So who's going to see the Pope?

Trasna1 wrote: »

The rite hasn't been commonly offered since Vatican II, but it still exists, you'd have to ask a priest specifically perform it.

So it would be one of those Latin Rite congregations or similar so? I wonder how many have requested it?

Women could not attend the Christening of their baby UNLESS they had been Churched beforehand. Mother had no say regarding the timing of the Christening, it was usually a couple of days after the birth of the child, back in the day.

I am getting a spidey feeling about your posts here. There are organisations called Opus Dei, and Family and Life, and the Iona Institute that might suit you better, but that would be preaching to the converted!

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

My mother remembers having to be "churched" after my birth, presumably that was because she had to have intercourse to conceive me. My Dad didn't have to go through that ritual.

I remember my mother having to be "churched" after the birth of my two younger sisters. (Very early 70's)

I remember the orphanage in my town. I remember X who was in 5th class with me. She didn't spend a lot of time in 5th class as she was always doing jobs for the nuns. What jobs I have no idea to be honest but I do know she had to work in the laundry.

In school we were encouraged not to make friends with girls in the orphanage. But my sister made a good friend with one on "those" girls. We wanted her to come and have what you now call a sleepover in our home. The nuns were totally against it. But my mother stayed firm and she got her way.

I can't remember that girl's name but what I do remember was that she was so, so quiet and barely spoke for the whole weekend.

So I like Pope Francis but all of his apologies can't eradicate my experiences of seemingly holy men and women.

It is, was and always will be about control by men over women.

Rebut that if anyone has the energy right now. Women are totally excluded from Ministry in the CC. Only good if they have a decent vacuum cleaner and are great at chasing dust and cleaning the church. Oh an are good flower arranging and can do a reading or give out Communion too. Back in yer box after that!

I wish I could not blame those women. But I honestly do now. They will never emerge from the tyranny of the CC if they decide not to be equals.

And it won't ever happen in my lifetime either. The Vatican fears women you see. And the women they fear have left in their droves. What kind of women are left now? Be honest here.

Mike Loud Embryo wrote: »

The mother was not out for health reasons, as the christening often happened the day after the child was born or even the same day. Hence the bigger role in christenings for God parents then.

Oh dear. I have said all this. But why could a mother not attend the Church for their child's christening unless they had gone through the Churching ritual? Surely if christening was so important it could have been done by the bedside of the lying in mother?

I think it was another way to control women and mothers. Get the kid baptised today, we will church that slut in the next few weeks, keep her out of it all, be grand.

Do you see what I mean here despite my evident vitriol? Fathers could attend everything and do what they liked.

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

That’s my point exactly.

They still go back to the church for various reasons. This perfect catholic thing doesn’t really exist except for the hardcore believers. The rest just are a la carte as someone said above.

But when the third engine on the four engines plane goes kaput even the atheists takes a chance on a few Hail Marys.

Edgware wrote: »

But when the third engine on the four engines plane goes kaput even the atheists takes a chance on a few Hail Marys.

LOL, "Oh God", Jesus, help me. It is instinctive.

I suppose those of non Christian backgrounds have their own hollerings too.

None of us want to die. Because it is the end really. Well no one came back to tell me otherwise. Much as I would have loved to see and hear them again. Not going to happen.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

If this God is going to let in Roman Catholics who break all his 'rules' I dare say there is a good chance atheists will get in too under the God in his Infinite Mercy clause.
How would he tell the difference, a card stamped showing you attended mass when the humour was on you or I watched the pope in the Phoenix Park on the telly?

Indeed.

I'd say also, follow the money re the Vatican. The Pope is just a smokescreen and he knows it.

So much wealth and so little redress for those defiled and humiliated over the years. Says it all for me anyway. Not really much God there, but a lot of ritual, the Pope's weekly audience and so on.

But the Vatican is off the radar really other than the odd popping out of the Pope for the masses now and then. Keeps the faithful happy, while who knows what is happening behind the scenes. The Pope is a puppet.

Arthur Daley wrote: »

Who runs the show in this conspiracy?

The Curia and the Gays. Nothing wrong with the Gays, but they do not admit they are. Because they cannot. Or they will turn into a pillar of salt.

However, the Curia is a dangerous entity and runs the show. Pope is just a figurehead and is terrified of them.

Anyone in ordinary life every heard of the word "dicastery", well read this and you will see the word but may still have no idea what it means! You will never hear that word in your own parish either.

All meant to obfuscate and hark back to the obscurity of Latin to exclude most of us.

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/index.htm

NIMAN wrote: »

I always wondered how the church were able to avoid any police service coming to take these paedo's away for questioning?

