Exit poll: The post referendum thread. No electioneering.

Loafing Oaf · 01-11-2018 07:32PM

Igotadose wrote: »

He's still in the Dail, though. Too bad he wasn't removed.

And, as much as I want him gone from the Dail, I don't want another election anytime before the first round of legislation is law.

Still, that's another conscienceless wanker gone. Hopefully more to follow.

Is he 'gone' though? I don't think there will be an election in the next six months, and if he sees out his suspension presumably he's back in the party and all is forgiven and forgotten.

Hotblack Desiato · 01-11-2018 07:54PM

Third offence is a kneecapping though.

pleas advice · 01-11-2018 09:14PM

Igotadose wrote: »

Still, that's another conscienceless wanker gone. Hopefully more to follow.

or, you know, maybe the exact opposite?

Loafing Oaf · 06-11-2018 02:02PM

So rather than a list of GPs opting in or opting out of abortion services,

A new HSE helpline will provide women seeking terminations with the names of doctors in their locality who provide abortion services.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/hse-to-help-women-find-doctors-who-provide-abortion-services-883388.html

Looks like Simon Harris or whoever is masterminding this process has it all figured out.

Igotadose · 06-11-2018 02:11PM

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

So rather than a list of GPs opting in or opting out of abortion services,

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/hse-to-help-women-find-doctors-who-provide-abortion-services-883388.html

Looks like Simon Harris or whoever is masterminding this process has it all figured out.

180 amendments. Is that an unusually high amount for legislation in Ireland? One hopes the 'noise' amendments from the anti-women types can be simply rejected (like the mandatory ultrasounds and funeral garbage).

Hopefully the 3 day waiting period will be dropped, seems like that's a possibility.

Will it be possible to, retroactively, determine who in the Dail proposed which amendment? Is that kind of information available?

eviltwin · 06-11-2018 02:58PM

Igotadose wrote: »

180 amendments. Is that an unusually high amount for legislation in Ireland? One hopes the 'noise' amendments from the anti-women types can be simply rejected (like the mandatory ultrasounds and funeral garbage).

Hopefully the 3 day waiting period will be dropped, seems like that's a possibility.

Will it be possible to, retroactively, determine who in the Dail proposed which amendment? Is that kind of information available?

It's a load of time wasting guff. There is no need for anything relating to scans or heartbeats to be written into the legislation, it can just be at the request of the woman. It's not written into UK law and they offer such services.

Personally I believe their inclusion is to bring us down a US style law where the opportunity to avail of such services soon becomes mandatory.

You can't even hear a heartbeat until around the 8 week point, hopefully women in need of abortion would be able to access one long before this point.

Igotadose · 06-11-2018 03:02PM

eviltwin wrote: »

It's a load of time wasting guff. There is no need for anything relating to scans or heartbeats to be written into the legislation, it can just be at the request of the woman. It's not written into UK law and they offer such services.

Personally I believe their inclusion is to bring us down a US style law where the opportunity to avail of such services soon becomes mandatory.

You can't even hear a heartbeat until around the 8 week point, hopefully women in need of abortion would be able to access one long before this point.

100% agree. My interest is in who proposed those amendments, important to vote those **** out in the next GE.

I also have hope that the 3 day waiting period is minimized somehow, so that it's technically in the legislation but realistically can be circumvented.

uptherebels · 06-11-2018 03:49PM

Is there a list of the proposed amendments anywhere?

Hotblack Desiato · 06-11-2018 04:15PM

Igotadose wrote: »

180 amendments. Is that an unusually high amount for legislation in Ireland?

Probably.
According to the IT today, dozens of them are changing each reference in the bill to "pregnant person" to "person of any sex who is pregnant" :rolleyes: I expect them to all be dealt with together and dismissed summarily.

One hopes the 'noise' amendments from the anti-women types can be simply rejected (like the mandatory ultrasounds and funeral garbage).

IIRC if the govt moves to dismiss an amendment once it's been read, it won't proceed to debate unless 10 TDs are in favour.

Hopefully the 3 day waiting period will be dropped, seems like that's a possibility.

Hopefully, especially as the GPs are already complaining and they'll not want a second appointment which isn't medically necessary.

Will it be possible to, retroactively, determine who in the Dail proposed which amendment? Is that kind of information available?

Yes it'll (after a few days probably) be in the Dail debate record on https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/find/

The helpline proposal seems like a good and pragmatic solution and should in practice eliminate the need for referral.

