Is this Dublin team the greatest in Gaelic football history

LeinsterDub · 03-09-2018 7:58pm

Powerhouse wrote: »

You can’t compare.......with credibility. You are assuming that a notional game between Dublin and a team from 50 years ago would take place on Dublin’s terms i.e. with their fitness regime as the benchmark, while assuming that the other team is not allowed to reach that. Why? Fitness is achievable and measurable. Presumably in a Harry Potter type world where such matches could take place the first issue the old time team would address would be the fitness deficit. Yet the first thing mentioned by the if-it-happened-five-minutes-ago-it’s-the-best-of-all-time is fitness. That’s one of the reason such discussions are ludicrous.

Your assuming a team from 50 years ago would have the commitment to reach that level of fitness. We've all heard the stories of the teams of the 70's and 80's drinking before a match. Charlie Redmond was smoking 20 a day in the 90's

blanch152 · 03-09-2018 7:58pm

legendary.xix wrote: »

It's no coincidence that Dublin's form has improved since they started playing home league games in Croke Park. It's a new dynamic since 2011 and a massive advantage to have.

You then factor in that Dublin Region consisting of Dublin City, Fingal County, South Dublin County and Dún Laoghaire–Rathdown County. Dublin is now essentially the 5th province of Ireland.

Dublin played their league games in Croke Park for years during the wilderness times and it never made a difference.

Just another lemony excuse.

nice_guy80 · 03-09-2018 8:03pm

blanch152 wrote: »

Dublin played their league games in Croke Park for years during the wilderness times and it never made a difference.

Just another lemony excuse.

in the kip of an old stadium on a bang average pitch?

maybe the truth hurts and most of the rest of the country are fast losing interest in the county games due to the huge advantages given to Dublin by the GAA themselves

Danjamin1 · 03-09-2018 8:20pm

Are all the naysayers of the opinion that Dublin had no success before 2011? The way people are going on you’d swear they hadn’t won an all Ireland or played in Croke Park up until that point. They didn’t just suddenly start winning, Dublin were already a very successful county. And for all the moaning about population it didn’t matter a damn how many people were in Dublin between 1995 & 2011. Don’t think there was much complaining then.

odyssey06 · 03-09-2018 8:21pm

legendary.xix wrote: »

It's no coincidence that Dublin's form has improved since they started playing home league games in Croke Park. It's a new dynamic since 2011 and a massive advantage to have.

You then factor in that Dublin Region consisting of Dublin City, Fingal County, South Dublin County and Dún Laoghaire–Rathdown County. Dublin is now essentially the 5th province of Ireland.

By this logic its not a home game. Fingal or Dun Laoghaire to Croker is a commute!

Argument makes no sense. Their league and all ireland form both improved since then. Dublin has always been by far the largest population county... it didnt just happen in the last 15 years and equally a lot of the population increase is from abroad.

I can see Croke Park from Eastpoint business park but there are thousands of people there who dont know what gaelic football is... or want to.

legendary.xix · 03-09-2018 8:23pm

nice_guy80 wrote: »

in the kip of an old stadium on a bang average pitch?

maybe the truth hurts and most of the rest of the country are fast losing interest in the county games due to the huge advantages given to Dublin by the GAA themselves

There's only one viable solution. Dublin as we know it taking up it's place as a province.

Dublin itself can be split in 4 at inter-county level using postcode areas as follows;

East Dublin - 1, 3, 5, 13 & 17.
North Dublin - 7, 9, 11, 15 & 20.
South Dublin - 2, 4, 6, 14, 16 & 18.
West Dublin - 8, 10, 12, 22 & 24.

odyssey06 · 03-09-2018 8:23pm

blanch152 wrote: »

Dublin played their league games in Croke Park for years during the wilderness times and it never made a difference.
Just another lemony excuse.

Yep if anything you would expect more home advantage from a crumbling stadium with crap facilities and mud sand pitch than a top of the line facility.

