Should Dublin ban Burqas and Hijabs?

bubblypop wrote: »

I don't understand what you are trying to say?
Just because I may not be friends with someone doesn't mean I think they should be banned from the country.

What I am asking BP is why import such attitudes? We've enough of our own, though thankfully that number is dropping. Two generations ago it was a different landscape. But let's look to our neighbour in the UK. A survey was commissioned by Channel 4 into attitudes among British Muslims. Now there were some encouraging positives. Things like a feeling of being "British" and a strong feeling of belonging in their local area(I'd be more interested to see the survey account for how many were living in areas that were predominantly folks with similar backgrounds) were higher than background. There also was a very low level of support for acts of terror. However, over half thought homosexuality shouldn't be legal and nearly half thought Gay people shouldn't be teachers. Nearly a quarter believed Sharia law should be introduced in some areas. Over a third thought wives should always obey their husbands. One in six wanted to live separately to the background culture.

Now this is a population with a generations deep presence in the UK, exposed to the local culture over time. That nearly half didn't think being Gay should be illegal is doubtless part of that, but it still leaves a substantial percentage who stay separate on many points of cultural exchange.

That's before we look at the other social problems that come when numbers of newcomers from a different cultural background reach a certain point. A trend we see in every single European country that has reached that point. Hell, not just European countries. When incoming numbers hit a critical point anywhere and anywhen in history it causes issues, sometimes bloody serious ones. This trend is nothing to do with race or creed either. It's part of the human condition.

My point as always is that why should we in Ireland rush into following the example of other countries to increase the existing social problems we have to deal with?

Wibbs wrote: »

No doubt you believe in gender and sexual equality and freedom? OK then what if your Irish born and bred neighbour considers these abhorrent concepts that have no place in society and is a major homophobe and chauvinist. Would you blindly accept and respect them and their "differences"? I doubt it and you would be right. So why blindly accept a non Irish born and bred neighbour who feels the same, just because it's based on their culture?
.

Accept & respect? I don't think I would be friends with an Irish person who's beliefs were total opposite to mine, & neither would I be friends with any non Irish who's beliefs are totally opposite to mine.
I don't understand what you are trying to say?
Just because I may not be friends with someone doesn't mean I think they should be banned from the country.
Oh, & luckily my Muslim's friends are not homophobic or chauvanistic, much the same as my Irish friends.

teticuk

meh

Odhinn wrote: »

Wow - some of them went through a country or two to get into Europe. I take it all back now, it's clearly a muslamic invasion.

So you're admitting you've no actual cogent response? No comeback with facts? No answers to Kuwait rounding the refugees up and deporting them? No answers to the paltry 15,000 the UAE are saying they'll take in over a five year period?

Basically your initial list and numbers involved was a nonsense and I showed that in the case of a few of them. I can bring to bear more sources on the rest of them if you like, including internal sources from the ME and the countries on your list.

But no, in the face of those pesky things called facts, you're already bringing out the "muslamic invasion" stuff in lieu of reasoned debate? *slow handclap*

Wibbs wrote: »

Oh so avoid t(.............) Algeria.

Wow - some of them went through a country or two to get into Europe. I take it all back now, it's clearly a muslamic invasion.

Odhinn wrote: »

You dismissing them as "holding stations" is not a fact, its your tired opinion.

Oh so avoid the uncomfortable facts about UAE, SA and Kuwait that show your figures to be a nonsense and go for that angle?

OK I'll play... Here's but one map of the refugee routes into Europe.

Which countries are the conduits? Oh look.... Turkey, Lebanon and Egypt, along with Libya, Morocco and Algeria.

Wibbs wrote: »

No you w(........) are at best misinformed.

You dismissing them as "holding stations" is not a fact, its your tired opinion.

Odhinn wrote: »

No need, as I was right the first time.

No you were wrong. Demonstrably so. I included links from people on the ground, you just stated numbers. I can post more links from local and independent sources including from any number of neutral, even "left wing" sources. No Nazi sources required, so you needn't fret there. So you are at best misinformed.

Wibbs wrote: »

............
So yeah, try again oul son.

No need, as I was right the first time.

And less of the condescension please.

Well I knew you of all posters would baulk at that and toe your right on party line. Might do you some good to actually look at the figures involved. . Most of the ME countries aren't even signatories to the major international refugee conventions.

Take the UAE. There were already over 100,000 Syrians working there before the crisis. The number they've actually taken in since the shit hit the fan? They've agreed to allow in fifteen thousand over a five year period from 2016. Jaysus that's big of them.

