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Child Item

Should Dublin ban Burqas and Hijabs?

Skinhead Kane

Greetings guys and girls,

I have been thinking about this topic for quite some time now and have yet to make a real judgement on what truly would be a correct answer. If were to go to a country populated by the Muslim community we would be asked to cover up and follow their religious procedure.

Therefore in Britain and Ireland I believe we are within our rights to ban something that isolates woman and was made by men to oppress them. If I were to show my hair/head in their countries, I would be seen as obscene.

Recently came back from a trip and had some female friends been told by locals to cover their arms and legs as well as hair before entering out of the city centre areas. It was a very aggressive approach to and almost demanded 'or we leave the country' type of attitude. Now not using this as a reason or motive to make this topic, but it has however got me thinking.

If I could vote on it, I would ban burqas and possibly hijab.

What's your take on this guys?

Regards,

Sk

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Wibbs

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Like I said - it’s a matter of perspective, and we’re no better or worse in the West as a society than they are in the Middle East.

I've read some daft things in my time and that's right near the top of the pops of daft things. The last time I saw perspective that slanted was in a Georges Braque painting. Cultural relativism; a social ideology masquerading as a fact.

The Crowman

FTA69 wrote: »

Have you ever spoken to a woman in a hijab or niqab? The idea that you’re going to help a woman by forcing her to tog off at the pool is loopy mate.

Muslim women aren’t dopes. They also happen to believe in Islam and often have deep concepts of modesty. They don’t want or need you to insist they wear a bikini for their own good.

Whats with the Islamic obsession with "modesty" in women? Its a word you keep coming across in these discussions.

suicide_circus

Wibbs wrote: »

I've read some daft things in my time and that's right near the top of the pops of daft things. The last time I saw perspective that slanted was in a Georges Braque painting. Cultural relativism; a social ideology masquerading as a fact.

you're assuming there that everyone wants liberty. some slaves are glad of their chains

Roger Hassenforder

Odhinn wrote: »

For a few hundred years being a catholic was a great disadvantage in this country. Look how that worked out.

Its starting to work out ok, small steps. We're getting there. We've abortion, divorce, a gay Taoiseach, nondemonination schools...

You'd imagine though, with such expressions, of the negative impact of the more virtuous, you'd be anxious we dont take a step backwards, by tolerating a manifestation of a most fundamentalist intolerance.

Franz Von Peppercorn

Wibbs wrote: »

I've read some daft things in my time and that's right near the top of the pops of daft things. The last time I saw perspective that slanted was in a Georges Braque painting. Cultural relativism; a social ideology masquerading as a fact.

It’s the ideology of the slow suicide of the West alright.

At this stage we have a certain type of left winger telling us the Islamic world is fine, as good if not better than the west. A burka is no big deal. Sure let all the women wear one.

Feminists and women in general on this thread should realise that these guys are not your allies.

(All of this is separate from “us” - mostly the US - imposing values on them by invasions and bombing. That’s nonsense too).

Pretzill

The Crowman wrote: »

Whats with the Islamic obsession with "modesty" in women? Its a word you keep coming across in these discussions.

I don't think it's modesty (though I used the word myself) in extreme terms it's covering up so no other men feel inclined to be attracted to them sexually - which makes the wearing of the nijab in minors even more disgusting imo.

I would be of the opinion organised religion should be banned too but I can't see that happening.

[Deleted User]

timthumbni wrote: »

Rampant child abuse? You are a winner sir...

Except that child abuse isn't/wasn't rampant. To suggest it was rampant, would mean that the majority of those within the Church engaged in such behavior. Which I have seen no to evidence to support such an idea. That child abuse occurred is definitely true, and but this need to paint the whole religion as being involved or responsible is ridiculous. (although it's interesting the way people bend over backwards to excuse Islamic behavior as individualistic or as a minority... but are quick to lambaste the C Church and those connected with it. I'm not Catholic btw)

And TBF the negatives of the Church in Ireland affected the majority general population through censorship, blocking birth control, forcing pregnancies, interference in government, women's rights, gay rights etc. Child abuse wouldn't be the biggest limitation that the Church previously reinforced in Ireland.

[Deleted User]

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Feminists and women in general on this thread should realise that these guys are not your allies.

It's the general movement of various leftist groups, like Feminists... short term feelings of righteousness to show everyone that their opinions are more sympathetic, more liberal, more free, more... whatever.

