Should Dublin ban Burqas and Hijabs?

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Feminists and women in general on this thread should realise that these guys are not your allies.

It's the general movement of various leftist groups, like Feminists... short term feelings of righteousness to show everyone that their opinions are more sympathetic, more liberal, more free, more... whatever.

And it sacrifices the future for that short term feeling... and they won't be responsible for what happens later, because victims are never responsible.. They'll blame Muslims for not conforming to their perception of how things should have been... and complain about how others try to clean up their mess... (without providing any workable solutions showing they haven't learned a thing) Yay! more righteous indignation and posturing. :rolleyes:

Odhinn wrote: »

Rather irrelevant to the millions who live here now.

Sure, it is. Everything is irrelevant to them, outside of their own needs.

As is everything.... with you. (Considering what you wrote next)

Typical xenophobic cack. Somebody wearing a veil or the like is no threat to western culture. The reaction of some to it may well be, however.

Ahh... typical liberal fantasyland rebuttal.. :rolleyes:

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I didn’t say there was no difference between here and there. That would be stupid. Of course there are differences in cultures between here and there. There are even differences between subgroups in our own tiny population, so when someone suggests that people coming over here need to live by our rules, more often than not it’s they who are engaging in cultural and moral relativism from their own perspective, because I sure as hell wasn’t made aware of any particular set of immutable rules that are standard across the board which we all agree on?

Sure, we do. Western countries have sets of laws, and cultural behaviors which can be found commonly across most western nations. Now, the majority of our laws come from the influence of Christianity, and how it interacted with governments/kingdoms throughout our history, along with the influence of other religions or subcultures.... but we do have common viewpoints (which are reflected in our laws) regarding the rights of people, the need for protection of children, etc. Slavery and inalienable rights are a much later addition but, again, they're shared across all western cultures.

And the belief that immigrants should live by our rules, is based around those cultural and legal laws/rules which have been developed over centuries of conflict. Conflict between different cultural groups. Conflict between religious groups. Conflict politically, etc. We (western nations in Europe rather than including the US) do have a common perception regarding most primary issues, which would be different from what most Muslims consider to be inherent to their own cultural history or identity. So, the "demand" that Muslims follow our rules, is to follow the rules that our own society has generated in compensating for a rather violent past from multiple cultural pressures. The real problem though is that those pressures were founded in Western civilisation rather than the more external/foreign pressure that is modern Islam.

AH would be a fairly empty place if we had indeed some set of rules and standards which we all agreed on. Considering the whole idea of this set of values that we supposedly share in Ireland, that goes to shìt among even larger populations like most European countries or the US where there are a whole multitude of competing cultural and moral standards, so why would you imagine then that the Middle East as a whole, considering the population we’re talking about, could possibly be one large homogeneous group? They aren’t, any more than we are in the West.

True enough. They're not. We're not. However, in both cases, there is a cultural/moral history which has "evolved" a set of ethics and morality regarding behavior. It's similar to the evolution of the Anti-war movements in both Europe and the US both during/after the Vietnam war. That freedom of expression encourages the shift within our culture on popular issues. The difference though is that you will find very little of that in Islamic countries (or Asian countries, for that matter) because there are other regulatory influences. In Islamic countries, Religion is interlinked with society and limits the ability to move too much away from the past. In Asia, the intentional social conditioning along with historical perception of authority (bureaucracy) limits them too.

Modern Western culture is based around individualistic notions of place and identity, but as time goes by, is becoming more collectivist (with the rise of "liberal" notions in academia). Islamic nations started collectivist and the push of religion in recent decades, is reinforcing that collectivist perception.

bubblypop wrote: »

Why would we be idiots to accept others that our different to ourselves?

Ahh, but that's the thing. This isn't about accepting others. That happens all the time in western culture. This is about accepting their culture has equal (and in some ways, a superior claim for acceptance) to/than our own culture. All the while, not expecting them to accept our own culture while they're here.

This is the main point. We wouldn't be having these problems if Muslims could accept western culture and live as per western practices. If they did, then they would be the same as the millions of Asians who live in western countries and we never hear a peep about them being difficult. They're accepted. Their religious or cultural practices are being followed, but there is no expectation that everyone else has to conform to them.... instead, typically, they integrate to a degree and keep their habits personal.

So, yes, we are being idiots. To allow another culture to grow in our countries that has never even suggested that it would tolerate western habits.... It's idiotic that we are simply assuming that they will because that's generally what Modern Europeans do in other countries outside of Europe.