Exit poll: The post referendum thread. No electioneering.

Annabella1

Sofiztikated wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/government-to-pay-for-couples-to-have-ivf-treatment-1.3242402

A vague maybe promise for 2019
Why isn’t the state equally supportive for those who want a pregnancy

Loafing Oaf

Annabella1 wrote: »

A vague maybe promise for 2019

Whereas the state is already subsidising abortions?

Igotadose

Annabella1 wrote: »

A vague maybe promise for 2019
Why isn’t the state equally supportive for those who want a pregnancy

Because IVF is an expensive luxury when you don't have enough hospital beds? Better the State reforms the horrible adoption rules in this country, solves the problem and improves real lives.

iguana

As someone who has experienced difficulty conceiving and has never experienced an unwanted pregnancy I genuinely don't understand your point. Infertility is absolute hell but it's not the same as unwanted pregnancy. Having something growing inside you, making you ill and causing pain, changing your body for good and ending with a person in the world who is your child whether you have to raise them or give them up is a completely and totally different experience to infertility. Just because they both concern reproductive function doesn't make them the same thing or even two sides of the same coin. They aren't. Please don't conflate women's reproductive issues as one thing. It's reductive and frankly stupid. Constipation and diarrhea are both illnesses of the digestive system but we don't conflate them for no good reason.

Infertility is also not just something that means jumping straight to IVF and the state does cover the cost of treating many conditions associated with infertility. My endometriosis was treated by the HSE. Women with miscarriage history can be prescribed free progesterone to help maintain the pregnancy, etc. IVF is expensive and with an average of a 20% success rate and often used by couples who have other issues that should have been treated first. My ovarian endometriosis would have meant IVF would never have worked for me as my body treated embryos as invaders. It will be great if IVF becomes available through the HSE, but lets not pretend that the state's free/subsidised healthcare system isn't actually helping couples conceive already.

iguana

As someone who has experienced difficulty conceiving and has never experienced an unwanted pregnancy I genuinely don't understand your point. Infertility is absolute hell but it's not the same as unwanted pregnancy. Having something growing inside you, making you ill and causing pain, changing your body for good and ending with a person in the world who is your child whether you have to raise them or give them up is a completely and totally different experience to infertility. Just because they both concern reproductive function doesn't make them the same thing or even two sides of the same coin. They aren't. Please don't conflate women's reproductive issues as one thing. It's reductive and frankly stupid. Constipation and diarrhea are both illnesses of the digestive system but we don't conflate them for no good reason.

Infertility is also not just something that means jumping straight to IVF and the state does cover the cost of treating many conditions associated with infertility. My endometriosis was treated by the HSE. Women with miscarriage history can be prescribed free progesterone to help maintain the pregnancy, etc. IVF is expensive and with an average of a 20% success rate and often used by couples who have other issues that should have been treated first. My ovarian endometriosis would have meant IVF would never have worked for me as my body treated embryos as invaders. It will be great if IVF becomes available through the HSE, but lets not pretend that the state's free/subsidised healthcare system isn't actually helping couples conceive already.

Billy86

Igotadose wrote: »

Shame that. State needs to spend less on entitlements.

I was going to sarcastically reply "yeah yeah, but besides that"... I see the person you were replying to had already beaten me to it, just without the sarcasm.

Sofiztikated

Billy86 wrote: »

I was going to sarcastically reply "yeah yeah, but besides that"... I see the person you were replying to had already beaten me to it, just without the sarcasm.

You'll find I didn't reply with anything, with or without sarcasm, as this is my first post on this topic since.

I was just pointing out that Harris had already said about the State helping possibly with IVF treatments, the poster I replied to asked why State didn't.

paw patrol

Annabella1 wrote: »

I see minister Harris is proposing free access to termination for the whole female population
I find it ironic that couples unable to conceive needing ivf face hugh bills and zero state support !

the state is broke or acts like it.
Plenty of hospitals in heap and operations cancelled etc....obligatory mention of the homeless...

but the state find the pennies and cough up for young Mary's mistake during rag week....

priorities?

WinnyThePoo

jesus

pleasant Co.

paw patrol wrote: »

the state is broke or acts like it.
Plenty of hospitals in heap and operations cancelled etc....obligatory mention of the homeless...

but the state find the pennies and cough up for young Mary's mistake during rag week....

priorities?

Surely if that's your way of thinking, you've already realised that young Mary's mistake would have state pennies allocated to it through child benefit regardless. There's literally no monetary issue for you to get worked up about in this musing of yours.

paw patrol

pleasant Co. wrote: »

Surely if that's your way of thinking, you've already realised that young Mary's mistake would have state pennies allocated to it through child benefit regardless. There's literally no monetary issue for you to get worked up about in this musing of yours.

perhaps young mary (and of course her young buck too) could pay for her/their own abortion (if that is her desire to have one) and that would save the day for all ...bar the baby, of course, but I feel that battle has been lost.