And it sacrifices the future for that short term feeling... and they won't be responsible for what happens later, because victims are never responsible.. They'll blame Muslims for not conforming to their perception of how things should have been... and complain about how others try to clean up their mess... (without providing any workable solutions showing they haven't learned a thing) Yay! more righteous indignation and posturing. :rolleyes:

Odhinn

Wanderer78 wrote: »

im agnostic, and i think we re doing grand

timthumbni wrote: »

Rampant child abuse? You are a winner sir...

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

Its starting to work out ok, small steps. We're getting there. We've abortion, divorce, a gay Taoiseach, nondemonination schools...

You'd imagine though, with such expressions, of the negative impact of the more virtuous, you'd be anxious we dont take a step backwards, by tolerating a manifestation of a most fundamentalist intolerance.

Star prizes for being obtuse. The fact is that state repression caused people to "double down" in relation to their religion. Theres no reason to believe the same would not be true of Islamic traditions.

Wanderer78

Odhinn wrote: »

Star prizes for being obtuse. The fact is that state repression caused people to "double down" in relation to their religion. Theres no reason to believe the same would not be true of Islamic traditions.

again, those scary foreigners, and their scary foreign ideas, moving on...

Odhinn

Wanderer78 wrote: »

again, those scary foreigners, and their scary foreign ideas, moving on...

I've no idea what you're trying to say there, tbh.

timthumbni

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Odhinn wrote: »

Star prizes for being obtuse. The fact is that state repression caused people to "double down" in relation to their religion. Theres no reason to believe the same would not be true of Islamic traditions.

again, those scary foreigners, and their scary foreign ideas, moving on...

Do you support their scary foreign ideas btw?

[Deleted User]

Odhinn wrote: »

Star prizes for being obtuse. The fact is that state repression caused people to "double down" in relation to their religion. Theres no reason to believe the same would not be true of Islamic traditions.

Except that Islam is not native to Europe or Western civilisations.

Doubling down is fine... they can do that while getting on a plane for Iran or UAE. If they wish to live in Europe, then they can live by our "rules". It's not as if there aren't stable Muslim countries out there where they can live with their religious beliefs and have a similar standard of living to Europe. They can. It's just much harder to do so.

Just as I would have to conform to the culture and laws of Iran if I wished to live there.

Odhinn

Deleted User wrote: »

Except that Islam is not native to Europe or Western civilisations. .

Rather irrelevant to the millions who live here now.

Deleted User wrote: »

Doubling down is fine... they can do that while getting on a plane for Iran or UAE. If they wish to live in Europe, then they can live by our "rules". It's not as if there aren't stable Muslim countries out there where they can live with their religious beliefs and have a similar standard of living to Europe. They can. It's just much harder to do so.

Just as I would have to conform to the culture and laws of Iran if I wished to live there.

Typical xenophobic cack. Somebody wearing a veil or the like is no threat to western culture. The reaction of some to it may well be, however.

Roger Hassenforder

Odhinn wrote: »

Star prizes for being obtuse. The fact is that state repression caused people to "double down" in relation to their religion. Theres no reason to believe the same would not be true of Islamic traditions.

Hyp...hypo....

& And a straw man.

[Deleted User]

Odhinn wrote: »

Rather irrelevant to the millions who live here now.

Sure, it is. Everything is irrelevant to them, outside of their own needs.

As is everything.... with you. (Considering what you wrote next)

Typical xenophobic cack. Somebody wearing a veil or the like is no threat to western culture. The reaction of some to it may well be, however.

Ahh... typical liberal fantasyland rebuttal.. :rolleyes:

Taytoland

Wibbs wrote: »

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Like I said - it’s a matter of perspective, and we’re no better or worse in the West as a society than they are in the Middle East.

I've read some daft things in my time and that's right near the top of the pops of daft things. The last time I saw perspective that slanted was in a Georges Braque painting. Cultural relativism; a social ideology masquerading as a fact.

Not to mention of course it's absolute nonsense. No difference between here and that part of the world, give me a break.

flazio

Not gone through 22 pages of replies so forgive me. If we mean head scarves that don't cover the face, sure our grannies used to wear something like that to roman Catholic mass. I see no issues there.
Full face concealment for whatever reason should be banned however.
That's my view on the matter.

