Brexit discussion thread V - No Pic/GIF dumps please

hill16bhoy · 06-12-2018 09:42PM

Scoondal wrote: »

Ah boo hoo. The argument can't be won so you cry " TROLL ".
I can debate according to facts. Have I said something here that is factually incorrect ?
If you cannot engage in debate, get off the stage.

"GET ON WITH IT!!!!!!"

An Ciarraioch · 06-12-2018 09:42PM

Enzokk wrote: »

Scoondal wrote: »

Ah boo hoo. The argument can't be won so you cry " TROLL ".
I can debate according to facts. Have I said something here that is factually incorrect ?
If you cannot engage in debate, get off the stage.

Provide links to your statement that recent polls showed a majority want to leave as you asserted. If you don't or can't then you are trolling, factually speaking.

Indeed YouGov has May's deal preferred to No Deal by 65% to 35%.

Scoondal · 06-12-2018 09:45PM

prawnsambo wrote: »

So you didn't vote for 'no deal' then. Otherwise you'd have loads of links for me to read about how that was offered as an option during the referendum. Grand so.

No. I am an Irish Citizen. Plug in your brain.

Beechwoodspark · 06-12-2018 09:48PM

Scoondal wrote: »

No. I am an Irish Citizen. Plug in your brain.

Hello there.

I see you have ignored my reply to you. Not very polite.

Anyway. Provide a link for your assertions please?

Thank you.

prawnsambo · 06-12-2018 09:51PM

Scoondal wrote: »

No. I am an Irish Citizen. Plug in your brain.

Well then I think I have just the solution for you.

Water John · 06-12-2018 09:53PM

The UK Govn't said it would respect the Ref, that's a choice they have. You are wrong in saying they must do so.

WinnyThePoo · 06-12-2018 09:57PM

UsedToWait wrote: »

I hate to see this thread derailed for pages at a time by trolls / attention seekers.

Just ignore them, and starve them of the oxygen they crave.

Great Post. I suggest others read it.

Scoondal · 06-12-2018 10:00PM

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Not all the 52% interpreted Leave as "trading on WTO terms", indeed, given the sizeable number of EFTA Brexiteers, along advocates of Turkey and Switzerland, "no dealers" are very much a minority.

Provide sources.

Kalyke · 06-12-2018 10:05PM

What I dont get is this notion that the result of the referendum must be honoured above all else..the people spoke, etc. But the people may have changed their mind due to being better informed? No, we cant hear you now that you are better educated about the facts. "We know better." Democracy is sacrosanct when it suits the bully. Well, if what the people say is SO important then bloody HELL listen to them NOW! The changing of opinions is what got women the vote and rid of slavery, etc.

prawnsambo · 06-12-2018 10:10PM

Kalyke wrote: »

What I dont get is this notion that the result of the referendum must be honoured above all else..the people spoke, etc. But the people may have changed their mind due to being better informed? No, we cant hear you now that you are better educated about the facts. "We know better." Democracy is sacrosanct when it suits the bully. Well, if what the people say is SO important then bloody HELL listen to them NOW! The changing of opinions is what got women the vote and rid of slavery, etc.

It's basically all about fear that the result would be overturned. It's ludicrous to suggest another vote would be undemocratic. But even so, I don't believe they need another referendum, just a government with the balls to govern. And Jeremy Corbyn needs to get the shepherd's crook. He's the most useless opposition leader I've ever seen.

Scoondal · 06-12-2018 10:13PM

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

Hello there.

I see you have ignored my reply to you. Not very polite.

Anyway. Provide a link for your assertions please?

Thank you.

Okay. I didn't see your link in your original post. So I threw out fake news. There have been a lot of posts quoting me, so your fact based link was lost in that stuff.
So, still 49% of those asked thought that "Britain" was wrong to vote to leave EU.
51% thought UK was either right t leave EU or "did not know". (Did not know ??)
But this poll proves my point. Or am I wrong.

Sam Russell · 06-12-2018 10:17PM

Kalyke wrote: »

What I dont get is this notion that the result of the referendum must be honoured above all else..the people spoke, etc. But the people may have changed their mind due to being better informed? No, we cant hear you now that you are better educated about the facts. "We know better." Democracy is sacrosanct when it suits the bully. Well, if what the people say is SO important then bloody HELL listen to them NOW! The changing of opinions is what got women the vote and rid of slavery, etc.

I think you need to understand that the Leave campaign was based on the British Parliament was to take back control. That means (according to Brexiteers) that Parliament is to be able to take back control of everything except that they cannot go against the vote of 52% of the people in a referendum marred by illegal funding, and stoked by lies and misinformation.