And keep state funds for those in need. We could call it something quaint like personal responsibility.

Fighting Tao

paw patrol wrote: »

the state is broke or acts like it.
Plenty of hospitals in heap and operations cancelled etc....obligatory mention of the homeless...

but the state find the pennies and cough up for young Mary's mistake during rag week....

priorities?

I don't think you thought your post through.

lazygal

paw patrol wrote: »

the state is broke or acts like it.
Plenty of hospitals in heap and operations cancelled etc....obligatory mention of the homeless...

but the state find the pennies and cough up for young Mary's mistake during rag week....

priorities?

I've cost the state far more by staying pregnant three times than by having early abortions. I had to have c sections and due to complications extra maternity care appointments.

pleasant Co.

paw patrol wrote: »

perhaps young mary (and of course her young buck too) could pay for her/their own abortion (if that is her desire to have one) and that would save the day for all ...bar the baby, of course, but I feel that battle has been lost.


And keep state funds for those in need. We could call it something quaint like personal responsibility.

Perhaps this hypothetical scenario you've dreamt up could do whatever you imagine, but kindly do not move the goal posts of the discussion I'm having with you.

Your issue was with government funding, if you wish to rebuke my response, above, then by all means go for it.

Billy86

Sofiztikated wrote: »

You'll find I didn't reply with anything, with or without sarcasm, as this is my first post on this topic since.

I was just pointing out that Harris had already said about the State helping possibly with IVF treatments, the poster I replied to asked why State didn't.

Not you - the other poster, Annabella1.

Sofiztikated

Billy86 wrote: »

Not you - the other poster, Annabella1.

My apologies.

I'm a bit testy today, and took it the wrong way.

Billy86

paw patrol wrote: »

perhaps young mary (and of course her young buck too) could pay for her/their own abortion (if that is her desire to have one) and that would save the day for all ...bar the baby, of course, but I feel that battle has been lost.


And keep state funds for those in need. We could call it something quaint like personal responsibility.

Actually, there's a large saving to the taxpayer assuming the procedure doesn't cost an exorbitant amount (which at least according to Marie Stopes it doesn't, €470 - €1,555 in the UK) considering how many unwanted pregnancies - usually from those who can't afford to get to the UK and pay their own, or people with addiction or strong mental health issues - wind up in foster care.

At the moment we are currently spending about €120mn per year (so enough to cover in the neighbourhood of one million abortions; each child can cost anywhere from €18-60k to place) and that's before getting to the likes of respite carers, social services, those needing therapy which racks up a big cost quickly, further medical needs, and so on and so on. Relieving some of this financial burden will if anything, see us with more money to give to those in need than if we were to not allow it.

The economic argument against allowing abortion wasn't worth making during the referendum, and it's not worth making now.

Sofiztikated

Billy86 wrote: »

The economic argument against allowing abortion wasn't worth making during the referendum, and it's not worth making now.

The ones that make that argument think they are 2 separate groups, with no overlap. That there's going to be hapes of young want having babies to milk the system, and others having hapes of abortions to milk the system.

Guy:Incognito

paw patrol wrote: »

perhaps young mary (and of course her young buck too) could pay for her/their own abortion (if that is her desire to have one) and that would save the day for all ...bar the baby, of course, but I feel that battle has been lost.


And keep state funds for those in need. We could call it something quaint like personal responsibility.

Personal responsibility? Strange that a certain poster is liking your post but over on another thread they're also liking all the posts of someone going against everyone advocating personal responsibility...........


On a completely unrelated and off topic note I was just musing on the way home while looking out the car window how some people just like to be a cnut or just act like one. Lots of them on the road there was.

spookwoman

paw patrol wrote: »

the state is broke or acts like it.
Plenty of hospitals in heap and operations cancelled etc....obligatory mention of the homeless...

but the state find the pennies and cough up for young Mary's mistake during rag week....

priorities?

Most abortion are just taking a pill
Misoprostol is about 3 euro per tablet, now look at how much it will cost if "mary" keeps the baby, there is the medical costs, child allowance, possible other fees if mary is living in poverty. There's education dental care, etc. What if Mary decides to give it up, it will still cost more.

Bannasidhe

Annabella1 wrote: »

I see minister Harris is proposing free access to termination for the whole female population
I find it ironic that couples unable to conceive needing ivf face hugh bills and zero state support !

I used to find it ironic back in the 80s how the boats to England carried women and girls who had crises pregnancies while living in a country that banned contraception and abortion and women who were pregnant and afraid that their wanted children would be taken off them while they themselves would be incarcerated in a 'home' and forced to work for no pay.

