Exit poll: The post referendum thread. No electioneering.

Hotblack Desiato

Why on earth would the government want to do that?

Loafing Oaf

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Why on earth would the government want to do that?

As long as it’s something trivial, effectively meaningless. Ensure support for the legislation across all the main parties is overwhelming, make opponents look like s handful of malcontents.

alaimacerc

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Sean Canney, Minister of State, voted against a Government bill - a sacking offence surely?

Doubtless we'll now discover he's just a Confidence and Supply Junior, or something along those lines.

Not sure it's in the programme for government, and of course no party whip. Pretty arsey behaviour, all the same.

alaimacerc

Igotadose wrote: »

Sorry, what's the McDowell Thought act?

The Michael McDowell stroke in coalition with FF, to try to embed his own bill in the constitution in its entirety. I was attempting a humorous comparison between that and the likes of "Xi Jinping Thought on Socialism with Chinese Characteristics". (i.e., constitution now says "I'm in charge, do what I say.")

Hotblack Desiato

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

As long as it’s something trivial, effectively meaningless. Ensure support for the legislation across all the main parties is overwhelming, make opponents look like s handful of malcontents.

They are a handful of malcontents.

It suits FG to have FF split on an issue like this especially one with overwhelming public support and which has no prospect of bringing down the government. SF and the small left parties will support the bill provided it is not watered down.

Loafing Oaf

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

They are a handful of malcontents.

It suits FG to have FF split on an issue like this especially one with overwhelming public support and which has no prospect of bringing down the government. SF and the small left parties will support the bill provided it is not watered down.

i'm looking at the broader picture of building a pro-choice consensus in society, encouraging pro-lifers to give up the ghost, not leaving them with the lingering hope that there is a significant cohort within FF on their side.

Anyway, this is all academic; I'm pretty sure most/all of those abstaining FFers will end up voting for the final legislation; they just want to be seen to express their DEEP CONCERN at this stage of proceedings.

ohnonotgmail

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

i'm looking at the broader picture of building a pro-choice consensus in society, encouraging pro-lifers to give up the ghost, not leaving them with the lingering hope that there is a significant cohort within FF on their side.

Anyway, this is all academic; I'm pretty sure most/all of those abstaining FFers will end up voting for the final legislation; they just want to be seen to express their DEEP CONCERN at this stage of proceedings.

We already have a pro-choice consensus. Some pro-lifers will never give up the ghost. No sense in trying to placate them.

Loafing Oaf

https://www.rte.ie/news/politics/2018/1101/1007991-td-suspension/

Peadar Toibin sentenced to another six months on the naughty step. Surprised it wasn't longer for a second offence.

Igotadose

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

https://www.rte.ie/news/politics/2018/1101/1007991-td-suspension/

Peadar Toibin sentenced to another six months on the naughty step. Surprised it wasn't longer for a second offence.

He's still in the Dail, though. Too bad he wasn't removed.

And, as much as I want him gone from the Dail, I don't want another election anytime before the first round of legislation is law.

Still, that's another conscienceless wanker gone. Hopefully more to follow.

Loafing Oaf

Igotadose wrote: »

He's still in the Dail, though. Too bad he wasn't removed.

And, as much as I want him gone from the Dail, I don't want another election anytime before the first round of legislation is law.

Still, that's another conscienceless wanker gone. Hopefully more to follow.

Is he 'gone' though? I don't think there will be an election in the next six months, and if he sees out his suspension presumably he's back in the party and all is forgiven and forgotten.

Hotblack Desiato

Third offence is a kneecapping though.

pleas advice

Igotadose wrote: »

Still, that's another conscienceless wanker gone. Hopefully more to follow.

or, you know, maybe the exact opposite?

Loafing Oaf

So rather than a list of GPs opting in or opting out of abortion services,

A new HSE helpline will provide women seeking terminations with the names of doctors in their locality who provide abortion services.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/hse-to-help-women-find-doctors-who-provide-abortion-services-883388.html

Looks like Simon Harris or whoever is masterminding this process has it all figured out.

Igotadose

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

So rather than a list of GPs opting in or opting out of abortion services,

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/hse-to-help-women-find-doctors-who-provide-abortion-services-883388.html

Looks like Simon Harris or whoever is masterminding this process has it all figured out.

180 amendments. Is that an unusually high amount for legislation in Ireland? One hopes the 'noise' amendments from the anti-women types can be simply rejected (like the mandatory ultrasounds and funeral garbage).

Hopefully the 3 day waiting period will be dropped, seems like that's a possibility.

