol city cars a few decades ago didn't have a range of 300km. And they owners couldn't care less. ..........

    ...........because there was an extensively available, reliable and cost effective method of replenishing the range in less than 5 minutes :)
    Folk interested in a city car will typically do small mileage.

    10,000 miles at 30mpg at €1.50/l is €2,270

    If you consider loads of folk don't even do 10,000 miles a year and that most ICE city cars do in excess of 30mpg then the appeal of EV for city cars certainly isn't on a financial basis, IMO.


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    #74
    unkel
    Registered Users Posts: 64,808 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    Augeo wrote: »
    ...........because there was an extensively available, reliable and cost effective method of replenishing the range in less than 5 minutes :)

    And filling up your EV at home costs 80-90% less and only takes seconds, not 5 minutes and you don't have to go out of your way.

    On the rare occasion someone in a budget EV wants to go beyond the range, the current fast charging network is a problem. Which should be addressed.
    Augeo wrote: »
    Folk interested in a city car will typically do small mileage.

    10,000 miles at 30mpg at €1.50/l is €2,270

    Even at half that mileage (just 8k km), the fuel saving is about a grand a year. Combine that with the cheapest possible tax, cheaper insurance, discounts on tolls, almost zero maintenance and repairs, less depreciation and your total cost of ownership of a 15k EV is far, far lower than a similar price ICE car. Plus the environmental benefits. Plus the comfort of an EV - almost all low price ICE cars are still crude manual cars with a clutch pedal - a setup from the 19th century :pac:

    Embrace the future, Augeo. Just go test drive an EV. Any EV. And see what you think :)


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    #75
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 17,728 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    unkel wrote: »
    ...........

    Embrace the future, Augeo. Just go test drive an EV. Any EV. And see what you think :)

    I do at least 20k miles a year, 4/6 300 mile round trips/month and I need extensive load space.

    When EVs can accommodate me I'll embrace them if it suits me. Currently they don't :)
    My 200bhp, manual, AWD, Sorento does me perfectly. You can keep your embrace the future speel. No EV will suit me currently.

    unkel wrote: »
    ...............

    Even at half that mileage (just 8k km), the fuel saving is about a grand a year. Combine that with the cheapest possible tax, cheaper insurance, discounts on tolls, almost zero maintenance and repairs, less depreciation and your total cost of ownership of a 15k EV is far, far lower than a similar price ICE car. Plus the environmental benefits. Plus the comfort of an EV - almost all low price ICE cars are still crude manual cars with a clutch pedal - a setup from the 19th century :pac:.................

    But when you consider that even low mileage users will quite likely have some longer trips per annum and it makes little appeal to switch to EV if you will have to consider renting an ICE even for two weekends/year. Or for your stay at home vacation.

    You say the fast charging network problem should be addressed, well currently there are no plans to :)

    Also what EVs are about for €15k currently?


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    #76
    unkel
    Registered Users Posts: 64,808 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    Augeo wrote: »
    I do at least 20k miles a year, 4/6 300 mile round trips/month and I need extensive load space.

    No reasonably priced EVs can do that yet. Still go test drive an EV. Costs nothing and might open your eyes ;)
    Augeo wrote: »
    But when you consider that even low mileage users will quite likely have some longer trips per annum and it makes little appeal to switch to EV if you will have to consider renting an ICE even for two weekends/year. Or for your stay at home vacation.

    You say the fast charging network problem should be addressed, well currently there are no plans to :)

    Also what EVs are about for €15k currently?

    Ah here, we have discussed all these points already on this thread. Summary: you can already fast charge all EVs currently for sale. No need to have a second ICE car or rent an ICE car for the occasional longer trip. We do have a network of fast chargers in Ireland (about 100 vs about 1000 petrol stations). It needs improvement which it will get in the form of new money for ESB specifically for fast chargers (they have already upgraded several) and Ionity - plenty of improvements will be implemented this year. And lastly, no there are no 15k EVs yet but there should be soon enough (we are talking next year)


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    #77
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 17,728 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    unkel wrote: »
    No reasonably priced EVs can do that yet. Still go test drive an EV. Costs nothing and might open your eyes ;)...........

    [SNIP]

    Mod Note: Show some civility to other posters please.


