TII Motorway Service Areas (MSA) Progress Thread

josip · 13-11-2018 4:41pm

marno21 wrote: »

MSAs are pocket change in comparison and have significant safety benefits though.

Thankfully the private sector has mainly sorted this issue, apart from the M18. Whoever wins the M18 MSA race is in for quite the payday.

As regards the Gorey Service Station, I thought it was the private sector, via the legal action that caused the delays and cost the state a bucketload in security costs?

13-11-2018 4:51pm

josip wrote: »

As regards the Gorey Service Station, I thought it was the private sector, via the legal action that caused the delays and cost the state a bucketload in security costs?

A legal action against the State's tendering process.

josip · 13-11-2018 4:56pm

Deleted User wrote: »

A legal action against the State's tendering process.

What was the outcome of that in the end?

13-11-2018 5:01pm

The legal challenge was eventually withdrawn after out of court talks (and a confidential settlement) between the two main consortiums that had bid for the MSA tenders.

The court action ended in mid 2017 and ended up costing TII €575,000 in legal fees.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/retail-and-services/applegreen-tedcastles-challenge-topaz-motorway-contracts-1.2317441

He told Judge Keane that SuperStop, in a specific instance, had tendered with regard to the lifespan of footpaths at the service stations rather than thickness.

There had been a tie in tenders and Topaz had been awarded a full 20 points in the tiebreak category on footpaths because it had tendered on thickness as against the 10 marks of SuperStop which had tendered on longevity.

The marks had been awarded in five categories of 20 and Topaz had ended up with 87 marks as against SuperStops 80 out of a total of 100, just a difference of seven.

Mr Jeffers said the life expectation of footpaths was 25 years and SuperStop had tendered on a lifetime of 40 years rather than on thickness.

blackwhite · 13-11-2018 6:39pm

Deleted User wrote: »

A legal action against the State's tendering process.

The State's tendering process was never the issue.

The slow-moving nature of our legal system was the real problem (much like the Apple planning in Athenry).

An unsuccessful tenderer saw a way to get several years of trading with reduced competition at their new sites offline sites on the M11 and M9, and figured the return from that would outweigh the legal costs.

tylercheribini · 13-11-2018 6:47pm

blackwhite wrote: »

The State's tendering process was never the issue.

The slow-moving nature of our legal system was the real problem (much like the Apple planning in Athenry).

An unsuccessful tenderer saw a way to get several years of trading with reduced competition at their new sites offline sites on the M11 and M9, and figured the return from that would outweigh the legal costs.

I doubt there was much will on the successful tenderers part to open for business either, M11 site would possibly become far more viable with opening of Enniscorthy bypass within the next 7-8 months.

serfboard · 13-11-2018 6:52pm

marno21 wrote: »

MSAs are pocket change in comparison and have significant safety benefits though.

Thankfully the private sector has mainly sorted this issue, apart from the M18. Whoever wins the M18 MSA race is in for quite the payday.

This is almost a perfect lesson in economics.

The state is suppposed to invest in areas deemed necessary where it is useful to have the asset in state hands, or the private sector is unwilling to invest.

Here, since the private sector was falling over each other trying to throw money at it, the government should have just let them build the MSAs as well - and lengthen the franchise in return. After all, we have DBFOs on the motorways so why not on the MSAs too?

blackwhite · 13-11-2018 7:02pm

tylercheribini wrote: »

I doubt there was much will on the successful tenderers part to open for business either, M11 site would possibly become far more viable with opening of Enniscorthy bypass within the next 7-8 months.

Not so sure about that logic for the M9 site - given they went a sunk a large sum into the Carlow services.

If they had certainty on the M9 on-line site at the time I doubt that project would have gone ahead, or if it did it would have been a smaller scale.

tylercheribini · 13-11-2018 8:00pm

blackwhite wrote: »

Not so sure about that logic for the M9 site - given they went a sunk a large sum into the Carlow services.

If they had certainty on the M9 on-line site at the time I doubt that project would have gone ahead, or if it did it would have been a smaller scale.