Kuwait? Again like the UAE they already had 100,000 odd Syrians working there before the crisis. That's how your figures are padded. Funny how their own newspapers had been wondering why they're doing sweet feck all. That was 2015, this is 2018 where the same wonderful Kuwaiti's are now going to arrest and deport all Syrian and Yemeni refugees. They've already started handing them back to the Syrians

Many Muslim commentators have noted the decidedly lacklustre response of the richest Arab states, only too happy for Europe to take up their slack. Oh but they'll spend billions on mosques for them when they get here. 200 of them so far.

Others on your list include many(Turkey, Lebanon, Sudan, Egypt) who are little more than holding stations before the "refugees" make the break for the promised land of Europe.

Numbers flooding into Europe, that Europe is housing and feeding? Millions. Just over five million since 08 asylum applications.

So yeah, try again oul son.

Wibbs wrote: »

We do. Posters get banned all the time for breaking them.

That doesn't explain why you think we're no better or worse.

Never mind that it's highly debatable. For all the "multitude of competing cultural and moral standards" in Europe there is a recognisably "European" culture overall. Even though there are more competing cultural and moral standards within Europe. Democracy, church and state separation, increasing equality to different demographics, free press, narrower wealth divide, large scale social welfare systems, for the most part centre left in politics, even dictatorships tend to have short lives and is constantly evolving and has been for centuries. The Middle East on the other hand is much more a collection of cultures consisting of religious authority, strongman politics, higher corruption, larger wealth divide, less equality, a less free press, with a lot of censorship and an increasing tide of religious and political fundamentalism. And damn near a thousand years of stasis on those scores. The "best" nations in the ME are not utter crapholes on the surface, because they have oil and we want it. Even then it's a very expensive petrodollar funded veneer over some well dodgy cultural and societal practices. Most of them would still have slavery if it were not for the Western World's beady eye. Even then you don't want to be a non White migrant worker in any of those countries.

Yeah, I think I'll take Europe and European values and codes of conduct thanks very much, and yes consider them far superior overall. There's a few good reasons why the flood of immigrants into Europe aren't heading for nations filled with their "fellow Muslims". They know they're crapholes. And of course they also know any of the richer ones would turn their boats around and let them drown. Jordan is one of the vanishingly few in that part of the world that extended a humanitarian hand.

Except lebanon with 2 million.

And Turkey with 3.5 million

And the UAE with about 200,000

And Iraq with 200,000

And Kuwait with about 150,000.

And Sudan with 100,000

And yemen with 100,000.

And Egypt with about 100,000.

And Saudi with in and around 400-500,000.

(Figures for Refugees of the Syrian civil war)

But yeah "vanisingly rare"

Pinch Flat

Anyway OP had been banned. Did anyone manage to let him know who in Dublin (Corpo, GAA county board, RDS etc) would manage to ban the burqa or hijab?

blinding

I am seriously concerned that some of these women in Burkas are entertaining their private parts while ogling me . How is one to know what they are up to ?

bubblypop wrote: »

Why would we be idiots to accept others that our different to ourselves?

When their culture and beliefs are at odds with ours and looking to history and how other European nations have fared with their own minority populations.

No doubt you believe in gender and sexual equality and freedom? OK then what if your Irish born and bred neighbour considers these abhorrent concepts that have no place in society and is a major homophobe and chauvinist. Would you blindly accept and respect them and their "differences"? I doubt it and you would be right. So why blindly accept a non Irish born and bred neighbour who feels the same, just because it's based on their culture?

A few studies in the UK and Holland and France have shown that a worrying percentage of moderates within Muslim communities frown on gender equality and homosexuality. It's not just the extremists. Extremists don't live, nor can they survive in a vacuum.

timthumbni

bubblypop wrote: »

timthumbni wrote: »

We will accept their culture and beliefs without questions as. To do otherwise you will be labelled a racist and zenophope. We really are a bunch of idiots when it comes down to it.

Why would we be idiots to accept others that our different to ourselves?

They would never accept us. Remember that. This useful idiot crap is good for a sound bite but anyone who stands up for an Islamic idea of women is frankly ridiculous. Women in Islam don’t have a choice. They are instructed what to do.

bubblypop wrote: »

Why would we be idiots to accept others that our different to ourselves?

Ahh, but that's the thing. This isn't about accepting others. That happens all the time in western culture. This is about accepting their culture has equal (and in some ways, a superior claim for acceptance) to/than our own culture. All the while, not expecting them to accept our own culture while they're here.