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    #78
    unkel
    Registered Users Posts: 64,808 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    LOL yeah whatever


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    #79
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 17,728 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    unkel wrote: »
    .........


    Ah here,..........
    unkel wrote: »
    LOL yeah whatever


    Ah don't be glum ;)


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    #80
    KCross
    Registered Users Posts: 12,072 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    Augeo wrote: »
    I do at least 20k miles a year, 4/6 300 mile round trips/month and I need extensive load space.

    When EVs can accommodate me I'll embrace them if it suits me. Currently they don't :)
    My 200bhp, manual, AWD, Sorento does me perfectly. You can keep your embrace the future speel. No EV will suit me currently.

    The 20k miles is no issue. Many EV owners doing alot more than that. The issue is the long trips you have. You need a 60kWh+ EV for that.

    The Kona is the only one available outside super expensive Tesla cars.

    A Sorento is a good bit bigger so I assume the Kona would not suit you(?) which means you have no choice but ICE and thats fair enough... EV's are not for everyone yet by a long shot.

    Augeo wrote: »
    But when you consider that even low mileage users will quite likely have some longer trips per annum and it makes little appeal to switch to EV if you will have to consider renting an ICE even for two weekends/year. Or for your stay at home vacation.

    Renting for a few weekends a year wouldnt be for me and wont for the majority. You need the car you've paid good money for to do all your journeys. The infrastructure is the primary issue there. I wouldnt recommend an EV to a one car family unless they fully understood that long journeys could be a miserable tale (until the network is improved).

    For two car families, EV is a no brainer.

    If you are a 2 car family I would suggest you dig a little deeper. If the Sorento is all you have then fair enough... ICE for the foreseeable future.

    Augeo wrote: »
    You say the fast charging network problem should be addressed, well currently there are no plans to :)

    You're ill informed on that one

    There are multiple plans...
    - eCars have allocated €10m only a few weeks ago with shovels expected in the ground this year
    - Ionity have planning permission in for 3 sites with 6 more to be submitted... shovels should be in the ground as well this year.

    And those examples are for 150kW chargers with 4-6 chargers per site. It will remove all anxiety about chargers and queuing etc.


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    #81
    ELM327
    Registered Users Posts: 21,395 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    KCross wrote: »
    The 20k miles is no issue. Many EV owners doing alot more than that. The issue is the long trips you have. You need a 60kWh+ EV for that.

    The Kona is the only one available outside super expensive Tesla cars.

    A Sorento is a good bit bigger so I assume the Kona would not suit you(?) which means you have no choice but ICE and thats fair enough... EV's are not for everyone yet by a long shot.




    Renting for a few weekends a year wouldnt be for me and wont for the majority. You need the car you've paid good money for to do all your journeys. The infrastructure is the primary issue there. I wouldnt recommend an EV to a one car family unless they fully understood that long journeys could be a miserable tale (until the network is improved).

    For two car families, EV is a no brainer.

    If you are a 2 car family I would suggest you dig a little deeper. If the Sorento is all you have then fair enough... ICE for the foreseeable future.




    You're ill informed on that one

    There are multiple plans...
    - eCars have allocated €10m only a few weeks ago with shovels expected in the ground this year
    - Ionity have planning permission in for 3 sites with 6 more to be submitted... shovels should be in the ground as well this year.

    And those examples are for 150kW chargers with 4-6 chargers per site. It will remove all anxiety about chargers and queuing etc.


    +1 to this well written, informative and factually correct post.
    Frankly I think the post "cuck" remarks above from Augeo were a little/lot past the line of "don't be a dick"


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    #82
    Mike9832
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,912 ✭✭✭Mike9832


    ELM327 wrote: »
    It's current top shelf EV range.
    The Kona/Niro offer it at below 40k.
    In 2 years the likes of the kona and niro will have competition and be similarly priced to what the IOniq is now.

    If they are 30k or below

    Its end game for ICE

    I cant see it though

    2 years is not long enough

    Wont be enough competition out in volume

    When we see a Toyota EV we'll know its end game :)


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    #83
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Toyota invested billions in Hydrogen R&D and nothing to show for it, they're still selling hybrids with NiMh batteries with the odd tiny lithium plugin. They took a foolish path , I mean how could such a company think Hydrogen would ever become the main source of energy for transport, ?it's produced using fossil fuels and has to be cooled to -250 degrees to transport it, the inefficiency of hydrogen production is absolutely mind boggling and to the best on my knowledge no one has ever produced a container that does not leak hydrogen.