AllForIt

I was listening to a Muslim academic being interviewed on uk radio after the Boris Johnson newspaper article where he made some insulting remark about the burka. Don't recall her name but she made a formal complaint about it to the Tory party which is why she was being interviewed. Anyway the interviewer put it to her that some ppl find the burka a bit strange and she replied - yeah well we're stocked when we see scantily clad women on the beach. This remark which I'm sure she regrets saying on public radio (not that she didn't mean it) really shows me the reality of what this is all about - cause you know it's not really about being 'closer to God' is it.

One eyed Jack

Taytoland wrote: »

Not to mention of course it's absolute nonsense. No difference between here and that part of the world, give me a break.

I didn’t say there was no difference between here and there. That would be stupid. Of course there are differences in cultures between here and there. There are even differences between subgroups in our own tiny population, so when someone suggests that people coming over here need to live by our rules, more often than not it’s they who are engaging in cultural and moral relativism from their own perspective, because I sure as hell wasn’t made aware of any particular set of immutable rules that are standard across the board which we all agree on?

AH would be a fairly empty place if we had indeed some set of rules and standards which we all agreed on. Considering the whole idea of this set of values that we supposedly share in Ireland, that goes to shìt among even larger populations like most European countries or the US where there are a whole multitude of competing cultural and moral standards, so why would you imagine then that the Middle East as a whole, considering the population we’re talking about, could possibly be one large homogeneous group? They aren’t, any more than we are in the West.

timthumbni

We will accept their culture and beliefs without question. To do otherwise you will be labelled a racist and zenophope. We really are a bunch of idiots when it comes down to it.

[Deleted User]

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I didn’t say there was no difference between here and there. That would be stupid. Of course there are differences in cultures between here and there. There are even differences between subgroups in our own tiny population, so when someone suggests that people coming over here need to live by our rules, more often than not it’s they who are engaging in cultural and moral relativism from their own perspective, because I sure as hell wasn’t made aware of any particular set of immutable rules that are standard across the board which we all agree on?

Sure, we do. Western countries have sets of laws, and cultural behaviors which can be found commonly across most western nations. Now, the majority of our laws come from the influence of Christianity, and how it interacted with governments/kingdoms throughout our history, along with the influence of other religions or subcultures.... but we do have common viewpoints (which are reflected in our laws) regarding the rights of people, the need for protection of children, etc. Slavery and inalienable rights are a much later addition but, again, they're shared across all western cultures.

And the belief that immigrants should live by our rules, is based around those cultural and legal laws/rules which have been developed over centuries of conflict. Conflict between different cultural groups. Conflict between religious groups. Conflict politically, etc. We (western nations in Europe rather than including the US) do have a common perception regarding most primary issues, which would be different from what most Muslims consider to be inherent to their own cultural history or identity. So, the "demand" that Muslims follow our rules, is to follow the rules that our own society has generated in compensating for a rather violent past from multiple cultural pressures. The real problem though is that those pressures were founded in Western civilisation rather than the more external/foreign pressure that is modern Islam.

AH would be a fairly empty place if we had indeed some set of rules and standards which we all agreed on. Considering the whole idea of this set of values that we supposedly share in Ireland, that goes to shìt among even larger populations like most European countries or the US where there are a whole multitude of competing cultural and moral standards, so why would you imagine then that the Middle East as a whole, considering the population we’re talking about, could possibly be one large homogeneous group? They aren’t, any more than we are in the West.

True enough. They're not. We're not. However, in both cases, there is a cultural/moral history which has "evolved" a set of ethics and morality regarding behavior. It's similar to the evolution of the Anti-war movements in both Europe and the US both during/after the Vietnam war. That freedom of expression encourages the shift within our culture on popular issues. The difference though is that you will find very little of that in Islamic countries (or Asian countries, for that matter) because there are other regulatory influences. In Islamic countries, Religion is interlinked with society and limits the ability to move too much away from the past. In Asia, the intentional social conditioning along with historical perception of authority (bureaucracy) limits them too.

Modern Western culture is based around individualistic notions of place and identity, but as time goes by, is becoming more collectivist (with the rise of "liberal" notions in academia). Islamic nations started collectivist and the push of religion in recent decades, is reinforcing that collectivist perception.

Diceicle

Put to a vote I'd ban the burqa / niqab - not bothered about the hijab per se.
I was thinking it'd be FF that might swing to the right and propose something like this. Not likely any time soon but couldn't see Fg or SF doing it.

Wibbs

One eyed Jack wrote: »

AH would be a fairly empty place if we had indeed some set of rules and standards which we all agreed on.