Of course it also required taking back control of the UK borders (with the exception of the land border with Ireland which will be left utterly open).

It is quite acceptable to trade under WTO rules, if only they knew what they were.

Of course, banning free movement of people from the EU will be a big win because that will allow more immigrants from India and Pakistan and other non-EU countries. That will be a win/win for the UK.

Not having the ECJ or the ECHR overseeing peoples rights is another win - we can reduce the labour protection laws and we can deport anyone we like (or dislike). Another win.

I think that is quite clear why people voted Leave. (Or at least some of them voted for some of the above).

Scoondal · 06-12-2018 10:21PM

I'd say 30% of Brits are die hard "world power / don't need these foreigners / rule the waves" types. Their opinion will always be correct. Then you have those who voted for Brexit but WILL NOT admit they were wrong. UK must save face. ( That boat has sailed ... We are already laughing at your vote / politics ). Then the remainers don't want a "deal" that leaves UK worse off. No one with a right mind in UK would support this stupid deal.

An Ciarraioch · 06-12-2018 10:26PM

Scoondal wrote: »

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Not all the 52% interpreted Leave as "trading on WTO terms", indeed, given the sizeable number of EFTA Brexiteers, along advocates of Turkey and Switzerland, "no dealers" are very much a minority.

Provide sources.

Nick Boles and Daniel Hannan both favour the EEA solution, as do the influential Norths, plus no deal loses every potential polling match-up:

https://mobile.twitter.com/EuropeElects/status/1070689905439854592

https://mobile.twitter.com/EuropeElects/status/1070690057244291072

https://mobile.twitter.com/EuropeElects/status/1070690541527023622

Headshot · 06-12-2018 10:31PM

What time is the vote Tuesday?

It will be riveting tv

Enzokk · 06-12-2018 10:33PM

https://twitter.com/aljwhite/status/1070747078576480257

Ok, so this is how Jacob Rees-Mogg does his business. I am not sure what the whole context of the clip is but JRM proclaims that the front bench and Theresa May made a "great mistake" by not guaranteeing the rights of EU citizens to stay in the UK right after the referendum.

The link in the second tweet from the 6th September this year has JRM stating that EU nationals will have no extra rights over other nationals from other countries. This is from the link in the tweet.

‘I do not believe there should be any special terms for EU migrants,’ he wrote to Labour peer Lord Adonis. ‘Once we have left the EU there will be no legal basis to treat them differently from migrants from non-EU countries.’

Thargor · 06-12-2018 10:38PM

Enzokk wrote: »

https://twitter.com/aljwhite/status/1070747078576480257

Ok, so this is how Jacob Rees-Mogg does his business. I am not sure what the whole context of the clip is but JRM proclaims that the front bench and Theresa May made a "great mistake" by not guaranteeing the rights of EU citizens to stay in the UK right after the referendum.

The link in the second tweet from the 6th September this year has JRM stating that EU nationals will have no extra rights over other nationals from other countries. This is from the link in the tweet.

Alastair Campbells face

Nody · 06-12-2018 10:42PM

Scoondal wrote: »

Provide sources.

How about from the horses's mouth so to speak of what the Brexiteers claimed during the campaign (and hence what people voted for when voting to leave)?

You know the part that does not mention leaving the single market, that talks about joining Norway/Switzerland etc. during the debate. You know; minor things like actual facts rather than 1984 style revision of history that the vote meant leaving everything connected to EU.

dr.fuzzenstein · 06-12-2018 10:49PM

Any Irish person who thinks that leave is a good idea is either batsh*t insane or trolling.

Scoondal · 06-12-2018 10:50PM

Nody wrote: »

How about from the horses's mouth so to speak of what the Brexiteers claimed during the campaign (and hence what people voted for?

You know the part that does not mention leaving the single market, that talks about joining Norway/Switzerland etc. during the debate. You know; minor things like actual facts rather than 1984 style revision of history.

I still think that it insulting to the UK electorate to tell them that they are wrong. It doesn't surprise me that they voted out because I have a low opinion of UK. But as per recent polls only 49% said "Britain" was wrong to leave EU.
And there you have it. Still 49%.
Do we really need idiots in EU ?

briany · 06-12-2018 11:12PM

Scoondal wrote: »

I still think that it insulting to the UK electorate to tell them that they are wrong. It doesn't surprise me that they voted out because I have a low opinion of UK. But as per recent polls only 49% said "Britain" was wrong to leave EU.
And there you have it. Still 49%.
Do we really need idiots in EU ?