Speakerboxx · 03-09-2018 8:25pm

Powerhouse wrote: »

Cody has never managed a team to a football All Ireland so leave him out of it.

again you are as sharp as a razor with that comment full marks.

odyssey06 · 03-09-2018 8:25pm

legendary.xix wrote: »

There's only one viable solution. Dublin as we know it taking up it's place as a province.

Dublin itself can be split in 4 at inter-county level using postcode areas as follows;

East Dublin - 1, 3, 5, 13 & 17.
North Dublin - 7, 9, 11, 15 & 20.
South Dublin - 2, 4, 6, 14, 16 & 18.
West Dublin - 8, 10, 12, 22 & 24.

You forgot the Dublins that dont have postcodes, throw in 2 more sure while you are at it.

rm75 · 03-09-2018 8:30pm

invicta wrote: »

Your missing the point. No doubt about Dublinwinning all before them...but they have a third of the population,and home advantage 99%of the time. My point is the Kerry team of the early 80’s, tried Fellas in the league(s), and came back to the same TEAM!

Croke Park was effectively Kerrys home ground in the 80's. The top teams play consistently at Croke Park. Kerry and Mayo are well used to playing at Croke Park at this stage.

For a new team to the top table like Galway this year Dublin might have an advantage playing at Croke Park but anyone claiming Croke Park gives Dublin an advanatge over Kerry or Mayo is talking nonsense.

The standard in Ulster and Connacht was pretty poor in the 70's and 80's. Whoever won Leinster or Munster would win the AI until the mid 90's. In fact the only hope a Connacht/Ulster team had of even making the final was the years there was a Munster/leinster semi.

Having said that Kerry were a great team as are Dublin

Speakerboxx · 03-09-2018 8:34pm

legendary.xix wrote: »

There's only one viable solution. Dublin as we know it taking up it's place as a province.

Dublin itself can be split in 4 at inter-county level using postcode areas as follows;

East Dublin - 1, 3, 5, 13 & 17.
North Dublin - 7, 9, 11, 15 & 20.
South Dublin - 2, 4, 6, 14, 16 & 18.
West Dublin - 8, 10, 12, 22 & 24.

Oh Lord this again. What not split Kerry up as well while we are at it. North Kerry South Kerry West Kerry and East Kerry.

legendary.xix · 03-09-2018 8:41pm

Danjamin1 wrote: »

Are all the naysayers of the opinion that Dublin had no success before 2011? The way people are going on you’d swear they hadn’t won an all Ireland or played in Croke Park up until that point. They didn’t just suddenly start winning, Dublin were already a very successful county. And for all the moaning about population it didn’t matter a damn how many people were in Dublin between 1995 & 2011. Don’t think there was much complaining then.

2001 was the first time splitting Dublin was mooted. I agreed with it then and I agree with it now. Dublin is a province in modern Ireland. The GAA needs to embrace this evolution. It can actually bring the game to a higher level.

LeinsterDub · 03-09-2018 8:41pm

legendary.xix wrote: »

There's only one viable solution. Dublin as we know it taking up it's place as a province.

Dublin itself can be split in 4 at inter-county level using postcode areas as follows;

East Dublin - 1, 3, 5, 13 & 17.
North Dublin - 7, 9, 11, 15 & 20.
South Dublin - 2, 4, 6, 14, 16 & 18.
West Dublin - 8, 10, 12, 22 & 24.

How many counties do you plan to split Kilkenny and Kerry into?

odyssey06 · 03-09-2018 8:45pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

How many counties do you plan to split Kilkenny and Kerry into?

Look at population of Cork and Galway v rest of their provinces. They would have to be split too because if you split Dublin they would be biggest single counties left.

Powerhouse · 03-09-2018 8:47pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Your assuming a team from 50 years ago would have the commitment to reach that level of fitness.

Indeed I am. Why shouldn’t I assume it? You are not suggesting the sport would have ceased to exist if training levels had increased years ago? That the sport would die off because inter-county managers couldn’t get people to commit? That’s a fantasy. Of course I will assume a team from 50 years ago would have the commitment.

ArielAtom · 03-09-2018 8:48pm

Yes.

Powerhouse · 03-09-2018 8:51pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

How many counties do you plan to split Kilkenny and Kerry into?