As a local resident of the M11 service area, I attended some of the oral hearings and the NRA's(its title then) logic for the site chosen was their was no suitable rest stop from Dublin to Gorey. In the interim the Coynes Cross service area has been opened in a fraction of the time,thus rendering that argument null and void. By the NRA's own admission their projected footfall figures were based on Celtic Tiger levels of economic growth also, another reason it now is not needed. As Ronald Reagan said "The most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the government and I'm here to help." In this instance the private sector should have been left to its own devices because the state couldnt have f***ked it up more if they tried.

secman · 13-11-2018 8:09pm

ongarboy wrote: »

Circle K advertising for shop and deli staff for their Gorey MSA so an opening before Christmas sounds plausible.

They also say in this article that they'll be opening MSAs in Wexford, Westmeath and 2 in Kildare. Apart from Gorey and Moate, where are the locations of the 2 Kildare MSAs they are referring to, does anyone know?

https://www.checkout.ie/forecourt-rebrand-comes-full-circle/67422

The completion date for the Gorey site is now pushed out to about 2nd to 3rd week of February 19.
The Goff site is due to open in 3rd week of Nov 18, 23rd or thereabouts, top brass coming over from Canada for the grand opening.

tylercheribini · 13-11-2018 8:17pm

secman wrote: »

The completion date for the Gorey site is now pushed out to about 2nd to 3rd week of February 19.

Source?

13-11-2018 8:37pm

blackwhite wrote: »

The State's tendering process was never the issue.

Applegreen consortium clearly wanted to win the tender as they submitted a competitive bid.

Applegreen consortium didn't win the tender, their belief that this was due to a technicality and a poorly thought out scoring system that didn't reflect the reality of the submitted tenders.

Applegreen pursue court action.

It's not the State's fault for creating a tendering process that left them open to court action, nor is it the State's fault for not recouping the €550,000 in legal fees, nor is it the State's fault for not seeking damages for the upkeep of the MSAs during the legal proceedings?

I'm sorry, but I have to question your thought processes in assigning cause & blame.

That's rather nonsensical.

serfboard · 13-11-2018 9:11pm

Deleted User wrote: »

It's not the State's fault for creating a tendering process that left them open to court action

It's the job of lawyers to find challengeable parts to contracts/tenders which they can then pursue on behalf of their clients.

IMO it would not have been possible to design a tender that would be totally litigation-proof.

blackwhite · 13-11-2018 10:57pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Applegreen consortium clearly wanted to win the tender as they submitted a competitive bid.

Applegreen consortium didn't win the tender, their belief that this was due to a technicality and a poorly thought out scoring system that didn't reflect the reality of the submitted tenders.

Applegreen pursue court action.

It's not the State's fault for creating a tendering process that left them open to court action, nor is it the State's fault for not recouping the €550,000 in legal fees, nor is it the State's fault for not seeking damages for the upkeep of the MSAs during the legal proceedings?

I'm sorry, but I have to question your thought processes in assigning cause & blame.

That's rather nonsensical.

If you paid any attention to any of the developments of online and offline MW services in this country you’d see a massive pattern of protectionism for existing sites, and exploration of any avenue possible to try and block competition.

Applegreen clealry wanted to win the tenders.
When they didn’t the legal challenge wasn’t primarily to try and overturn the decision - it was simply to delay the project whilst they got their own site on the same routes established first.

Standard tactics in plenty of markets - not just the Irish retail sector

spacetweek · 13-11-2018 11:11pm

tylercheribini wrote: »

As Ronald Reagan said "The most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the government and I'm here to help." In this instance the private sector should have been left to its own devices because the state couldnt have f***ked it up more if they tried.

Oh dear. How lucky we are he was never our president.
We are currently having Celtic Tiger levels of growth again. Do you think traffic on the M11 is insignificant? What about the boost the Gorey site will get when the Enniscorthy extension opens? The only f**k up was letting the trials go on as long as they did.

serfboard wrote: »

IMO it would not have been possible to design a tender that would be totally litigation-proof.

Yes but see above, the litigation shouldn't have gone on so long.

secman · 13-11-2018 11:12pm

tylercheribini wrote: »

Source?

Horses mouth so to speak , programme is way behind.

tylercheribini · 14-11-2018 12:52am

spacetweek wrote: »

Oh dear. How lucky we are he was never our president.
We are currently having Celtic Tiger levels of growth again. Do you think traffic on the M11 is insignificant? What about the boost the Gorey site will get when the Enniscorthy extension opens? The only f**k up was letting the trials go on as long as they did.