Funny old world isn't it.

Yourself and Minister Harris need not worry about me requiring a free termination. Menopause has put me on the zero cost list - along with a lot of the rest of the female population.

Neyite

Annabella1 wrote: »

A vague maybe promise for 2019
Why isn’t the state equally supportive for those who want a pregnancy

They are.


I had umpteen hospital appointments when trying to get pregnant - all on the public system and free. I had 2 HSG X-rays, countless scans, a referral to an endocrine consultant, and prescriptions of fertility drugs given to me -capped at the €144 per month as the cost of them run into thousands and that extra was picked up by the state.


Many infertility issues are actually gynaecological issues so are covered under the public system. There is a point where a couple need to go to a private clinic to continue their conception journey, but the public system can do a lot of the diagnostics before they need to pay.

gctest50

paw patrol wrote: »

the state is broke or acts like it.
Plenty of hospitals in heap and operations cancelled etc....obligatory mention of the homeless...

but the state find the pennies and cough up for young Mary's mistake during rag week....

priorities?

paw patrol wrote: »

Plenty of hospitals in heap and

That's because this sort of thing goes on in all shapes and forms :

Using a machine past it's end of life - it'll end up costing multiples of the replacement cost

"The echocardiography unit, as you know, has an end of life certificate from March 2016.

In the latest email, Dr Thomas cites one case of discrepancy where he says the machine in question showed the presence of aortic stenosis (valve disease problem) but missed it in a repeat study. A clarification on a new machine confirmed aortic stenosis.


In a series of older emails from May 30, 2016, to May 2, 2017, the consultant cardiologist asked for replacement machine saying that the continued use of the machine was "morally unethical".


https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/hse-say-no-reason-to-recall-patients-despite-consultants-concerns-over-obsolete-ecg-machine-871862.html

The anti-choice scum just have the hump because shocked they failed to keep the place in the dark ages

Loafing Oaf

http://www.thejournal.ie/peter-fitzpatrick-resigns-4263614-Oct2018/

Fine Gael TD Peter Fitzpatrick resigns from the party over 'the old abortion', as Declan Lynch calls it. Presumably he would otherwise have defied the whip over the abortion legislation and been expelled from the party.

Don't see too many more in FG or FF following his lead...

amcalester

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

http://www.thejournal.ie/peter-fitzpatrick-resigns-4263614-Oct2018/

Fine Gael TD Peter Fitzpatrick resigns from the party over 'the old abortion', as Declan Lynch calls it. Presumably he would otherwise have defied the whip over the abortion legislation and been expelled from the party.

Don't see too many more in FG or FF following his lead...

That was more about getting re-elected than anything else. The selection convention took place in the last few weeks and even though he said he wasn't interested in running again, he said the same before GE16 but changed his mind.

I don't think many in the party were too happy about that.

ELM327

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

http://www.thejournal.ie/peter-fitzpatrick-resigns-4263614-Oct2018/

Fine Gael TD Peter Fitzpatrick resigns from the party over 'the old abortion', as Declan Lynch calls it. Presumably he would otherwise have defied the whip over the abortion legislation and been expelled from the party.

Don't see too many more in FG or FF following his lead...

Interestingly that puts the government + Independent Alliance at 55 votes, with 57 needed to outvote the rest in a FF abstention.


That could make the budget, not to mention the abortion bill very difficult to pass.Can't see FF as a party supporting it. Some of the independents like halligan may vote against. What happens then, in a ridiculous situation when the government of the day can not enact legislation to reflect the will of the people as polled? GE?

Loafing Oaf

ELM327 wrote: »

Interestingly that puts the government + Independent Alliance at 55 votes, with 57 needed to outvote the rest in a FF abstention.


That could make the budget, not to mention the abortion bill very difficult to pass.

No risk to the abortion bill;the vast majority of TDs are committed to supporting it.

ELM327

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

No risk to the abortion bill;the vast majority of TDs are committed to supporting it.

Playing devil's advocate - In the event of a likely FF abstention (per confidence + supply agreement), do they have 57 confirmed supporters though?

Loafing Oaf

ELM327 wrote: »

Playing devil's advocate - In the event of a likely FF abstention (per confidence + supply agreement), do they have 57 confirmed supporters though?

Well FF have a free vote and AFAIK most of those who have declared their intentions have said they will vote yes. But even if you leave them aside, nearly every other TD in the Dail, bar a handful of Healy Rea types, is committed to supporting the legislation.

Hotblack Desiato

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

Don't see too many more in FG or FF following his lead...

FF have a free vote. Don't see anyone else in FG lining up to "do a Renua".