Exit poll: The post referendum thread. No electioneering.

nice_guy80

foreverandever wrote: »

Igotadose wrote: »

Uhh... so your item #3 is irrelevant - what does it matter whether contraception's free or not? Other than as an obvious delaying tactic. Is it free anywhere in the world that provides abortion?
Item #4, again, delaying tactic and irrelevant

Item #5: see item #4. They'll be paid. GP's oversubscribed, would love to see that data.

Item #6: Why does that matter? And what alternative that implements the will of the public by January have you got instead? This was all discussed in the citizens assembly as far as I recall.

As for the ultrasound, why is that necessary? Was it a provision of the law? If it is, it needs to be resolved. If not, it doesn't.

Watching a couple interviews with the usual anti-choice doctor suspects (O'Regan, Fuller, McGuire), it's just more lies and delay. I actually think looking at the images online that way fewer than 50 doctors left, and the ones talking to the media haven't gotten over the referendum result.

Further, it's very important to know which doctors do and don't provide abortion services. I like the helpline, but a list of names maintained in public (probably anonymously since the libel laws in Ireland are so out of control) would be best.

Free contraception- because one of the most important things for post abortion care is contraception, that’s not been addressed.

Yes GPs are being paid- but why are they paid more to provide an abortion service than health care to a pregnant woman and baby

If women aren’t sure about their dates then they need a scan as the pills are only effective up to a certain number of weeks gestation. Some of the waiting lists for ultrasounds are up to a year in some counties

Most GPs have patients who have had abortions, Women who may never told their families or partners. The vast majority of GPs support the services but not what the government is offering at the moment, that’s the issue

Maybe the loveboth crowd can start campaigning for all that

spookwoman

foreverandever wrote: »

Free contraception- because one of the most important things for post abortion care is contraception, that’s not been addressed.

You do know contraception does fail and it's probably why many of these women are seeking abortions.

foreverandever wrote: »

Yes GPs are being paid- but why are they paid more to provide an abortion service than health care to a pregnant woman and baby

They get paid by either the patient or the state even when someone visits them for a dose of the clap. Where does it say they will get paid more for this service because as it is many doctors charge €60 just to see the for a cough and €25 for a repeat prescription.

foreverandever wrote: »

If women aren’t sure about their dates then they need a scan as the pills are only effective up to a certain number of weeks gestation. Some of the waiting lists for ultrasounds are up to a year in some counties

Most women will take a pregnancy test as soon as they miss their period and pregnancy tests are pretty accurate even with early dating. I dont know they may provide ultrasound machines in some practices and I do know some already have em around here

foreverandever wrote: »

Most GPs have patients who have had abortions, Women who may never told their families or partners. The vast majority of GPs support the services but not what the government is offering at the moment, that’s the issue

Most of the time the doctor will be just giving out 2 tablets and sending them on their way. If there are problems which is rare then you would go to the hospital. a week or so later then they would get a followup to see of it was a success. If its later then yes a referral to the hospital or whatever for I think its an Aspiration abortion. But most of the time this will be like going into the chemist and getting the morning after pill. They say about 3 women a day travel to the uk so that is not going to put any pressure on doctors.

Geuze

spookwoman wrote: »

They get paid by either the patient or the state even when someone visits them for a dose of the clap. Where does it say they will get paid more for this service because as it is many doctors charge €60 just to see the for a cough and €25 for a repeat prescription.

They will get 450 for this service.

It seems they get less for maternity.

volchitsa

Geuze wrote: »

They will get 450 for this service.

It seems they get less for maternity.

GPs don't deliver babies any more, but going by costs in places that charge to the patient, like the US, I very much doubt an obstetrician gets less than 450€ for attending a birth. They get thousands in America.

Calina

foreverandever wrote: »

A lot of Gps who went to that meeting are pro choice but there’s issues that need to be addressed

1. No huge proof that GP led abortion services are the best
2. No access to ultrasound for dating scans
3. Why isn’t contraception free for every woman first
4. Why are they being paid more to provide abortion services rather than maternity care to women
5. GPs are over subscribed at the moment, it is going to be extremely difficult to properly provide women with the counselling and treatment they deserve for abortion services

Yes a lot of the doctors who walked out were pro life but there are so many issues that need to be addressed the government are just glossing over. Women in Ireland have been treated so badly but rushing into a poorly planned service is not the answer

Better to provide no service and condemn them to the boat and planes for another while yet.