Kilkenny have won 4 of their last 11 championship games. They should be split into individual parishes immediately with that level of dominance. It’s just not fair. They might soon get up to winning 50% of their matches and then where will we be. In further thrall to Cody.......that’s where.

legendary.xix · 03-09-2018 8:52pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

How many counties do you plan to split Kilkenny and Kerry into?

When Dublin assumes it's position as a province, it will have 4 very competitive district county teams entering the All-Ireland championship. It will serve the sport better, giving more players in such a populous area the opportunity to rightly play at inter-county level.

An inter-provincial championship of the 5 provinces then will naturally be the highest level of competition in the sport.

The_Honeybadger · 03-09-2018 8:53pm

Powerhouse wrote: »

But you are contradicting yourself when you say that several retirements will affect Dublin while using the “if you had said to most people in 2015.....” about other players. I would also suggest that it is quite possible that many Dublin players will not see themselves as being defined by the five in a row. I’d be surprised if they were as hung up on who has the biggest mickey as people in other counties. They strike me as a group which thinks differently and you might be surprised what players might not be there next year or who might be there even a year later.

How am I contradicting myself? I think if they do the five in a row cluxton will retire which will be huge, he is the constant in this team and the leader. MDMA, McMahon and a handful of others will probably go as well, not specifically because they’ve done 5 in a row, but because their time will probably be up. The 2011-13 team will effectively be gone.

I expect some of the other teams will have risen up by 2020 and we could see a more balanced championship at that stage. I know Dubs don’t want to hear this but they really aren’t playing a whole lot at the minute. You’d struggle to pick another team worthy of an All Ireland which is unusual.

LeinsterDub · 03-09-2018 8:54pm

Powerhouse wrote: »

Indeed I am. Why shouldn’t I assume it? You are not suggesting the sport would have ceased to exist if training levels had increased years ago? That the sport would die off because inter-county managers couldn’t get people to commit? That’s a fantasy. Of course I will assume a team from 50 years ago would have the commitment.

I'm not suggesting it would have ceased to exist. I'm suggesting that the gifted players of years gone by wouldn't have had the level of commitment required. The players of days gone by have admitted numerous times they wouldn't of had the commitment required to be on today's s panels

Powerhouse · 03-09-2018 8:57pm

Speakerboxx wrote: »

again you are as sharp as a razor with that comment full marks.

Not particularly sharp really. Just stating the obvious. Why try to bring irrelevant nonsensical comparisons into it? A Cody comparison is cliche central. We know Gavin has won several All Irelands. We don’t need a slow learners version.

odyssey06 · 03-09-2018 8:59pm

legendary.xix wrote: »

When Dublin assumes it's position as a province, it will have 4 very competitive district county teams entering the All-Ireland championship. It will serve the sport better, giving more players in such a populous area the opportunity to rightly play at inter-county level.

An inter-provincial championship of the 5 provinces then will naturally be the highest level of competition in the sport.

Impossible. It does nothing to raise standards. Would rugby standards be higher if new zealand competed as north and south islands? Would soccer standards be higher if Brazil had been split?
If splitting Dublin increases standard and competition then splitting Cork and Galway and Kerry too must have same effect too. Give Sligo and Clare more of a chance.

LeinsterDub · 03-09-2018 9:00pm

Powerhouse wrote: »

Kilkenny have won 4 of their last 11 championship games. They should be split into individual parishes immediately with that level of dominance. It’s just not fair. They might soon get up to winning 50% of their matches and then where will we be. In further thrall to Cody.......that’s where.

[disingenuous] noise [/disingenuous]

The_Honeybadger · 03-09-2018 9:00pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

I'm not suggesting it would have ceased to exist. I'm suggesting that the gifted players of years gone by wouldn't have had the level of commitment required. The players of days gone by have admitted numerous times they wouldn't of had the commitment required to be on today's s panels

Depends on what is the norm of the time. Many of the players of the past worked physically demanding jobs and just wouldn’t have been able for the training nowadays where extensive recovery time is needed, didn’t Paul Flynn ditch the plumbing and go back to college because of it? Players are much better looked after and more aware of their bodies now.