This is the main point. We wouldn't be having these problems if Muslims could accept western culture and live as per western practices. If they did, then they would be the same as the millions of Asians who live in western countries and we never hear a peep about them being difficult. They're accepted. Their religious or cultural practices are being followed, but there is no expectation that everyone else has to conform to them.... instead, typically, they integrate to a degree and keep their habits personal.

So, yes, we are being idiots. To allow another culture to grow in our countries that has never even suggested that it would tolerate western habits.... It's idiotic that we are simply assuming that they will because that's generally what Modern Europeans do in other countries outside of Europe.

timthumbni wrote: »

We will accept their culture and beliefs without question. To do otherwise you will be labelled a racist and zenophope. We really are a bunch of idiots when it comes down to it.

Why would we be idiots to accept others that our different to ourselves?

One eyed Jack wrote: »

AH would be a fairly empty place if we had indeed some set of rules and standards which we all agreed on.

We do. Posters get banned all the time for breaking them.

Considering the whole idea of this set of values that we supposedly share in Ireland, that goes to shamong even larger populations like most European countries or the US where there are a whole multitude of competing cultural and moral standards, so why would you imagine then that the Middle East as a whole, considering the population we’re talking about, could possibly be one large homogeneous group? They aren’t, any more than we are in the West.

That doesn't explain why you think we're no better or worse.

Never mind that it's highly debatable. For all the "multitude of competing cultural and moral standards" in Europe there is a recognisably "European" culture overall. Even though there are more competing cultural and moral standards within Europe. Democracy, church and state separation, increasing equality to different demographics, free press, narrower wealth divide, large scale social welfare systems, for the most part centre left in politics, even dictatorships tend to have short lives and is constantly evolving and has been for centuries. The Middle East on the other hand is much more a collection of cultures consisting of religious authority, strongman politics, higher corruption, larger wealth divide, less equality, a less free press, with a lot of censorship and an increasing tide of religious and political fundamentalism. And damn near a thousand years of stasis on those scores. The "best" nations in the ME are not utter crapholes on the surface, because they have oil and we want it. Even then it's a very expensive petrodollar funded veneer over some well dodgy cultural and societal practices. Most of them would still have slavery if it were not for the Western World's beady eye. Even then you don't want to be a non White migrant worker in any of those countries.

Yeah, I think I'll take Europe and European values and codes of conduct thanks very much, and yes consider them far superior overall. There's a few good reasons why the flood of immigrants into Europe aren't heading for nations filled with their "fellow Muslims". They know they're crapholes. And of course they also know any of the richer ones would turn their boats around and let them drown. Jordan is one of the vanishingly few in that part of the world that extended a humanitarian hand.

Diceicle

Put to a vote I'd ban the burqa / niqab - not bothered about the hijab per se.
I was thinking it'd be FF that might swing to the right and propose something like this. Not likely any time soon but couldn't see Fg or SF doing it.

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I didn’t say there was no difference between here and there. That would be stupid. Of course there are differences in cultures between here and there. There are even differences between subgroups in our own tiny population, so when someone suggests that people coming over here need to live by our rules, more often than not it’s they who are engaging in cultural and moral relativism from their own perspective, because I sure as hell wasn’t made aware of any particular set of immutable rules that are standard across the board which we all agree on?

Sure, we do. Western countries have sets of laws, and cultural behaviors which can be found commonly across most western nations. Now, the majority of our laws come from the influence of Christianity, and how it interacted with governments/kingdoms throughout our history, along with the influence of other religions or subcultures.... but we do have common viewpoints (which are reflected in our laws) regarding the rights of people, the need for protection of children, etc. Slavery and inalienable rights are a much later addition but, again, they're shared across all western cultures.

And the belief that immigrants should live by our rules, is based around those cultural and legal laws/rules which have been developed over centuries of conflict. Conflict between different cultural groups. Conflict between religious groups. Conflict politically, etc. We (western nations in Europe rather than including the US) do have a common perception regarding most primary issues, which would be different from what most Muslims consider to be inherent to their own cultural history or identity. So, the "demand" that Muslims follow our rules, is to follow the rules that our own society has generated in compensating for a rather violent past from multiple cultural pressures. The real problem though is that those pressures were founded in Western civilisation rather than the more external/foreign pressure that is modern Islam.

AH would be a fairly empty place if we had indeed some set of rules and standards which we all agreed on. Considering the whole idea of this set of values that we supposedly share in Ireland, that goes to shìt among even larger populations like most European countries or the US where there are a whole multitude of competing cultural and moral standards, so why would you imagine then that the Middle East as a whole, considering the population we’re talking about, could possibly be one large homogeneous group? They aren’t, any more than we are in the West.