Loafing Oaf · 30-11-2018 05:32PM

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/simon-harris-defends-u-turn-on-abortion-pqw22mjqf

Bill slowly making its away through the Dail, and amendments being given the old heave ho as it does so.

This one seemed particularly idiotic, if those proposing it accepted the basic principle of abortion 'without restriction' in the first 12 weeks.

Politicians rejected a number of amendments from anti-abortion TDs, including a proposal to ban abortion on grounds of race, sex or disability up to 12 weeks. Under the bill, abortion would not be legal on such grounds but a woman would have the right to access an abortion up to 12 weeks with no reason required.

Mr Harris said he had spoken to doctors who advised that accepting the amendment would have made a law legalising abortion up to 12 weeks “inoperable” because it would mean doctors would have to know a woman’s thoughts and her reasons.

Did you really need to 'speak to doctors' to work that one out Simo?

Igotadose · 02-12-2018 11:02AM

Looks like there's a meeting of GP's coming up to discuss the upcoming implementation of the repeal. https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2018/1202/1014612-gps-meeting-about-concerns-over-abortion-services/

Simon Harris is quoted as saying the law on conscientious objection hasn't changed. Anyone know what, exactly, the state of this is? I didn't think it was resolved at all.

Igotadose · 02-12-2018 05:58PM

And... seems like some walked out on the meeting. Would love to know who walked out and what their 'motions' were.

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2018/1202/1014612-gps-meeting-about-concerns-over-abortion-services/

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 02-12-2018 06:53PM

Igotadose wrote: »

And... seems like some walked out on the meeting. Would love to know who walked out and what their 'motions' were.

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2018/1202/1014612-gps-meeting-about-concerns-over-abortion-services/

Well, the article says it’s mostly anti-abortion doctors.

The article also says that abortion will be available up to nine weeks. Was that what was said in the draft legislation? I thought it was twelve weeks.

Loafing Oaf · 02-12-2018 07:02PM

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Well, the article says it’s mostly anti-abortion doctors.

The article also says that abortion will be available up to nine weeks. Was that what was said in the draft legislation? I thought it was twelve weeks.

AFAIK GPs will be providing medical abortion up to nine weeks. Later than that women will be referred to hospitals.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 02-12-2018 07:04PM

I don’t know about any other yes voters, but I never expected all doctors to provide the service and I don’t think they should have to if they don’t want. A good smattering of GPs giving the service around each county will be enough.

Loafing Oaf · 02-12-2018 07:12PM

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

I don’t know about any other yes voters, but I never expected all doctors to provide the service and I don’t think they should have to if they don’t want. A good smattering of GPs giving the service around each county will be enough.

Apparently some 300 GPs have signed up to provide the service, which should be more than enough.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 02-12-2018 07:15PM

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

Apparently some 300 GPs have signed up to provide the service, which should be more than enough.

I think so, yes. Should be more than enough.

nice_guy80 · 02-12-2018 08:01PM

A lot of them who walked out appear to be retired GPs

foreverandever · 02-12-2018 08:11PM

A lot of Gps who went to that meeting are pro choice but there’s issues that need to be addressed

1. No huge proof that GP led abortion services are the best
2. No access to ultrasound for dating scans
3. Why isn’t contraception free for every woman first
4. Why are they being paid more to provide abortion services rather than maternity care to women
5. GPs are over subscribed at the moment, it is going to be extremely difficult to properly provide women with the counselling and treatment they deserve for abortion services

Yes a lot of the doctors who walked out were pro life but there are so many issues that need to be addressed the government are just glossing over. Women in Ireland have been treated so badly but rushing into a poorly planned service is not the answer

Igotadose · 02-12-2018 08:27PM

foreverandever wrote: »

A lot of Gps who went to that meeting are pro choice but there’s issues that need to be addressed

1. No huge proof that GP led abortion services are the best
2. No access to ultrasound for dating scans
3. Why isn’t contraception free for every woman first
4. Why are they being paid more to provide abortion services rather than maternity care to women
5. GPs are over subscribed at the moment, it is going to be extremely difficult to properly provide women with the counselling and treatment they deserve for abortion services

Yes a lot of the doctors who walked out were pro life but there are so many issues that need to be addressed the government are just glossing over. Women in Ireland have been treated so badly but rushing into a poorly planned service is not the answer

Uhh... so your item #3 is irrelevant - what does it matter whether contraception's free or not? Other than as an obvious delaying tactic. Is it free anywhere in the world that provides abortion?
Item #4, again, delaying tactic and irrelevant

Item #5: see item #4. They'll be paid. GP's oversubscribed, would love to see that data.