It’s not that players of the past weren’t committed, it’s just a different culture and approach now.

Ash.J.Williams · 03-09-2018 9:03pm

Judging by the next day interviews Dublin have a lot of medal hungry young players ready to get stuck in for next years campaign.... That's worrying news for the rest of the country!

You need two things to beat Dublin. Two panels of elite highly skilled athletes and millions euro.

Limerick are an example of what the right mix of skill and cash can bring! If you listen to the captains thank you speech it's essentially a professional background team.

Powerhouse · 03-09-2018 9:03pm

[QUOTE=LeinsterDub;107985677

I'm suggesting that the gifted players of years gone by wouldn't have had the level of commitment required. [/QUOTE]

Why not? This is an extraordinary claim. It’d be nice to see it backed up with something more than ‘lots of fells said....’. What was so lacking in previous generations that is so present in today’s and why?

LeinsterDub · 03-09-2018 9:04pm

legendary.xix wrote: »

When Dublin assumes it's position as a province, it will have 4 very competitive district county teams entering the All-Ireland championship. It will serve the sport better, giving more players in such a populous area the opportunity to rightly play at inter-county level.

An inter-provincial championship of the 5 provinces then will naturally be the highest level of competition in the sport.

Cork, Galway, Kerry and Kilkenny too?

Dublin managed to win the last 5 out of 6 finals by a point but of course bitter person on the internet reckons they can be spilt into 4 and still be competitive.

LeinsterDub · 03-09-2018 9:05pm

Powerhouse wrote: »

Why not? This is an extraordinary claim. It’d be nice to see it backed up with something more than ‘lots of fells said....’. What was so lacking in previous generations that is so present in today’s and why?

They've admitted it themselves for the third time. What's the legendary quote about Kerry footballer and the league?

odyssey06 · 03-09-2018 9:06pm

Powerhouse wrote: »

Why not? This is an extraordinary claim. It’d be nice to see it backed up with something more than ‘lots of fells said....’. What was so lacking in previous generations that is so present in today’s and why?

Its not a lack of X... its about willingness and ability to focus on GAA to the extent of career sacrifice or choice of careers, and social life.

LeinsterDub · 03-09-2018 9:09pm

mickeyk wrote: »

Depends on what is the norm of the time. Many of the players of the past worked physically demanding jobs and just wouldn’t have been able for the training nowadays where extensive recovery time is needed, didn’t Paul Flynn ditch the plumbing and go back to college because of it? Players are much better looked after and more aware of their bodies now.

It’s not that players of the past weren’t committed, it’s just a different culture and approach now.

As I said before in this exact thread Charlie Redmond went for a smoke before the 95 All Ireland. Is there a intercounty footballer at senior level that smokes today?

STB. · 03-09-2018 9:11pm

Yes this team are most certainly the greatest team of all time. Anyone who says otherwise is talking out their own backside.

The only records they'll have to break is the ones they have already set themselves.

Powerhouse · 03-09-2018 9:17pm

mickeyk wrote: »

How am I contradicting myself? I think if they do the five in a row cluxton will retire which will be huge, he is the constant in this team and the leader. MDMA, McMahon and a handful of others will probably go as well, not specifically because they’ve done 5 in a row, but because their time will probably be up. The 2011-13 team will effectively be gone.

I expect some of the other teams will have risen up by 2020 and we could see a more balanced championship at that stage. I know Dubs don’t want to hear this but they really aren’t playing a whole lot at the minute. You’d struggle to pick another team worthy of an All Ireland which is unusual.

Again, you contradict yourself. Players will go because their time is up. That means they will be gradually replaced as has happened with Brogan, Flynn etc. only three of the 2011 starting team are still around. The idea that Dublin will fall off a cliff is wishful thinking. I assumed myself this would end some t8m3 quite soon but after the semi final v Galway when I saw the range of scorers I realized that the end was not in sight.

I totally agree Dublin aren’t playing a whole lot. It’s not possible to win four consecutive titles if competition is brimming. But it’s not immediately obvious which teams are rapidly improving to bring us this balanced championship you are talking about. Last June Kerry were supposed to be the next big thing but tha5 was a bottle of smoke. So who will take over from Dublin?