Your talking points are pure prevention of abortion talking points.

foreverandever

Calina wrote: »

Better to provide no service and condemn them to the boat and planes for another while yet.

Your talking points are pure prevention of abortion talking points.

Nope women have waited so long for this, providing a sub standard ill thought out service is not the answer and disrespectful.

nice_guy80

foreverandever wrote: »

Calina wrote: »

Better to provide no service and condemn them to the boat and planes for another while yet.

Your talking points are pure prevention of abortion talking points.

Nope women have waited so long for this, providing a sub standard ill thought out service is not the answer and disrespectful.

What's the alternative?

foreverandever

nice_guy80 wrote: »

What's the alternative?

Proper centres where they have access to ultrasounds, counsellors, contraception and follow up care. Like a well woman’s clinic. Similar to what’s in other countries. Not run by pro-life/people with alternative motives. They don’t need one in every town but easy access to them for women.

Igotadose

More delaying tactics. Some org of 300-odd nurses and midwives are complaining about not having their fifis met, err, not being consulted. Overall there are in excess of 65,000 nurses and midwives. So, 300-odd ones to dictate policy to the rest:https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/pro-life-midwives-and-nurses-gather-signatures-amid-abortion-legislation-fears-888307.html

In this article, at least, it does whip on the Dail some for focusing on other things (like a FF motion to promote cycling, ffs), rather than completing the legislation: https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/abortion-services-crisis-as-gps-walk-out-889424.html

It really is delaying tactics up and down by the hatebothers. Note that the number of dr's that walked out from the EGM keeps shrinking, the article now says 'dozens' which is what I count in the picture (of course, that's just a picture.)

Guy:Incognito

foreverandever wrote: »

Proper centres where they have access to ultrasounds, counsellors, contraception and follow up care. Like a well woman’s clinic. Similar to what’s in other countries. Not run by pro-life/people with alternative motives. They don’t need one in every town but easy access to them for women.

Somewhere handy for the protestors to focus on you mean?

To be fair, there probably aren't enough of them to spread around all the GPs surgerys in the country to set up their prayer stands in front of.


Was one of the points of the no side not that they reckoned the UK system would be a money making thing for "big abortion"?. The gp system seems like a good way to go. Unless it's just a tactic to delay as long as possible...........

seamus

foreverandever wrote: »

1. No huge proof that GP led abortion services are the best

No "huge proof" that they're not. Since abortion is a primary care service, it makes sense to have primary care providers do it.

If it turns out later on that it's better handled by specialised services, then we can change.

2. No access to ultrasound for dating scans

So? Other dating methods are good enough.

3. Why isn’t contraception free for every woman first

Why "first"? Why not "as well"? The lack of free contraception does not in any way hinder the introduction of abortion services.

4. Why are they being paid more to provide abortion services rather than maternity care to women

The services that GPs provide for maternity care are basically checking blood pressure and talking to the patient. Anything remotely complicated and the patient gets an ambulance to the nearest hospital. Abortion services require more work.

Any road, have you got a citation for this claim?

Loafing Oaf

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Somewhere handy for the protestors to focus on you mean?

To be fair, there probably aren't enough of them to spread around all the GPs surgerys in the country to set up their prayer stands in front of.

Maybe getting too Machiavellian here, but I suspect wrongfooting protestors may have been the main reason for going with a GP-led service. And a year or two down the road we may see a switch to one based around family planning clinics, but by the stage the existence of an abortion service will be a fait accompli, and it will be very hard to build a head of steam around protests.

ohnonotgmail

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

Maybe getting too Machiavellian here, but I suspect wrongfooting protestors may have been the main reason for going with a GP-led service. And a year or two down the road we may see a switch to one based around family planning clinics, but by the stage the existence of an abortion service will be a fait accompli, and it will be very hard to build a head of steam around protests.

