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Exit poll: The post referendum thread. No electioneering.

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    #6512
    amcalester
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,121 ✭✭✭amcalester


    ELM327 wrote: »
    Playing devil's advocate - In the event of a likely FF abstention (per confidence + supply agreement), do they have 57 confirmed supporters though?

    Confidence and Supply is in relation to Finance Bills and votes of No confidence and perhaps some other specifically mentioned bills, it's not the default position that FF will abstain on all votes.


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    #6513
    Loafing Oaf
    Registered Users Posts: 16,084 ✭✭✭✭Loafing Oaf


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    FF have a free vote.

    I know, but I don't think there will be too many of them actually voting against the legislation, when push comes to shove, although there could be a fair few abstentions.
    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/many-anti-repeal-tds-now-set-to-back-abortion-legislation-1.3510570
    Fianna Fáil TDs James Browne, John Brassil, John McGuinness, Seán Fleming, Willie O’Dea, Charlie McConalogue, Eamon Scanlon, Darragh O’Brien, Declan Breathnach, Marc MacSharry and Jackie Cahill all indicated they would now support the legislation.


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    #6514
    Loafing Oaf
    Registered Users Posts: 16,084 ✭✭✭✭Loafing Oaf


    So the abortion bill has been 'introduced' in the Dail.
    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/dail-set-to-debate-abortion-legislation-proposals-37384973.html

    Anyone know if the whole thing will be done and dusted today?


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    #6515
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,165 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    No chance.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #6516
    volchitsa
    Registered Users Posts: 7,034 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    Loafing Oaf wrote: »
    I know, but I don't think there will be too many of them actually voting against the legislation, when push comes to shove, although there could be a fair few abstentions.
    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/many-anti-repeal-tds-now-set-to-back-abortion-legislation-1.3510570

    Apols if I've just missed it, but has anyone mentioned Harris' weasely behaviour yet?

    After having attended the March for Choice last week he has now introduced a whole bunch of obstacles and restrictions in his bill :

    He has for example tightened up the right to abortion from 'harm to the woman' to 'serious harm to the woman', extended criminalization, actually widened 'conscientious objection' to potentially include institutions, omitted legislation for safe zones around hospitals and surgeries.

    Harris said he would legislate based on the recommendations from the Citizens' Assembly - but the actual legislation he's proposing is far more restrictive than both the Citizens Assembly report and the Oireachtas report.

    This is beginning to remind me of the NMH and St Vincent's debacle. You can't take your eyes off these fkers for an instant. :mad:


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    #6517
    Loafing Oaf
    Registered Users Posts: 16,084 ✭✭✭✭Loafing Oaf


    volchitsa wrote: »
    omitted legislation for safe zones around hospitals and surgeries.

    I think this is intended to be separate legislation.

    Also, in fairness to the minister, he said this legislation would be based on the draft legislation which was published before the referendum. I know the 'serious harm' bit, for instance, was in that. I don't think he can reasonably be criticised unless he is making significant changes from those proposals.


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    #6518
    volchitsa
    Registered Users Posts: 7,034 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    Assuming that separate legislation ever actually happens, that still leaves a lot of extra obstacles and restrictions that the CA and the Dáil committee did not advocate.

    What the hell is Harris playing at? Just put forward the bill as it was proposed before the referendum!


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    #6519
    bloodless_coup
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,480 ✭✭✭bloodless_coup


    Mattie McGrath, the only man of integrity in the Dail.


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    #6520
    Wrongway1985
    Registered Users Posts: 6,350 ✭✭✭Wrongway1985


    doylefe wrote: »
    Mattie McGrath, the only man of integrity in the Dail.

    Sure :D:D:D


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    #6521
    Pherekydes
    Registered Users Posts: 16,119 ✭✭✭✭Pherekydes


    doylefe wrote: »
    Mattie McGrath, the only man of integrity in the Dail.

    His first loyalty is to the Vatican.

    There's a word for that...


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    #6522
    Fighting Tao
    Registered Users Posts: 6,483 ✭✭✭Fighting Tao


    doylefe wrote: »
    Mattie McGrath, the only man of integrity in the Dail.

    When’s your first stand up show?


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    #6523
    uptherebels
    Registered Users Posts: 1,586 ✭✭✭uptherebels


    doylefe wrote: »
    Mattie McGrath, the only man of integrity in the Dail.

    We will see if his integrity stretches to supporting the democratic will of the Irish people


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    #6524
    uptherebels
    Registered Users Posts: 1,586 ✭✭✭uptherebels


    Pherekydes wrote: »
    His first loyalty is to the Vatican.

    There's a word for that...

    Sad?
    Indoctrinated?


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    #6525
    bloodless_coup
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,480 ✭✭✭bloodless_coup


    uptherebels wrote: »
    We will see if his integrity stretches to supporting the democratic will of the Irish people

    I suppose you have no issue with the likes of Ruth Coppinger pushing for massively more liberal legislation than what was presented to the people when they voted.


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    #6526
    endacl
    Registered Users Posts: 22,242 ✭✭✭✭endacl


    doylefe wrote: »
    I suppose you have no issue with the likes of Ruth Coppinger pushing for massively more liberal legislation than what was presented to the people when they voted.

    I wouldn't.


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    #6527
    Wrongway1985
    Registered Users Posts: 6,350 ✭✭✭Wrongway1985


    doylefe wrote: »
    I suppose you have no issue with the likes of Ruth Coppinger pushing for massively more liberal legislation than what was presented to the people when they voted.

    We were voting on access to abortion services we don't vote on legislation silly.

    So Ruth Coppinger has integrity too for being upfront just as Mattie had, is what your saying?