The_Honeybadger · 03-09-2018 9:18pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

As I said before in this exact thread Charlie Redmond went for a smoke before the 95 All Ireland. Is there a intercounty footballer at senior level that smokes today?

So Charlie Redmond had a fag in 1995 so no player prior to 2011 had commitment. Jesus man will you read back what you are writing.

Powerhouse · 03-09-2018 9:20pm

STB. wrote: »

Yes this team are most certainly the greatest team of all time. Anyone who says otherwise is talking out their own backside.

Spoken like a man who has seen them all down the years.

The_Honeybadger · 03-09-2018 9:23pm

Powerhouse wrote: »

Again, you contradict yourself. Players will go because their time is up. That means they will be gradually replaced as has happened with Brogan, Flynn etc. only three of the 2011 starting team are still around. The idea that Dublin will fall off a cliff is wishful thinking. I assumed myself this would end some t8m3 quite soon but after the semi final v Galway when I saw the range of scorers I realized that the end was not in sight.

I totally agree Dublin aren’t playing a whole lot. It’s not possible to win four consecutive titles if competition is brimming. But it’s not immediately obvious which teams are rapidly improving to bring us this balanced championship you are talking about. Last June Kerry were supposed to be the next big thing but tha5 was a bottle of smoke. So who will take over from Dublin?

Will you go and look up the meaning of the word contradiction and don’t bring it up again please.

And I never said they will fall off a cliff, I said we should see a more balanced championship by 2020, hardly the same thing. I think they’ll stroll it next year because the competition is weak but they are very beatable If somebody improves. My hope is that one of Kerry, Galway, Tyrone or Mayo come again by then.

blanch152 · 03-09-2018 9:26pm

legendary.xix wrote: »

When Dublin assumes it's position as a province, it will have 4 very competitive district county teams entering the All-Ireland championship. It will serve the sport better, giving more players in such a populous area the opportunity to rightly play at inter-county level.

An inter-provincial championship of the 5 provinces then will naturally be the highest level of competition in the sport.

You are deluded. It won't happen.

Powerhouse · 03-09-2018 9:28pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

They've admitted it themselves for the third time. What's the legendary quote about Kerry footballer and the league?

It’s such a legendary quote that I never heard it but I’m sure it’s a good one and rigorously sourced as ever too.

LeinsterDub · 03-09-2018 9:29pm

mickeyk wrote: »

So Charlie Redmond had a fag in 1995 so no player prior to 2011 had commitment. Jesus man will you read back what you are writing.

If you want to read that into what I said. Your beyond help

The_Honeybadger · 03-09-2018 9:30pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

If you want to read that into what I said. Your beyond help

You are basically saying that players in the past wouldn’t have been able for today’s game. It’s utter pony.

Bonniedog · 03-09-2018 9:31pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

The current Dublin team would run all of those off the park in the first 5 minutes. It's silly to say you can't compare. Of course you can the current Dublin team are fitter and better organised than any of those teams. Now then it comes to skill that's a matter of opinion.

Would Lombardi's Packers of 1967 beaten Aaron Rodgers' Packer of 45 years later?

NFL has barely changed in that time but the modern team is far bigger and better conditioned. Not to mention more user friendly equipment and pitches.

If Lombardi had the same conditions as the modern team then it would be fair comparison but he didn't so it is rather pointless exercise to compare teams of different eras in any sport. Same applies to individual sport. Runners 60 years ago wore track shoes that were more like the canvas shoes people wear on beaches than the modern ones!

LeinsterDub · 03-09-2018 9:33pm

Powerhouse wrote: »

It’s such a legendary quote that I never heard it but I’m sure it’s a good one and rigorously sourced as ever too.

'Life isn't all beer and football...some of us haven't touched a football in months' –

Kerry player during league campaign 1980s

Powerhouse · 03-09-2018 9:34pm

odyssey06 wrote: »

Its not a lack of X... its about willingness and ability to focus on GAA to the extent of career sacrifice or choice of careers, and social life.