As much as i would like to believe that is true i dont think it is. They still hold protests outside Planned Parenthood in the states. Sometimes violently. There were some of those american nutters over here during the referendum campaign. Expect them to return if we opened abortion clinics.

Guy:Incognito

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

As much as i would like to believe that is true i dont think it is. They still hold protests outside Planned Parenthood in the states. Sometimes violently. There were some of those american nutters over here during the referendum campaign. Expect them to return if we opened abortion clinics.

Nothing says "Pro life" more than bombing a clinic.

ohnonotgmail

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Nothing says "Pro life" more than bombing a clinic.

you cant say they dont understand irony

Geuze

volchitsa wrote: »

GPs don't deliver babies any more, but going by costs in places that charge to the patient, like the US, I very much doubt an obstetrician gets less than 450€ for attending a birth. They get thousands in America.

GPs get paid to provide care to pregnant women during pregnancy.

Where I live, typically every second visit is to the GP, alternating with a hosp visit.

They will earn more for an abortion than for providing this maternity care.

SusieBlue

It just sounds like delaying tactics to me. The lack of free contraception can be linked to our poor standard of sex education and is an entirely separate issue to that of abortion.
A relevant issue, yes, and one that most certainly needs to be addressed. But not under the umbrella of legalising abortion services & not at the expense of delaying things even further.

ohnonotgmail

SusieBlue wrote: »

It just sounds like delaying tactics to me. The lack of free contraception can be linked to our poor standard of sex education and is an entirely separate issue to that of abortion.
A relevant issue, yes, and one that most certainly needs to be addressed. But not under the umbrella of legalising abortion services & not at the expense of delaying things even further.

Lets be honest, the type of people who are against abortion would object to free contraception as well. We are back to people presenting anti-abortion talking points but saying they are pro-choice.

Geuze

Geuze wrote: »

GPs get paid to provide care to pregnant women during pregnancy.

Where I live, typically every second visit is to the GP, alternating with a hosp visit.

They will earn more for an abortion than for providing this maternity care.

how did u vote asking for a friend

Berserker

Said many months back that this was going to be a balls up and it's well on a way to being that. All of this stuff should have been discussed and resolved before the referendum.

Geuze wrote: »

GPs get paid to provide care to pregnant women during pregnancy.

They get paid to provide a basic level of care. Anything above that is referred.

Geuze wrote: »

They will earn more for an abortion than for providing this maternity care.

Not sure about that given the proposed number of abortions which will take place here. My OH's friends are working from 8am til 7pm flat out these days as GPs. Hard to see how they'd fit in more people. Finally, if money is the aim of the game you are onto a loser if you are a GP.

Loafing Oaf

Berserker wrote: »

Said many months back that this was going to be a balls up and it's well on a way to being that. All of this stuff should have been discussed and resolved before the referendum.

Well then the government would've been accused of being presumptuous and taking a yes vote for granted. Seems to me a lot of the trouble stems from the rush to get the service up and running on January 1. I understand why they're doing this but I'd say it would have been better to postpone it a couple of months to make sure all ducks were lined up.

seamus

Berserker wrote: »

Said many months back that this was going to be a balls up and it's well on a way to being that. All of this stuff should have been discussed and resolved before the referendum.

It was.

All of the alleged "issues" are coming from the same groups who kept bringing them up before the referendum and had them dismissed.

A tiny group of pro-life GPs and nurses are throwing a hissy fit about it and will continue to do so. This doesn't mean that it hasn't been "discussed and resolved".

In the wider context having a service which is 80% of what it should be, up and running by 1 January is better than delaying for another six months to get to 90%.

Every day that legal abortion services are not available in Ireland forces women to travel for abortion. This is what we have to remember and ignore the posturing and politicking.

Berserker

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

Well then the government would've been accused of being presumptuous and taking a yes vote for granted. Seems to me a lot of the trouble stems from the rush to get the service up and running on January 1. I understand why they're doing this but I'd say it would have been better to postpone it a couple of months to make sure all ducks were lined up.