We do. Posters get banned all the time for breaking them.

Considering the whole idea of this set of values that we supposedly share in Ireland, that goes to shamong even larger populations like most European countries or the US where there are a whole multitude of competing cultural and moral standards, so why would you imagine then that the Middle East as a whole, considering the population we’re talking about, could possibly be one large homogeneous group? They aren’t, any more than we are in the West.

That doesn't explain why you think we're no better or worse.

Never mind that it's highly debatable. For all the "multitude of competing cultural and moral standards" in Europe there is a recognisably "European" culture overall. Even though there are more competing cultural and moral standards within Europe. Democracy, church and state separation, increasing equality to different demographics, free press, narrower wealth divide, large scale social welfare systems, for the most part centre left in politics, even dictatorships tend to have short lives and is constantly evolving and has been for centuries. The Middle East on the other hand is much more a collection of cultures consisting of religious authority, strongman politics, higher corruption, larger wealth divide, less equality, a less free press, with a lot of censorship and an increasing tide of religious and political fundamentalism. And damn near a thousand years of stasis on those scores. The "best" nations in the ME are not utter crapholes on the surface, because they have oil and we want it. Even then it's a very expensive petrodollar funded veneer over some well dodgy cultural and societal practices. Most of them would still have slavery if it were not for the Western World's beady eye. Even then you don't want to be a non White migrant worker in any of those countries.

Yeah, I think I'll take Europe and European values and codes of conduct thanks very much, and yes consider them far superior overall. There's a few good reasons why the flood of immigrants into Europe aren't heading for nations filled with their "fellow Muslims". They know they're crapholes. And of course they also know any of the richer ones would turn their boats around and let them drown. Jordan is one of the vanishingly few in that part of the world that extended a humanitarian hand.

[Deleted User]

timthumbni wrote: »

We will accept their culture and beliefs without question. To do otherwise you will be labelled a racist and zenophope. We really are a bunch of idiots when it comes down to it.

Why would we be idiots to accept others that our different to ourselves?

[Deleted User]

bubblypop wrote: »

Why would we be idiots to accept others that our different to ourselves?

Ahh, but that's the thing. This isn't about accepting others. That happens all the time in western culture. This is about accepting their culture has equal (and in some ways, a superior claim for acceptance) to/than our own culture. All the while, not expecting them to accept our own culture while they're here.

This is the main point. We wouldn't be having these problems if Muslims could accept western culture and live as per western practices. If they did, then they would be the same as the millions of Asians who live in western countries and we never hear a peep about them being difficult. They're accepted. Their religious or cultural practices are being followed, but there is no expectation that everyone else has to conform to them.... instead, typically, they integrate to a degree and keep their habits personal.

So, yes, we are being idiots. To allow another culture to grow in our countries that has never even suggested that it would tolerate western habits.... It's idiotic that we are simply assuming that they will because that's generally what Modern Europeans do in other countries outside of Europe.

timthumbni

bubblypop wrote: »

timthumbni wrote: »

We will accept their culture and beliefs without questions as. To do otherwise you will be labelled a racist and zenophope. We really are a bunch of idiots when it comes down to it.

Why would we be idiots to accept others that our different to ourselves?

They would never accept us. Remember that. This useful idiot crap is good for a sound bite but anyone who stands up for an Islamic idea of women is frankly ridiculous. Women in Islam don’t have a choice. They are instructed what to do.

Wibbs

bubblypop wrote: »

Why would we be idiots to accept others that our different to ourselves?

When their culture and beliefs are at odds with ours and looking to history and how other European nations have fared with their own minority populations.

No doubt you believe in gender and sexual equality and freedom? OK then what if your Irish born and bred neighbour considers these abhorrent concepts that have no place in society and is a major homophobe and chauvinist. Would you blindly accept and respect them and their "differences"? I doubt it and you would be right. So why blindly accept a non Irish born and bred neighbour who feels the same, just because it's based on their culture?

A few studies in the UK and Holland and France have shown that a worrying percentage of moderates within Muslim communities frown on gender equality and homosexuality. It's not just the extremists. Extremists don't live, nor can they survive in a vacuum.

blinding

I am seriously concerned that some of these women in Burkas are entertaining their private parts while ogling me . How is one to know what they are up to ?

Pinch Flat

Anyway OP had been banned. Did anyone manage to let him know who in Dublin (Corpo, GAA county board, RDS etc) would manage to ban the burqa or hijab?