But this is bonkers. The Dublin players drive around in sponsored cars. For the love of Jaysus if players from 50 years ago had that kind of luxury it’d be far easier to be “willing” to make “sacrifices”. You would think the players 50 years ago were living a life of decadence compared to the modern day spartans.

blanch152 · 03-09-2018 9:35pm

It is very strange to see posters arguing in one thread that Dublin are not the greatest team of all time, yet they are arguing in another thread that Dublin's dominance is ruining the game.

I really don't understand it, while you can argue that Dublin are the GOAT but are not ruining the game with their dominance, you can hardly say that they are ruining the game with their dominance if they are not the GOAT, as the game would have been ruined sometime in the past by whoever is the GOAT.

FrancieBrady · 03-09-2018 9:38pm

blanch152 wrote: »

It is very strange to see posters arguing in one thread that Dublin are not the greatest team of all time, yet they are arguing in another thread that Dublin's dominance is ruining the game.

I really don't understand it, while you can argue that Dublin are the GOAT but are not ruining the game with their dominance, you can hardly say that they are ruining the game with their dominance if they are not the GOAT, as the game would have been ruined sometime in the past by whoever is the GOAT.

If you think hard about that you might see the reticence about getting into the GOAT conversation about this team on threads that prohibit you from talking about the reasons for that reticence.
Dublin's edge comes from the very things being spoken about here.

STB. · 03-09-2018 9:43pm

Powerhouse wrote: »

Spoken like a man who has seen them all down the years.

In my lifetime. Yes.

Most people who answer this question will at least have an acceptable threshold on which to measure. I know I have.

You know there's probably an amateur debating society that you can join that you could discuss the merits of subjectivity extensively.

Just don't confuse me with someone who gives a toss about your witty retort.

Powerhouse · 03-09-2018 9:43pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

'Life isn't all beer and football...some of us haven't touched a football in months' –

Kerry player during league campaign 1980s

You swallow this sort of stuff whole I suppose? I wouldn’t read too much into it. There are Kerry players from that era who played for years and have hip replacements and knee replacements as a result and frankly deserve far more than glib ould ****e like this suggesting that they had no commitment. If that’s the extent of your argument you’re at nothing.

LeinsterDub · 03-09-2018 9:44pm

mickeyk wrote: »

You are basically saying that players in the past wouldn’t have been able for today’s game. It’s utter pony.

No I'm saying certain greats of the past wouldn't of had the commitment

LeinsterDub · 03-09-2018 9:47pm

Powerhouse wrote: »

You swallow this sort of stuff whole I suppose? I wouldn’t read too much into it. There are Kerry players from that era who played for years and have hip replacements and knee replacements as a result and frankly deserve far more than glib ould ****e like this suggesting that they had no commitment. If that’s the extent of your argument you’re at nothing.

I didn't say they as a whole had no commitment, in fact I didn't even suggest individually they had no commitment. What I said was in years gone by certain players could get by on being extremely talented. Nowadays talent alone isn't enough

legendary.xix · 03-09-2018 9:47pm

odyssey06 wrote: »

Impossible. It does nothing to raise standards. Would rugby standards be higher if new zealand competed as north and south islands? Would soccer standards be higher if Brazil had been split?
If splitting Dublin increases standard and competition then splitting Cork and Galway and Kerry too must have same effect too. Give Sligo and Clare more of a chance.

Dublin competing in an inter-provincial championship against the other 4 provinces brings the sport to a higher level.

Connaught v Dublin
Leinster v Munster

Ulster v Connaught
Dublin v Leinster

Munster v Ulster
Leinster v Connaught

Munster v Dublin
Ulster v Leinster

Connaught v Munster
Dublin v Ulster

Top 2 from round robin series into the final.

Powerhouse · 03-09-2018 9:50pm

STB. wrote: »

In my lifetime.

If you genuinely didn’t give a toss you wouldn’t have replied. Anyway the timeframe above is more sensible and the tone far less arrogant and more tolerable than your original “anyone who doesn’t agree with me has their up there arse”.

Is this Dublin team the greatest in Gaelic football history

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