I agree that the rush in getting it up and running is part of the problem. However, if they were to have some sense and postpone it until everything is ready, they are going to get it from others. Disagree that consulting with GPs would have been presumptuous. It was/is a very important part of providing the service.

seamus wrote: »

A tiny group of pro-life GPs and nurses are throwing a hissy fit about it and will continue to do so. This doesn't mean that it hasn't been "discussed and resolved".

Not being petty but the issues haven't been resolved given the walkout that occurred. Also, pro-choice GPs are not happy about the manner in which it has been handled also. The GPs I know are happy to provide the service but they are not happy about the manner in which the government has managed the issue. The medical profession in general are very unhappy with the government. My OH and her colleagues are fuming over Leo's remarks about working during Christmas.

seamus

Berserker wrote: »

Not being petty but the issues haven't been resolved given the walkout that occurred.

The walkout was 50 pro-life GPs.

There is literally nothing the government can do to make these GPs happy except to ignore the referendum result.

"Resolved" can't mean, "Everyone is happy with the arrangement". But simply that the best compromise has been reached.

And it has. Conscientious objection is a thing. The fact that a tiny minority of GPs are still completely unsatisfied does not mean that we should delay.

Grayson

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

As much as i would like to believe that is true i dont think it is. They still hold protests outside Planned Parenthood in the states. Sometimes violently. There were some of those american nutters over here during the referendum campaign. Expect them to return if we opened abortion clinics.

I remember that being raised during the referendum and it was part of the reason for a GP led service.

If we had clinics you could expect the likes of Bernadette Smyth to set up shop outside them.

Loafing Oaf

Berserker wrote: »

I agree that the rush in getting it up and running is part of the problem. However, if they were to have some sense and postpone it until everything is ready, they are going to get it from others. Disagree that consulting with GPs would have been presumptuous. It was/is a very important part of providing the service.

I agree that Simon Harris should not have sprung the proposal on GPs the way he did. however, I think to have every aspect of the service sorted out in advance of the referendum would have seemed presumptuous and would very likely have antagonised undecided voters. As we saw from the Senate abolition referendum, voters don't like to be treated as sheep to be herded to the 'correct' outcome by their supposed betters.

ELM327

The referendum is over. When will these small minded "people" realise that they don't get to impose their "conscience" on others??

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Berserker wrote: »

Said many months back that this was going to be a balls up and it's well on a way to being that. All of this stuff should have been discussed and resolved before the referendum.



They get paid to provide a basic level of care. Anything above that is referred.



Not sure about that given the proposed number of abortions which will take place here. My OH's friends are working from 8am til 7pm flat out these days as GPs. Hard to see how they'd fit in more people. Finally, if money is the aim of the game you are onto a loser if you are a GP.

The figure bandied about is 5000. Divide that by 26 would give 192 abortions per county per year (yes, I know the actual number per county would differ based on population). So that’s an abortion every two days roughly per county. Not per doctor, per county. Not much extra work, is it?

ELM327

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

The figure bandied about is 5000. Divide that by 26 would give 192 abortions per county per year (yes, I know the actual number per county would differ based on population). So that’s an abortion every two days roughly per county. Not per doctor, per county. Not much extra work, is it?

Even if it were 1920 per county per year it isn't going to be much work. All the doctor has to do is hand one pill (and possibly administer the other pill).


Let's not forget, if you don't allow abortion, these women will be coming for pre natal appointments anyway so there's no extra work at all!

Berserker

seamus wrote: »

The fact that a tiny minority of GPs are still completely unsatisfied does not mean that we should delay.

650 signed the petition, fyi. Four weeks away from it's in introduction, including the Christmas period when the public bodies involved will be out of action and nobody knows how it is going to be implemented but we are good to go, apparently. I'm talking about the reality of implementing this service.

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

I agree that Simon Harris should not have sprung the proposal on GPs the way he did. however, I think to have every aspect of the service sorted out in advance of the referendum would have seemed presumptuous and would very likely have antagonised undecided voters. As we saw from the Senate abolition referendum, voters don't like to be treated as sheep to be herded to the 'correct' outcome by their supposed betters.

Talking to the people, the experts in the area, who are actually going to implement this would antagonise undecided voters. I've heard it all now.