True enough. They're not. We're not. However, in both cases, there is a cultural/moral history which has "evolved" a set of ethics and morality regarding behavior. It's similar to the evolution of the Anti-war movements in both Europe and the US both during/after the Vietnam war. That freedom of expression encourages the shift within our culture on popular issues. The difference though is that you will find very little of that in Islamic countries (or Asian countries, for that matter) because there are other regulatory influences. In Islamic countries, Religion is interlinked with society and limits the ability to move too much away from the past. In Asia, the intentional social conditioning along with historical perception of authority (bureaucracy) limits them too.

Modern Western culture is based around individualistic notions of place and identity, but as time goes by, is becoming more collectivist (with the rise of "liberal" notions in academia). Islamic nations started collectivist and the push of religion in recent decades, is reinforcing that collectivist perception.

timthumbni

We will accept their culture and beliefs without question. To do otherwise you will be labelled a racist and zenophope. We really are a bunch of idiots when it comes down to it.

One eyed Jack

Taytoland wrote: »

Not to mention of course it's absolute nonsense. No difference between here and that part of the world, give me a break.

I didn’t say there was no difference between here and there. That would be stupid. Of course there are differences in cultures between here and there. There are even differences between subgroups in our own tiny population, so when someone suggests that people coming over here need to live by our rules, more often than not it’s they who are engaging in cultural and moral relativism from their own perspective, because I sure as hell wasn’t made aware of any particular set of immutable rules that are standard across the board which we all agree on?

AH would be a fairly empty place if we had indeed some set of rules and standards which we all agreed on. Considering the whole idea of this set of values that we supposedly share in Ireland, that goes to shìt among even larger populations like most European countries or the US where there are a whole multitude of competing cultural and moral standards, so why would you imagine then that the Middle East as a whole, considering the population we’re talking about, could possibly be one large homogeneous group? They aren’t, any more than we are in the West.

AllForIt

I was listening to a Muslim academic being interviewed on uk radio after the Boris Johnson newspaper article where he made some insulting remark about the burka. Don't recall her name but she made a formal complaint about it to the Tory party which is why she was being interviewed. Anyway the interviewer put it to her that some ppl find the burka a bit strange and she replied - yeah well we're stocked when we see scantily clad women on the beach. This remark which I'm sure she regrets saying on public radio (not that she didn't mean it) really shows me the reality of what this is all about - cause you know it's not really about being 'closer to God' is it.

flazio

Not gone through 22 pages of replies so forgive me. If we mean head scarves that don't cover the face, sure our grannies used to wear something like that to roman Catholic mass. I see no issues there.
Full face concealment for whatever reason should be banned however.
That's my view on the matter.

Taytoland

Wibbs wrote: »

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Like I said - it’s a matter of perspective, and we’re no better or worse in the West as a society than they are in the Middle East.

I've read some daft things in my time and that's right near the top of the pops of daft things. The last time I saw perspective that slanted was in a Georges Braque painting. Cultural relativism; a social ideology masquerading as a fact.

Not to mention of course it's absolute nonsense. No difference between here and that part of the world, give me a break.

Odhinn wrote: »

Rather irrelevant to the millions who live here now.

Sure, it is. Everything is irrelevant to them, outside of their own needs.

As is everything.... with you. (Considering what you wrote next)

Typical xenophobic cack. Somebody wearing a veil or the like is no threat to western culture. The reaction of some to it may well be, however.

Ahh... typical liberal fantasyland rebuttal.. :rolleyes:

Roger Hassenforder

Odhinn wrote: »

Star prizes for being obtuse. The fact is that state repression caused people to "double down" in relation to their religion. Theres no reason to believe the same would not be true of Islamic traditions.

Hyp...hypo....

& And a straw man.

Deleted User wrote: »

Except that Islam is not native to Europe or Western civilisations. .

Rather irrelevant to the millions who live here now.

Deleted User wrote: »

Doubling down is fine... they can do that while getting on a plane for Iran or UAE. If they wish to live in Europe, then they can live by our "rules". It's not as if there aren't stable Muslim countries out there where they can live with their religious beliefs and have a similar standard of living to Europe. They can. It's just much harder to do so.

Just as I would have to conform to the culture and laws of Iran if I wished to live there.

Typical xenophobic cack. Somebody wearing a veil or the like is no threat to western culture. The reaction of some to it may well be, however.