Is some child reported me or you as an abuser, I'd say the Guards would be at my door looking to get me in for questioning.

Yet did they ever go along to bishops and question them over withholding information, or for harbouring criminals? How many parochial houses did they do morning raids on?

Would the Italian police be able to go to the Vatican to arrest someone? (I'n guessing not since it is a separate country to Italy).

I think there is something very wrong about the Vatican State, well the Curia and the banking system anyway. They seem to be invincible and never subject to any scrutiny.

We will probably never know, but it is healthy to have suspicions about the set up just the same. I doubt any Italian would be willing to question the Pope. That is why the Curia wheel him out every now and then. No one can ask any questions.

Rotten to the absolute core I would suggest, and no wonder Benny decided to feck off out of it all. But he was a fekkin coward too. But may have had a price on his head who knows. It's all a bit odd.

The wording of documents emanating from the Curia are designed to keep the ordinary Joe/Josephine from any meddling. Quite a medieval entity IMV, keep the Vassals in line.

The Pope is nothing but a figurehead. Doubt he has any power to change anything at all. Well no other Pope dared over the last forty odd years did they?

Call me a sceptic if you want, but honestly it is just so weird a set up, it is no wonder yer man that wrote those books made a mint. Sorry his name just won't come to me right now.

jimbobaloobob wrote: »

Dan Brown?

The very man, thanks.

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

It is, was and always will be about control by men over women.

I would never deny the sh!t that women go through under Catholic doctrine but this idea that gets thrown around that it's a barrel of laughs for guys is totally disingenuous and kinda pisses me off tbh. For instance, a young boy's sexuality is suppressed just as much by moronic Catholic doctrine as a young woman's - young boys are routinely old by "Christians" that they're somehow committing an offence against the universe if they touch their own privates or look at a girl and find her attractive. Obviously that didn't go as far as boys literally being locked up for being sexual like it did with girls, but plenty of boys have been through absolute hell at the hands of warped, f*cked up Catholic dogma and the indoctrination into that.

I personally don't see it as being as black and white as "control of men by women" - men who don't conform to the "sex is evil and it's only tolerated for the purpose of not going extinct as a species" bullsh!t are just as vilified by the Catholic Church. Hell, online forums about Christianity in the early 2000s littered with posts from guys desperately seeking advice on how not to go to hell after they "lost control" and had an occasional fap. And God help the poor lads of the same era who realised they were gay and sought help in avoiding eternity in a fiery furnace for that grave offence against humanity - sincerely believing that this awaited them after having literally done nothing wrong is a psychological torment I can't even imagine.

It's utterly f*cked up and in my view it doesn't discriminate by gender the way some claim it does. The church is utterly sh!t towards women, but it's also utterly sh!t towards guys who don't want to hop on the asexuality bandwagon.

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

I would never deny the sh!t that women go through under Catholic doctrine but this idea that gets thrown around that it's a barrel of laughs for guys is totally disingenuous and kinda pisses me off tbh. For instance, a young boy's sexuality is suppressed just as much by moronic Catholic doctrine as a young woman's - young boys are routinely old by "Christians" that they're somehow committing an offence against the universe if they touch their own privates or look at a girl and find her attractive. Obviously that didn't go as far as boys literally being locked up for being sexual like it did with girls, but plenty of boys have been through absolute hell at the hands of warped, f*cked up Catholic dogma and the indoctrination into that.

I personally don't see it as being as black and white as "control of men by women" - men who don't conform to the "sex is evil and it's only tolerated for the purpose of not going extinct as a species" bullsh!t are just as vilified by the Catholic Church. Hell, online forums about Christianity in the early 2000s littered with posts from guys desperately seeking advice on how not to go to hell after they "lost control" and had an occasional fap. And God help the poor lads of the same era who realised they were gay and sought help in avoiding eternity in a fiery furnace for that grave offence against humanity - sincerely believing that this awaited them after having literally done nothing wrong is a psychological torment I can't even imagine.

It's utterly f*cked up and in my view it doesn't discriminate by gender the way some claim it does. The church is utterly sh!t towards women, but it's also utterly sh!t towards guys who don't want to hop on the asexuality bandwagon.

Lots of young boys were shipped off to the christian brothers and other religious orders to become monks or priests from a really young age (12 or 13 years old) and were denied any chance of ever exploring their own sexuality in a natural and healthy way. Children were recruited directly out of Primary school to join the orders.

The fact that christian brothers were taken away from their homes when they were barely teenagers and raised in institutions under disciplinarian conditions does explain why so many of them grew up to become sexual deviants and violent disciplinarians.