It depends on how you tell them they're wrong. If you tell them so in a civil way, calmly providing facts and cases to support your argument, then it's not insulting. If it's still taken as an insult, then you're in a pretty dangerous place as society. We'd lose any sense of objective truth that we had and debates couldn't happen. Scientists would cling onto hypothesis they held, despite contrary evidence, because their feelings were hurt. It's not a way to go.

briany · 06-12-2018 11:19PM

A thought on Brexit - If you'd flipped the result of the referendum, would the 48 percent Leave vote have gotten on board with staying in the EU, or would they have continued to agitate?

Would Nigel Farage have accepted it as a decisive mandate?

Would Boris Johnson continued to run on a platform of Euro-scepticism, given the (ahem) overwhelming result?

Would mr. or mrs. Question Time "17.4 million people!" have popped EU flags onto the wing mirrors of their car?

Would any of them accepted a Remainer telling them, "Will of the people!"?

The answer is, no, of course not. That's why it's hilarious when they accuse Remainers of trying to scupper the Brexit process.

07-12-2018 12:04AM

briany wrote: »

A thought on Brexit - If you'd flipped the result of the referendum, would the 48 percent Leave vote have gotten on board with staying in the EU, or would they have continued to agitate?

Would Nigel Farage have accepted it as a decisive mandate?

Would Boris Johnson continued to run on a platform of Euro-scepticism, given the (ahem) overwhelming result?

Would mr. or mrs. Question Time "17.4 million people!" have popped EU flags onto the wing mirrors of their car?

Would any of them accepted a Remainer telling them, "Will of the people!"?

The answer is, no, of course not. That's why it's hilarious when they accuse Remainers of trying to scupper the Brexit process.

Farage famously said before the referendum about a remain victory:'In a 52-48 referendum this would be unfinished business by a long way. If the Remain campaign win two-thirds to one-third that ends it."

An Ciarraioch · 07-12-2018 12:26AM

Lucid Talk poll saying 62% in NI support remaining in SM and CU, even if GB doesn't (Evan Davis tweet - most details in paywalled Times article)!

https://mobile.twitter.com/AaronMcAllorum/status/1070821679671205888/photo/1

Shelga · 07-12-2018 12:28AM

If they do leave, and there’s another global economic crash where the likes of Italy and Greece are disproportionately affected, would the UK be more protected, as they won’t have to shell out to bail them out? Or Ireland, for that matter.

Were they always a bit more shielded from this anyway, by not being in the Eurozone? It seems like they have the best of everything at the moment and are absolutely mad to vote leave.

briany · 07-12-2018 12:30AM

Deleted User wrote: »

Farage famously said before the referendum about a remain victory:'In a 52-48 referendum this would be unfinished business by a long way. If the Remain campaign win two-thirds to one-third that ends it."

I seem to recall that point being brought up Julia Hartley Brewer on a recent QT, and she basically denied that he said it.

greenfield21 · 07-12-2018 12:40AM

Shelga wrote: »

If they do leave, and there’s another global economic crash where the likes of Italy and Greece are disproportionately affected, would the UK be more protected, as they won’t have to shell out to bail them out? Or Ireland, for that matter.

Were they always a bit more shielded from this anyway, by not being in the Eurozone? It seems like they have the best of everything at the moment and are absolutely mad to vote leave.

I don't know what would happen after brexit but If a crash came now for the world economy would it not be good for brexiters. The people are fed up as it is and world economy is said to have peaked. Imagine what a recession would do. Just look what's going on in France.

Shelga · 07-12-2018 12:42AM

greenfield21 wrote: »

I don't know what would happen after brexit but If a crash came now for the world economy would it not be good for brexit. The people are fed up as it is and world economy is said to have peaked. Imagine what a recession would do. Just look what's going on in France.

I’m not saying it would be good, just asking the question, as I struggle to see even a tiny single advantage of this fiasco.

bilston · 07-12-2018 12:57AM

Could be interesting goings on in London on Sunday. Tommy Robinson is supposedly leading a "Brexit Betrayal" march. Counter demos are planned.

I haven't heard much about this on the BBC or Sky etc but there is fair bit on social media.

Charles Babbage · 07-12-2018 01:12AM

The Times of London has
A LucidTalk poll for The Times reveals that 65 per cent of Northern Ireland voters would welcome a Brexit that keeps the province “closely tied to the EU, inside the single market and the customs union”, while the rest of the UK has a more arms-length arrangement.

Brexit discussion thread V - No Pic/GIF dumps please

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