Yes but see above, the litigation shouldn't have gone on so long.

Never stated anywhere I would have ever wanted him as our President but sure even if he was he would have been as toothless as Michael D or any of his predecessors.

"We are currently having Celtic Tiger levels of growth again"

Is this an FG bot? Again not what I said anyway, like much of Celtic Tiger doctrine, "projections" were complete pie in the sky based on unsustainable and exponential growth.Already previously stated that the M11 site will possibly become more viable after Enniscorthy scheme opening. Again, go back and read my post on the original premise for the sites construction in the first place,from somebody who was at the hearings and read their "analysis", id dig out the cd rom again if i was arsed.

Silent Running · 14-11-2018 8:42am

secman wrote: »

Horses mouth so to speak , programme is way behind.

Does the horse know if there is an EV charger on the Gorey site?

Probably not seeing as this site was started before the explosion of new EVs.

secman · 14-11-2018 6:50pm

Silent Running wrote: »

Does the horse know if there is an EV charger on the Gorey site?

Probably not seeing as this site was started before the explosion of new EVs.

2 in Gorey , none in Goffs .

marno21 · 24-11-2018 3:04am

Gorey MSA to open before year end

https://www.independent.ie/regionals/goreyguardian/news/m11-service-station-to-open-in-late-2018-37544875.html

24-11-2018 1:54pm

blackwhite wrote: »

If you paid any attention to any of the developments of online and offline MW services in this country you’d see a massive pattern of protectionism for existing sites, and exploration of any avenue possible to try and block competition.

Applegreen clealry wanted to win the tenders.
When they didn’t the legal challenge wasn’t primarily to try and overturn the decision - it was simply to delay the project whilst they got their own site on the same routes established first.

Standard tactics in plenty of markets - not just the Irish retail sector

The tender over the long term is far more valuable than a couple of years for their site offline at the N11.

A look at their reason for appealing the tender does not appear to be spurious or based on a technicality at all - their tender beat the Topaz tender on all areas other than footpaths, and the footpath criteria appeared to be nonsensically based on depth rather than usable lifespan (here's a hint: when tendering for a period of time, the tender should be scored based on lifespan/lifetime characteristics, not characteristics on day one).

That said, you're arguing that Applegreen's primary reason for appealing the tender wasn't to overturn the decision (which would result in far higher economic benefit for them) or to reach a settlement (which would result in higher economic benefit to them), it was primarily to delay opening so they could run an offline service station for two-three years.

Your arguments are rather illogical and not grounded on anything beyond vague conspiracy theories and ignorance, but more power to you!

blackwhite · 24-11-2018 3:14pm

Deleted User wrote: »

The tender over the long term is far more valuable than a couple of years for their site offline at the N11.

A look at their reason for appealing the tender does not appear to be spurious or based on a technicality at all - their tender beat the Topaz tender on all areas other than footpaths, and the footpath criteria appeared to be nonsensically based on depth rather than usable lifespan (here's a hint: when tendering for a period of time, the tender should be scored based on lifespan/lifetime characteristics, not characteristics on day one).

That said, you're arguing that Applegreen's primary reason for appealing the tender wasn't to overturn the decision (which would result in far higher economic benefit for them) or to reach a settlement (which would result in higher economic benefit to them), it was primarily to delay opening so they could run an offline service station for two-three years.

Your arguments are rather illogical and not grounded on anything beyond vague conspiracy theories and ignorance, but more power to you!

Or based on over a decade working in the industry, and knowing some of the parties involved.

But hey - lets just get into some personal abuse instead if that’s what you need to make yourself feel good about yourself :rolleyes:

Aontachtoir · 24-11-2018 7:48pm

A side question: why do we refer to it as the Gorey MSA when Arklow is both larger and several kilometres closer?

OldMrBrennan83 · 24-11-2018 8:05pm

Aontachtoir wrote: »

A side question: why do we refer to it as the Gorey MSA when Arklow is both larger and several kilometres closer?

I wondered that myself. Maybe it's something to do with it being in Wexford (not sure if it is) or that it's on the newer stretch of road which is the Gorey bypass section.