    Imagine the energy alone required to cool all this hydrogen to -250 degrees ? it was insane.

    All manufacturers should have been making hybrids 15 years ago.

    "self charging hybrids" lol


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    #84
    ELM327
    Registered Users Posts: 21,395 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    The only future for Hydrogen IMO is as a range extended PHEV (IE battery electric with a hydrogen fuel cell) for long distance semis etc
    And generated on site by renewables. But that's a push.


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    #85
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Yes, the "only" place I see hydrogen in in HGV usage, maybe Buses, perhaps planes ? but it's probably far too dangerous for planes. Maybe ships, but big city size cargo ships running on hydrogen with potential for explosion ? I'm not so sure.

    Trains ?

    Fuel cells are not as efficient as batteries and batteries have much higher power density, that's the ability to receive and deliver large mounts of current. And the last time I checked are far more vulnerable to cold.

    If Lithium air is good enough though that could be good enough for trucks if they can charge fast enough, say 1 Mw ? that's a crap load of energy though at just one charge plug. I'd imagine it and the plug would be massive.


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    #86
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 17,728 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    KCross wrote: »
    .......................

    A Sorento is a good bit bigger so I assume the Kona would not suit you(?) which means you have no choice but ICE and thats fair enough... EV's are not for everyone yet by a long shot.................

    I know that, I was being told to test drive an EV to open my eyes.
    ELM327 wrote: »
    +1 to this well written, informative and factually correct post.
    Frankly I think the post "cuck" remarks above from Augeo were a little/lot past the line of "don't be a dick"

    Winky faces etc and being told a test drive might open my eyes when no EV suits my needs is also a little/lot past the line of "don't be a dick" IMO :)


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    #87
    cros13
    Registered Users Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭cros13


    Augeo wrote: »
    I do at least 20k miles a year, 4/6 300 mile round trips/month and I need extensive load space.

    I do twice your annual mileage in a 22kWh i3. I'd advise a 60kWh+, but it actually possible to do that mileage in smaller battery EVs.
    The i3 is also a pretty good hauler with the rear seats folded, I've hauled multiple large appliances at once, king size bed frames etc.

    The incentive for higher mileage drivers to switch to EV is greater due to the running cost differences. In 4 years my i3 has saved €20-25k in fuel and maintenance over an equivalent combustion vehicle.


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    #88
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 17,728 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    cros13 wrote: »
    I do twice your annual mileage in a 22kWh i3.

    Good for you .......... do you need extensive load space?


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    #89
    rivegauche
    Registered Users Posts: 1,035 ✭✭✭rivegauche


    Renault Twingo, Smart ForFour and VW UP family are all engineered for electric drivetrains. Cars of this size will not receive or sell with electric drivetrains until they are more affordable or closer to the point in time when CO2 offsets are required.

    I find smaller electric cars attractive because they give the quietness and refinement of larger cars in a smaller footprint. I won't put up with a noisy little buzzbox. I want the smaller footprint but not willing to make the compromise necessary which at this stage forces me to drive a Compact Class car rather than a citycar or supermini.


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    #90
    cros13
    Registered Users Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭cros13


    Augeo wrote: »
    Good for you .......... do you need extensive load space?

    Yup, I use the i3 for a lot of stuff I used to use one of the vans for. The load floor starts a bit high but it's flat the whole way, load area is tall and boxy and the lack of B-Pillars even makes it easy to load through the side doors. I actually find it more practical for hauling than the Leafs (which are bigger vehicles).


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    #91
    liamog
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 7,795 Mod ✭✭✭✭liamog


    Shefwedfan wrote: »
    300km would be the 49kWh battery, I’m not sure that will be 20k, hopefully it will, if so Vw will rule the market place

    I would guess they will offer a city car with lower range at entry price and the a long range 300km version at similar price to entry Neo at 25k

    Just basing that on whats been reported so far, using the WLTP figures from the current Up, it would only need a 42kWh battery to hit a rated 300km. If VW can source 60Ah PHEV2 cells at a good price they could hit that target.


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