Will it be possible to, retroactively, determine who in the Dail proposed which amendment? Is that kind of information available?

eviltwin

Igotadose wrote: »

180 amendments. Is that an unusually high amount for legislation in Ireland? One hopes the 'noise' amendments from the anti-women types can be simply rejected (like the mandatory ultrasounds and funeral garbage).

Hopefully the 3 day waiting period will be dropped, seems like that's a possibility.

Will it be possible to, retroactively, determine who in the Dail proposed which amendment? Is that kind of information available?

It's a load of time wasting guff. There is no need for anything relating to scans or heartbeats to be written into the legislation, it can just be at the request of the woman. It's not written into UK law and they offer such services.

Personally I believe their inclusion is to bring us down a US style law where the opportunity to avail of such services soon becomes mandatory.

You can't even hear a heartbeat until around the 8 week point, hopefully women in need of abortion would be able to access one long before this point.

Igotadose

eviltwin wrote: »

It's a load of time wasting guff. There is no need for anything relating to scans or heartbeats to be written into the legislation, it can just be at the request of the woman. It's not written into UK law and they offer such services.

Personally I believe their inclusion is to bring us down a US style law where the opportunity to avail of such services soon becomes mandatory.

You can't even hear a heartbeat until around the 8 week point, hopefully women in need of abortion would be able to access one long before this point.

100% agree. My interest is in who proposed those amendments, important to vote those **** out in the next GE.

I also have hope that the 3 day waiting period is minimized somehow, so that it's technically in the legislation but realistically can be circumvented.

uptherebels

Is there a list of the proposed amendments anywhere?

Hotblack Desiato

Igotadose wrote: »

180 amendments. Is that an unusually high amount for legislation in Ireland?

Probably.
According to the IT today, dozens of them are changing each reference in the bill to "pregnant person" to "person of any sex who is pregnant" :rolleyes: I expect them to all be dealt with together and dismissed summarily.

One hopes the 'noise' amendments from the anti-women types can be simply rejected (like the mandatory ultrasounds and funeral garbage).

IIRC if the govt moves to dismiss an amendment once it's been read, it won't proceed to debate unless 10 TDs are in favour.

Hopefully the 3 day waiting period will be dropped, seems like that's a possibility.

Hopefully, especially as the GPs are already complaining and they'll not want a second appointment which isn't medically necessary.

Will it be possible to, retroactively, determine who in the Dail proposed which amendment? Is that kind of information available?

Yes it'll (after a few days probably) be in the Dail debate record on https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/find/


The helpline proposal seems like a good and pragmatic solution and should in practice eliminate the need for referral.

Loafing Oaf

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/simon-harris-defends-u-turn-on-abortion-pqw22mjqf

Bill slowly making its away through the Dail, and amendments being given the old heave ho as it does so.

This one seemed particularly idiotic, if those proposing it accepted the basic principle of abortion 'without restriction' in the first 12 weeks.

Politicians rejected a number of amendments from anti-abortion TDs, including a proposal to ban abortion on grounds of race, sex or disability up to 12 weeks. Under the bill, abortion would not be legal on such grounds but a woman would have the right to access an abortion up to 12 weeks with no reason required.

Mr Harris said he had spoken to doctors who advised that accepting the amendment would have made a law legalising abortion up to 12 weeks “inoperable” because it would mean doctors would have to know a woman’s thoughts and her reasons.

Did you really need to 'speak to doctors' to work that one out Simo?

Igotadose

Looks like there's a meeting of GP's coming up to discuss the upcoming implementation of the repeal. https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2018/1202/1014612-gps-meeting-about-concerns-over-abortion-services/

Simon Harris is quoted as saying the law on conscientious objection hasn't changed. Anyone know what, exactly, the state of this is? I didn't think it was resolved at all.

Igotadose

And... seems like some walked out on the meeting. Would love to know who walked out and what their 'motions' were.

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2018/1202/1014612-gps-meeting-about-concerns-over-abortion-services/

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Igotadose wrote: »

And... seems like some walked out on the meeting. Would love to know who walked out and what their 'motions' were.

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2018/1202/1014612-gps-meeting-about-concerns-over-abortion-services/

Well, the article says it’s mostly anti-abortion doctors.

The article also says that abortion will be available up to nine weeks. Was that what was said in the draft legislation? I thought it was twelve weeks.

Loafing Oaf

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Well, the article says it’s mostly anti-abortion doctors.

The article also says that abortion will be available up to nine weeks. Was that what was said in the draft legislation? I thought it was twelve weeks.