Item #6: Why does that matter? And what alternative that implements the will of the public by January have you got instead? This was all discussed in the citizens assembly as far as I recall.

As for the ultrasound, why is that necessary? Was it a provision of the law? If it is, it needs to be resolved. If not, it doesn't.

Watching a couple interviews with the usual anti-choice doctor suspects (O'Regan, Fuller, McGuire), it's just more lies and delay. I actually think looking at the images online that way fewer than 50 doctors left, and the ones talking to the media haven't gotten over the referendum result.

Further, it's very important to know which doctors do and don't provide abortion services. I like the helpline, but a list of names maintained in public (probably anonymously since the libel laws in Ireland are so out of control) would be best.

foreverandever · 02-12-2018 08:35PM

Igotadose wrote: »

Uhh... so your item #3 is irrelevant - what does it matter whether contraception's free or not? Other than as an obvious delaying tactic. Is it free anywhere in the world that provides abortion?
Item #4, again, delaying tactic and irrelevant

Item #5: see item #4. They'll be paid. GP's oversubscribed, would love to see that data.

Item #6: Why does that matter? And what alternative that implements the will of the public by January have you got instead? This was all discussed in the citizens assembly as far as I recall.

As for the ultrasound, why is that necessary? Was it a provision of the law? If it is, it needs to be resolved. If not, it doesn't.

Watching a couple interviews with the usual anti-choice doctor suspects (O'Regan, Fuller, McGuire), it's just more lies and delay. I actually think looking at the images online that way fewer than 50 doctors left, and the ones talking to the media haven't gotten over the referendum result.

Further, it's very important to know which doctors do and don't provide abortion services. I like the helpline, but a list of names maintained in public (probably anonymously since the libel laws in Ireland are so out of control) would be best.

Free contraception- because one of the most important things for post abortion care is contraception, that’s not been addressed.

Yes GPs are being paid- but why are they paid more to provide an abortion service than health care to a pregnant woman and baby

If women aren’t sure about their dates then they need a scan as the pills are only effective up to a certain number of weeks gestation. Some of the waiting lists for ultrasounds are up to a year in some counties

Most GPs have patients who have had abortions, Women who may never told their families or partners. The vast majority of GPs support the services but not what the government is offering at the moment, that’s the issue

nice_guy80 · 02-12-2018 11:01PM

foreverandever wrote: »

Igotadose wrote: »

Uhh... so your item #3 is irrelevant - what does it matter whether contraception's free or not? Other than as an obvious delaying tactic. Is it free anywhere in the world that provides abortion?
Item #4, again, delaying tactic and irrelevant

Item #5: see item #4. They'll be paid. GP's oversubscribed, would love to see that data.

Item #6: Why does that matter? And what alternative that implements the will of the public by January have you got instead? This was all discussed in the citizens assembly as far as I recall.

As for the ultrasound, why is that necessary? Was it a provision of the law? If it is, it needs to be resolved. If not, it doesn't.

Watching a couple interviews with the usual anti-choice doctor suspects (O'Regan, Fuller, McGuire), it's just more lies and delay. I actually think looking at the images online that way fewer than 50 doctors left, and the ones talking to the media haven't gotten over the referendum result.

Further, it's very important to know which doctors do and don't provide abortion services. I like the helpline, but a list of names maintained in public (probably anonymously since the libel laws in Ireland are so out of control) would be best.

Free contraception- because one of the most important things for post abortion care is contraception, that’s not been addressed.

Yes GPs are being paid- but why are they paid more to provide an abortion service than health care to a pregnant woman and baby

If women aren’t sure about their dates then they need a scan as the pills are only effective up to a certain number of weeks gestation. Some of the waiting lists for ultrasounds are up to a year in some counties

Most GPs have patients who have had abortions, Women who may never told their families or partners. The vast majority of GPs support the services but not what the government is offering at the moment, that’s the issue

Maybe the loveboth crowd can start campaigning for all that

spookwoman · 03-12-2018 12:58AM

foreverandever wrote: »

Free contraception- because one of the most important things for post abortion care is contraception, that’s not been addressed.