24-11-2018 9:02pm

blackwhite wrote: »

But hey - lets just get into some personal abuse instead if that’s what you need to make yourself feel good about yourself :rolleyes:

Pretty sure his post tore yours to shreds with no personal attacks. Feel free to report posts if you think there's a case of "playing the man not the ball"

road_high · 25-11-2018 2:29am

How’s the Kilcullen M9 one coming along? Seem to be working away on it. Is that going to be a Topaz or Applegreen?

spacetweek · 25-11-2018 8:30pm

road_high wrote: »

How’s the Kilcullen M9 one coming along? Seem to be working away on it. Is that going to be a Topaz or Applegreen?

Dunno but I hear it'll open next summer.

tylercheribini · 25-11-2018 9:45pm

Aontachtoir wrote: »

A side question: why do we refer to it as the Gorey MSA when Arklow is both larger and several kilometres closer?

Its just inside the Wexford border so I'd imagine its much like domestic addresses including the nearest town in county its located in rather than proxmity to nearer towns. Postal address of service area will end in Gorey, Co. Wexford.

josip · 25-11-2018 10:58pm

tylercheribini wrote: »

Its just inside the Wexford border so I'd imagine its much like domestic addresses including the nearest town in county its located in rather than proxmity to nearer towns. Postal address of service area will end in Gorey, Co. Wexford.

I thought it was usually the opposite?
Although we live in Co. Kilkenny, our nearest postal town is New Ross, so our postal address is New Ross, Co. Wexford.

flazio · 26-11-2018 11:23am

josip wrote: »

I thought it was usually the opposite?
Although we live in Co. Kilkenny, our nearest postal town is New Ross, so our postal address is New Ross, Co. Wexford.

Really? Because people from east of Ballinasloe would have their postal address as Taughmaconnel (for example) Ballinasloe, Co. Roscommon. Even though Ballinasloe is in Galway.

Sam Russell · 26-11-2018 2:44pm

Mod: Can we leave the postal address disputes to the An Post disputes resolution section. It is off topic here.

If you want to discuss such matters open a new thread.

tylercheribini · 26-11-2018 6:49pm

flazio wrote: »

Really? Because people from east of Ballinasloe would have their postal address as Taughmaconnel (for example) Ballinasloe, Co. Roscommon. Even though Ballinasloe is in Galway.

There are always going to be anomalies (especially in this country!), some overlap with landline prefixes too, generally speaking though for postal its nearest town in county.

OldMrBrennan83 · 26-11-2018 6:52pm

I don't care if it's Arklow, Gorey, or even Inch so long as they open the bloody thing soon. Feck all decent chances for a coffee going from Dublin to Wexford.

serfboard · 26-11-2018 6:56pm

Patww79 wrote: »

Feck all decent chances for a coffee going from Dublin to Wexford.

Well when it's open it's going to be Circle K, so I don't think anything is going to change there!

Actually, does anyone know what cafe is going to open as part of this, if any? Insomnia?

OldMrBrennan83 · 26-11-2018 6:58pm

serfboard wrote: »

Well when it's open it's going to be Circle K, so I don't think anything is going to change there!

Actually, does anyone know what cafe is going to open as part of this, if any? Insomnia?

If it's Circle K then probably their own machines just. Be nice to be able to just park to get one though.

ongarboy · 26-11-2018 7:52pm

Circle K do a "Simply Great Coffee" brand. I imagine a place like this will have a barista offering with sit down facilities as well as self service options. Not sure if they are partnering with outside brands like Applegreen do.

ongarboy · 06-12-2018 9:34am

Circle K invests €3.7m in new N7 station (via @IrishTimes) https://www.irishtimes.com/business/retail-and-services/circle-k-invests-3-7m-in-new-n7-station-1.3721520

Ok, according to this article, Circle K now saying Gorey MSA won't open until February while Kilcullen and Moate will be October and November of next year. They have just opened a much enhanced forecourt at Kill on the N7 eastbound.

jd · 18-01-2019 6:34pm

Reply to email I sent to TII regarding Gorey Service Station

Dear JD,

The position in relation to your enquiry is as follows.

..