AFAIK GPs will be providing medical abortion up to nine weeks. Later than that women will be referred to hospitals.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

I don’t know about any other yes voters, but I never expected all doctors to provide the service and I don’t think they should have to if they don’t want. A good smattering of GPs giving the service around each county will be enough.

Loafing Oaf

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

I don’t know about any other yes voters, but I never expected all doctors to provide the service and I don’t think they should have to if they don’t want. A good smattering of GPs giving the service around each county will be enough.

Apparently some 300 GPs have signed up to provide the service, which should be more than enough.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

Apparently some 300 GPs have signed up to provide the service, which should be more than enough.

I think so, yes. Should be more than enough.

nice_guy80

A lot of them who walked out appear to be retired GPs

foreverandever

A lot of Gps who went to that meeting are pro choice but there’s issues that need to be addressed

1. No huge proof that GP led abortion services are the best
2. No access to ultrasound for dating scans
3. Why isn’t contraception free for every woman first
4. Why are they being paid more to provide abortion services rather than maternity care to women
5. GPs are over subscribed at the moment, it is going to be extremely difficult to properly provide women with the counselling and treatment they deserve for abortion services

Yes a lot of the doctors who walked out were pro life but there are so many issues that need to be addressed the government are just glossing over. Women in Ireland have been treated so badly but rushing into a poorly planned service is not the answer

Igotadose

foreverandever wrote: »

A lot of Gps who went to that meeting are pro choice but there’s issues that need to be addressed

1. No huge proof that GP led abortion services are the best
2. No access to ultrasound for dating scans
3. Why isn’t contraception free for every woman first
4. Why are they being paid more to provide abortion services rather than maternity care to women
5. GPs are over subscribed at the moment, it is going to be extremely difficult to properly provide women with the counselling and treatment they deserve for abortion services

Yes a lot of the doctors who walked out were pro life but there are so many issues that need to be addressed the government are just glossing over. Women in Ireland have been treated so badly but rushing into a poorly planned service is not the answer

Uhh... so your item #3 is irrelevant - what does it matter whether contraception's free or not? Other than as an obvious delaying tactic. Is it free anywhere in the world that provides abortion?
Item #4, again, delaying tactic and irrelevant

Item #5: see item #4. They'll be paid. GP's oversubscribed, would love to see that data.

Item #6: Why does that matter? And what alternative that implements the will of the public by January have you got instead? This was all discussed in the citizens assembly as far as I recall.

As for the ultrasound, why is that necessary? Was it a provision of the law? If it is, it needs to be resolved. If not, it doesn't.

Watching a couple interviews with the usual anti-choice doctor suspects (O'Regan, Fuller, McGuire), it's just more lies and delay. I actually think looking at the images online that way fewer than 50 doctors left, and the ones talking to the media haven't gotten over the referendum result.

Further, it's very important to know which doctors do and don't provide abortion services. I like the helpline, but a list of names maintained in public (probably anonymously since the libel laws in Ireland are so out of control) would be best.

foreverandever

Igotadose wrote: »

Uhh... so your item #3 is irrelevant - what does it matter whether contraception's free or not? Other than as an obvious delaying tactic. Is it free anywhere in the world that provides abortion?
Item #4, again, delaying tactic and irrelevant

Item #5: see item #4. They'll be paid. GP's oversubscribed, would love to see that data.

Item #6: Why does that matter? And what alternative that implements the will of the public by January have you got instead? This was all discussed in the citizens assembly as far as I recall.

As for the ultrasound, why is that necessary? Was it a provision of the law? If it is, it needs to be resolved. If not, it doesn't.

Watching a couple interviews with the usual anti-choice doctor suspects (O'Regan, Fuller, McGuire), it's just more lies and delay. I actually think looking at the images online that way fewer than 50 doctors left, and the ones talking to the media haven't gotten over the referendum result.

Further, it's very important to know which doctors do and don't provide abortion services. I like the helpline, but a list of names maintained in public (probably anonymously since the libel laws in Ireland are so out of control) would be best.

Free contraception- because one of the most important things for post abortion care is contraception, that’s not been addressed.

Yes GPs are being paid- but why are they paid more to provide an abortion service than health care to a pregnant woman and baby

If women aren’t sure about their dates then they need a scan as the pills are only effective up to a certain number of weeks gestation. Some of the waiting lists for ultrasounds are up to a year in some counties

Most GPs have patients who have had abortions, Women who may never told their families or partners. The vast majority of GPs support the services but not what the government is offering at the moment, that’s the issue