You do know contraception does fail and it's probably why many of these women are seeking abortions.

foreverandever wrote: »

Yes GPs are being paid- but why are they paid more to provide an abortion service than health care to a pregnant woman and baby

They get paid by either the patient or the state even when someone visits them for a dose of the clap. Where does it say they will get paid more for this service because as it is many doctors charge €60 just to see the for a cough and €25 for a repeat prescription.

foreverandever wrote: »

If women aren’t sure about their dates then they need a scan as the pills are only effective up to a certain number of weeks gestation. Some of the waiting lists for ultrasounds are up to a year in some counties

Most women will take a pregnancy test as soon as they miss their period and pregnancy tests are pretty accurate even with early dating. I dont know they may provide ultrasound machines in some practices and I do know some already have em around here

foreverandever wrote: »

Most GPs have patients who have had abortions, Women who may never told their families or partners. The vast majority of GPs support the services but not what the government is offering at the moment, that’s the issue

Most of the time the doctor will be just giving out 2 tablets and sending them on their way. If there are problems which is rare then you would go to the hospital. a week or so later then they would get a followup to see of it was a success. If its later then yes a referral to the hospital or whatever for I think its an Aspiration abortion. But most of the time this will be like going into the chemist and getting the morning after pill. They say about 3 women a day travel to the uk so that is not going to put any pressure on doctors.

Geuze · 03-12-2018 01:43AM

spookwoman wrote: »

They get paid by either the patient or the state even when someone visits them for a dose of the clap. Where does it say they will get paid more for this service because as it is many doctors charge €60 just to see the for a cough and €25 for a repeat prescription.

They will get 450 for this service.

It seems they get less for maternity.

volchitsa · 03-12-2018 06:01AM

Geuze wrote: »

They will get 450 for this service.

It seems they get less for maternity.

GPs don't deliver babies any more, but going by costs in places that charge to the patient, like the US, I very much doubt an obstetrician gets less than 450€ for attending a birth. They get thousands in America.

Calina · 03-12-2018 08:34AM

foreverandever wrote: »

A lot of Gps who went to that meeting are pro choice but there’s issues that need to be addressed

1. No huge proof that GP led abortion services are the best
2. No access to ultrasound for dating scans
3. Why isn’t contraception free for every woman first
4. Why are they being paid more to provide abortion services rather than maternity care to women
5. GPs are over subscribed at the moment, it is going to be extremely difficult to properly provide women with the counselling and treatment they deserve for abortion services

Yes a lot of the doctors who walked out were pro life but there are so many issues that need to be addressed the government are just glossing over. Women in Ireland have been treated so badly but rushing into a poorly planned service is not the answer

Better to provide no service and condemn them to the boat and planes for another while yet.

Your talking points are pure prevention of abortion talking points.

foreverandever · 03-12-2018 08:57AM

Calina wrote: »

Better to provide no service and condemn them to the boat and planes for another while yet.

Your talking points are pure prevention of abortion talking points.

Nope women have waited so long for this, providing a sub standard ill thought out service is not the answer and disrespectful.

nice_guy80 · 03-12-2018 09:08AM

foreverandever wrote: »

Calina wrote: »

Better to provide no service and condemn them to the boat and planes for another while yet.

Your talking points are pure prevention of abortion talking points.

Nope women have waited so long for this, providing a sub standard ill thought out service is not the answer and disrespectful.

What's the alternative?

foreverandever · 03-12-2018 09:25AM

nice_guy80 wrote: »

What's the alternative?

Proper centres where they have access to ultrasounds, counsellors, contraception and follow up care. Like a well woman’s clinic. Similar to what’s in other countries. Not run by pro-life/people with alternative motives. They don’t need one in every town but easy access to them for women.

Igotadose · 03-12-2018 09:37AM

More delaying tactics. Some org of 300-odd nurses and midwives are complaining about not having their fifis met, err, not being consulted. Overall there are in excess of 65,000 nurses and midwives. So, 300-odd ones to dictate policy to the rest:https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/pro-life-midwives-and-nurses-gather-signatures-amid-abortion-legislation-fears-888307.html

In this article, at least, it does whip on the Dail some for focusing on other things (like a FF motion to promote cycling, ffs), rather than completing the legislation: https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/abortion-services-crisis-as-gps-walk-out-889424.html

It really is delaying tactics up and down by the hatebothers. Note that the number of dr's that walked out from the EGM keeps shrinking, the article now says 'dozens' which is what I count in the picture (of course, that's just a picture.)

Exit poll: The post referendum thread. No electioneering.

Comments