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    #6528
    uptherebels
    Registered Users Posts: 1,586 ✭✭✭uptherebels


    doylefe wrote: »
    I suppose you have no issue with the likes of Ruth Coppinger pushing for massively more liberal legislation than what was presented to the people when they voted.

    I do have issue with that, the legislation should represent what the people were shown before voting, no changes either way.

    Just to add that I personally don't agree with the 3 day waiting period.


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    #6529
    Pherekydes
    Registered Users Posts: 16,119 ✭✭✭✭Pherekydes


    uptherebels wrote: »
    Sad?
    Indoctrinated?

    Treasonous?


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    #6530
    alaimacerc
    Registered Users Posts: 7,224 ✭✭✭alaimacerc


    doylefe wrote: »
    I suppose you have no issue with the likes of Ruth Coppinger pushing for massively more liberal legislation than what was presented to the people when they voted.

    What do you mean by "pushing for", exactly? Are you suggesting that a TD should vote other than what was in their manifesto, and what they campaigned on?

    If she -- or anyone else -- were to filibuster, obstruct, or otherwise make a holy show of enactment of legislation in line with the published heads of bill, I'd certainly "have an issue" with that.


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    #6531
    alaimacerc
    Registered Users Posts: 7,224 ✭✭✭alaimacerc


    Sofiztikated wrote: »
    The ones that make that argument think they are 2 separate groups, with no overlap. That there's going to be hapes of young want having babies to milk the system, and others having hapes of abortions to milk the system.

    It's probably a quantum mechanical phenomenon, not unlike Schrödinger's Immigrant.


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    #6532
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,165 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    uptherebels wrote: »
    I do have issue with that, the legislation should represent what the people were shown before voting, no changes either way.

    Just to add that I personally don't agree with the 3 day waiting period.

    But the draft legislation just reflected what the Dail committee wanted. It doesn't necessarily reflect what the Dail wants or what the people want.

    Also if you take that line, should any attempt to amend the legislation in the future have a referendum first?

    We decided in the referendum to allow the Dail to legislate, and not set down conditions on what the Dail can do - quite the opposite.

    If a Dail majority supports any change to the draft legislation, then so be it.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #6533
    alaimacerc
    Registered Users Posts: 7,224 ✭✭✭alaimacerc


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    Also if you take that line, should any attempt to amend the legislation in the future have a referendum first?

    I'm getting flashbacks to the FF/PD "solution" to this: embed the "McDowell Thought" Act in the constitution itself.

    Obviously that wouldn't be required, unless the Dáil was especially keen on some "advisory referendum" way of ducking their own direct responsibility. But I'd expect that future change be put before the country in party manifestos. Which is of course going to be in fairly broad-strokes terms, not "here's every comma of the new bill".


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    #6534
    Igotadose
    Registered Users Posts: 13,065 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    alaimacerc wrote: »
    I'm getting flashbacks to the FF/PD "solution" to this: embed the "McDowell Thought" Act in the constitution itself.

    Sorry, what's the McDowell Thought act?


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    #6535
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    uptherebels wrote: »
    I do have issue with that, the legislation should represent what the people were shown before voting, no changes either way.
    That's not realistic, to be fair. Any legislation presented to the people beforehand is a draft, it's hasn't be rigorously debated nor examined. And it can't be until the referendum on which it's dependent, has been carried.

    So there will always be revisions necessary afterwards. I agree in principle that a deliberate bait-and-switch is a problem. But rigidly sticking to the draft text is also a problem. Legislators should always be prepared to alter legislation where any relevant data or information indicates that the text as drafted is flawed.


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    #6536
    Loafing Oaf
    Registered Users Posts: 16,084 ✭✭✭✭Loafing Oaf


    Loafing Oaf wrote: »
    Well FF have a free vote and AFAIK most of those who have declared their intentions have said they will vote yes. But even if you leave them aside, nearly every other TD in the Dail, bar a handful of Healy Rea types, is committed to supporting the legislation.

    What did I tell y'all?:P

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/abortion-bill-passes-to-next-stage-by-102-votes-to-12-with-seven-abstentions-1.3673079
    the second stage of the legislation was passed by 102 votes to 12 with seven abstentions and it now goes to committee stage.

    Eleven men and one woman voted against the legislation. Two Fianna Fáil TDs, Eamon O Cuív and Marc MacSharry voted against the Bill


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    #6537
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,165 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Sean Canney, Minister of State, voted against a Government bill - a sacking offence surely?

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #6538
    ArmaniJeanss
    Registered Users Posts: 13,325 ✭✭✭✭ArmaniJeanss


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    Sean Canney, Minister of State, voted against a Government bill - a sacking offence surely?

    He's an independent isn't he, so isn't part of any whip.
    Just has to vote with the government on budgets and conf motions etc.


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    #6539
    Loafing Oaf
    Registered Users Posts: 16,084 ✭✭✭✭Loafing Oaf


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    Sean Canney, Minister of State, voted against a Government bill - a sacking offence surely?

    Not sure. I'm wondering if Peadar Toibin's second strike on this issue merits expulsion from SF.


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    #6540
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,165 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    ArmaniJeanss wrote: »
    He's an independent isn't he, so isn't part of any whip.
    Just has to vote with the government on budgets and conf motions etc.

    He's not just a backbench independent who supports the government, though, that's the point. He holds a government office.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #6541
    Loafing Oaf
    Registered Users Posts: 16,084 ✭✭✭✭Loafing Oaf


    I wonder will some figleaf amendment to the bill be accepted that will enable those abstaining FF TDs to say their concerns have been addressed and the legislation was now fine and dandy...


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