My wife's father was one of those children who managed to get out before his training was complete (he ran away to England) and he never spoke about his time there only to say that he didn't want to talk about it.

The catholic church destroyed so many lives in so many different ways

EdgeCase wrote: »

You’ve also got the history of boys being beaten to absolute pulp by the old school system. Then far, far worse to those who were in the industrial schools and even in some cases normal boarding schools. I’ve heard stories that would really leave you feeling ill. It was mostly savage and sadistic brutality and there was a huge amount of psychological and emotional abuse too.

Women got an extra dose of sadistic treatment due to the hang ups about sexuality and particularly pregnancy that wasn’t authorised by the church.

The whole thing was absolutely awful though. There are generations absolutely messed up by it.

I actually wonder is part of the reason the Irish economy was so flat until the 1990s because of how the system treated people. When you look at how school children were beaten up and made to conform to work camp or prison like conditions, abused, aggressively attacked and told constantly not to talk and not to express themselves, it basically knocked the creativity out of them

Whilst there may some truth in the way the church and state wanted to keep us good god fearing catholics dancing at the cross-roads, not on a sunday night mind you, I think you are totally over egging that as a reason.
Lemass set the ball rolling.
Dev should have been put out to grass decades before as he held the country back in so many ways.

The entry to EU cannot be underestimated, nor the advent of free secondary education thanks to Donogh O'Malley in the 60s.
This really started to bear fruit in late 70s and 80s.

EdgeCase wrote: »

Was the result of that several generations of underachieving, lack of self confidence and people flourishing when they were away from “the system” in other countries ?

Opportunity my dear boy/girl.
I know of someone that left school at 14, the usual age for end of primary school and got job with council as tea boy.
He left and went to America.
He finished high school at night, went to college, got a degree, masters and PHD and major job with multi-national.
He would never have the opportunity here.

Also in places like the states, failure has never been punished as here, so many people can fail a few times before they succeed.

Another huge stumbling block was the availability of credit.
I remember working in small West of Ireland struggling manufacturing company in early 90s and the fear, the pure fear, that existed when one of our major banks came calling to review loans and financial state.
These were the same fooking banks that a decade later were fooking money out like confetti at a wedding to every Tom, Dick and Mary who wanted to build property.
One of the same banks the taxpayers had to bail out.

EdgeCase wrote: »

From what I can see modern Ireland only began to emerge in the 70s and mostly emerged in the late 80s and 90s. The fundamental changes having happened with the end of things like corporal punishment in the early 80s.

It was not corporal punishment.

Education in 70s, 80s.
EEC membership.
FDI into Ireland.
And from the 80s onwards the computer industry multi-national players coming into Ireland due to
a) our very low tax rates
b) our EEC/EU membership and
c) our cheap educated workforce who spoke English

All of the above changed Ireland from a backward backwater to an out front country.

There were other cultural things that happened particularly in 80s, early 90s that changed the perception of Irish people and gave the country confidence that they could achieve, even on the biggest stages.

Things like fact that we had Irish pop bands topping the charts in Uk and USA, our soccer team going to international tournaments and doing ok, we had Irish sportsmen suddenly winning world titles.
Don't underestimate things even like Eurovision were we blew the socks off people with an interval act and our staging was revolutionary for it's time.

Suddenly we were not just taking part we were competing, we were leading and doing a damn fine job.

Actually as someone who went through school and experienced the latter stage of corporal punishment I think it's end was a two edged sword.
In my time there wasn't the same brutality that existed in my parents time, but some teachers of course could be utter bast*rds.

But what is the situation now?
Cases of feral kids effectively getting away with intimidation of teachers.
And often shag all is being done about it.
Why, because the little scrot johnny can't be touched.

I think education and our easy access to the rest of the modern world helped make people cop on that there was something better out there, that we no longer had to cow tow to the local priest.
The bishop casey affair was one of the watershed moments and then all the following revelations about the likes of brendan smyth, etc really set the rot in.
Suddenly even people who had believed in the church and it's preaching all their lives were questioning.

Hitman3000 wrote: »

....... wrote: »

Power, control, more believers. Thats all its about.

You forgot money.

you gotta make the money first. Then when you get the money, you get the power. Then when you get the power, then you get the women.

Arthur Daley wrote: »

I know some who would have heard it was sold out in early July and gave up on it. They weren't going to go trawling through facebook or donedeal looking on the off chance. (They have busy family lives).But if they had a ticket and where set up from a few weeks out to travel to Dublin they would have gone and enjoyed it.

That's funny. Because the tickets never sold out.
It just reached the end of the timeframe with still >200k available