Following the withdrawal of the legal challenge, discussions were resumed with the Preferred Bidder, Circle K (formerly, Topaz), and the contract was signed in July 2018.
Works commenced on the fit-out of the Gorey Service Area in September 2018 following site mobilisation and it is anticipated that the facility will open in Q2, 2019.

radharc · 18-01-2019 8:16pm

jd wrote: »

Reply to email I sent to TII regarding Gorey Service Station

Did they give a date for the other Services (Kilcullen and Athlone)?

Aontachtoir · 19-01-2019 3:12am

I was on the M8 for the first time in months recently and was very pleased to see that TII have replaced the glum "no online services ahead" signs at Glanmire with a much cheerier one listing the location of AND distance to the various services on the motorway. No more hand-waving saying that there are offline services in 40, 80, and 120 km, if you can find them.

We're spoiled now.

(I was not driving the car when this photo was taken).

Bards · 19-01-2019 9:53am

Wouldn't you think TII would list the nearest service station first and the farthest one last....

blindsider · 19-01-2019 5:56pm

Why are TII listing 'off-line' services?

There's a brown services sign on the M8 which I followed recently. I was delighted to find that the 'services facility' was several Km from the motorway.....and CLOSED! Granted, it was after 9pm on a Friday night, but I didn't appreciate the wild goose chase!

radharc · 19-01-2019 8:03pm

blindsider wrote: »

Why are TII listing 'off-line' services?

There's a brown services sign on the M8 which I followed recently. I was delighted to find that the 'services facility' was several Km from the motorway.....and CLOSED! Granted, it was after 9pm on a Friday night, but I didn't appreciate the wild goose chase!

I believe it is a quid pro quo for the removal of those trailers in fields advertising the services.

I think it is valuable information for motorists and it is right that the info is displayed, particularly where there has been such a lack of official services.

Aontachtoir · 20-01-2019 2:46am

blindsider wrote: »

Why are TII listing 'off-line' services?

There's a brown services sign on the M8 which I followed recently. I was delighted to find that the 'services facility' was several Km from the motorway.....and CLOSED! Granted, it was after 9pm on a Friday night, but I didn't appreciate the wild goose chase!

The M8 ones are technically "offline" in that you have to travel on a few metres of non-motorway road to get to them, but they're all directly adjacent to the motorway junctions and offer a good range of facilities. They're as good as the online services, as far as I can see. I don't know what facilities you could get at the Castlebellingham services (for example) that you can't get at the Cashel or Durrow services. I'm not sure about opening hours but I've never seen any of the M8 services closed.

Kevwoody · 20-01-2019 12:49pm

Bards wrote:

Wouldn't you think TII would list the nearest service station first and the farthest one last....

The signs are laid out as per the Traffic Signs Manual. All Advance Directional signage has the furthest (Terminal) destination at the top, and the closest at the bottom.

blindsider · 20-01-2019 5:11pm

Aontachtoir wrote: »

The M8 ones are technically "offline" in that you have to travel on a few metres of non-motorway road to get to them, but they're all directly adjacent to the motorway junctions and offer a good range of facilities. They're as good as the online services, as far as I can see. I don't know what facilities you could get at the Castlebellingham services (for example) that you can't get at the Cashel or Durrow services. I'm not sure about opening hours but I've never seen any of the M8 services closed.

I have no problem with travelling a few metres, or even a bit more. It's the services signs that direct you a couple of km away that are the issue.

jd · 20-01-2019 8:05pm

radharc wrote: »

Did they give a date for the other Services (Kilcullen and Athlone)?

I didn't ask about them, sorry. I asked solely about Gorey.

jd · 20-01-2019 8:07pm

Aontachtoir wrote: »

I'm not sure about opening hours but I've never seen any of the M8 services closed.

I'd hope that services on those signs are 24 hour, with adequate toilet facilities and parking spaces for HGVs

secman · 10-02-2019 12:31am

OldMrBrennan83 wrote: »

I don't care if it's Arklow, Gorey, or even Inch so long as they open the bloody thing soon. Feck all decent chances for a coffee going from Dublin to Wexford.

19th March is latest opening date.

spacetweek · 17-02-2019 9:03pm

secman wrote: »

19th March is latest opening date.

Do you have a source?

TII Motorway Service Areas (MSA) Progress Thread

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