So who's going to see the Pope?

Sycamore Tree · 27-08-2018 08:51PM

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Why did God not arrange for dry weather on Sunday. I must ask him!

I thought he could do anything. But he didn't protect little children and single mothers, and the sale of children, and the violation of the Magdalens and children abused, and so much more.

My mother remembers having to be "churched" after my birth, presumably that was because she had to have intercourse to conceive me. My Dad didn't have to go through that ritual.

So many things wrong. So very many things just plain wrong with the CC. No wonder people are just fekking off in their droves.

Those who choose to remain will be the believers, and will never be a la carte. Good luck to them.

Can you explain the bit in bold? Why/How?

NIMAN · 27-08-2018 08:54PM

Some of its rituals might have seemed normal to a backward nation 50 years ago, but those days are gone. Ireland is very progressive and modern, and that sort of old nonsense isn't washing with the population any more.

You can see that the church and their teachings are at odds with the general consenus, and thats why they are dying. If they can't see that they need to change, so be it.

FrancieBrady · 27-08-2018 08:54PM

Sycamore Tree wrote: »

Can you explain the bit in bold? Why/How?

You had to be cleansed ritually after birth. I actually remember my mother going for it after the birth of my youngest brother and sister. '68 and 70 if I remember correctly.

murpho999 · 27-08-2018 08:57PM

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

I’d say that covers a lot but also lot of ppl would tell u how much they believe in it all. Each to their own

I fully agree with each to their own but the church and its flock don't have an "each to their own" policy hence all the problems they have caused in this country and lateness in having proper laws on social issues.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1 · 27-08-2018 08:58PM

Sycamore Tree wrote: »

Can you explain the bit in bold? Why/How?

Catholics, Anglicans, Lutherans and the eastern churches had a ceremony where a blessing was given to mothers after childbirth. It included thanksgiving for the woman's survival of childbirth.
It was related to Jewish practice where women were purified after giving birth.

FrancieBrady · 27-08-2018 08:59PM

murpho999 wrote: »

I fully agree with each to their own but the church and its flock don't have an "each to their own" policy hence all the problems they have caused in this country and lateness in having proper laws on social issues.

Exactly. I don't care if you want to worship a goat. Just don't have your nose stuck in what I want to do and how I want to live.

Spanish Eyes · 27-08-2018 09:00PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You had to be cleansed ritually after birth. I actually remember my mother going for it after the birth of my youngest brother and sister. '68 and 70 if I remember correctly.

A woman had to be cleansed, never a man.

And they could not attend the baptism/christening of their child until they had been "churched/cleansed" either. Back in the day the child was baptised within a few days, so many women could not even attend the christening of their child.

But Dad could!

There are echoes of a Jewish tradition in this too.

Honestly. WTAF? My mother who is ailing now is still raging at them for missing my christening because she could not be "churched" in time. But the hospital arranged the christening, and that was that.

So fkn cruel. Mothers then had just as much love for their children as nowadays, but by the iron fist of the CC had to obey the rules. Poor woman.

Edward M · 27-08-2018 09:02PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

So no answer then, just some wishy washy nonsense that we hear all the time about the 'fullness of the mercy of God'.

Why are there rules and dogma if it all comes down to what God decides?

Basically yes.
I still call myself catholic, I may not be one in the strictest sense, but who is anyone to say I'm not?
No human could follow every rule to the letter of the law of the church I think.
Let the catholic who is perfect stand up and call me out, let anyone who isn't a catholic even call me on it.
I surely think that the Vatican is corrupt and have hidden the truth in so much of the scandals that have been highlighted, but these aren't perfect catholics either and they are like me, human.
I don't believe in any perfect humanity, it just isn't a thing that can be achieved.
Am I a bad person because other humans who happen to catholics do horrific things, I don't think so, but if anyone thinks I'm bad because I identify myself as something that has done bad things then so be it.
Our prisons are full to the gills with bad Irish people, catholics and other, are we all bad Irish people because of that?

lmimmfn · 27-08-2018 09:04PM

@ the OP, when's he coming?

FrancieBrady · 27-08-2018 09:06PM

Edward M wrote: »

Basically yes.
I still call myself catholic, I may not be one in the strictest sense, but who is anyone to say I'm not?
No human could follow every rule to the letter of the law of the church I think.
Let the catholic who is perfect stand up and call me out, let anyone who isn't a catholic even call me on it.
I surely think that the Vatican is corrupt and have hidden the truth in so much of the scandals that have been highlighted, but these aren't perfect catholics either and they are like me, human.
I don't believe in any perfect humanity, it just isn't a thing that can be achieved.
Am I a bad person because other humans who happen to catholics do horrific things, I don't think so, but if anyone thinks I'm bad because I identify myself as something that has done bad things then so be it.
Our prisons are full to the gills with bad Irish people, catholics and other, are we all bad Irish people because of that?

You are a Roman Catholic or a Catholic. If it is a Roman Catholic that is because you are aligned to the Vatican. Protestants are catholics.

Sycamore Tree · 27-08-2018 09:07PM

Has anyone an account in the Vatican bank? What kind of interest rates are they offering?

NIMAN · 27-08-2018 09:09PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You are a Roman Catholic or a Catholic. If it is a Roman Catholic that is because you are aligned to the Vatican. Protestants are catholics.

Have you tried telling Arlene that?;)

Spanish Eyes · 27-08-2018 09:13PM

I doubt that FOI or GDPR or whatever applies to the Vatican State. But they are not EU are they? But seem to have all the advantages nonetheless. Divine Intervention I am sure..

I have no proof, but the Vatican State appears to me to have dodgy money and banks and openly gay seminarians and everything that goes against the real word of God within its square mile or whatever it is.

All Popes are puppets too. There is always someone else pulling the strings in the background. Benny resigned because he could not control the mess.

If they wish to change my mind they can, but they haven't up to now.

UsedToWait · 27-08-2018 09:15PM

Sycamore Tree wrote: »

Has anyone an account in the Vatican bank? What kind of interest rates are they offering?

They only do bridging loans.

Trasna1 · 27-08-2018 09:20PM

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

A woman had to be cleansed, never a man.

And they could not attend the baptism/christening of their child until they had been "churched/cleansed" either. Back in the day the child was baptised within a few days, so many women could not even attend the christening of their child.

But Dad could!

There are echoes of a Jewish tradition in this too.

Honestly. WTAF? My mother who is ailing now is still raging at them for missing my christening because she could not be "churched" in time. But the hospital arranged the christening, and that was that.

So fkn cruel. Mothers then had just as much love for their children as nowadays, but by the iron fist of the CC had to obey the rules. Poor woman.

It wasn't a ritual cleansing, but a blessing. It was one that had it's origins in it being the end of a period known as lying-in which was a continental custom.

The rite still exists afaik and father's receive a blessing now too.

Fighting Tao · 27-08-2018 09:22PM

Sycamore Tree wrote: »

Has anyone an account in the Vatican bank? What kind of interest rates are they offering?

Insurance is not their main market but they sell Child Rape protection policies for a third party.

FrancieBrady · 27-08-2018 09:25PM

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

I doubt that FOI or GDPR or whatever applies to the Vatican State. But they are not EU are they? But seem to have all the advantages nonetheless. Divine Intervention I am sure..

I have no proof, but the Vatican State appears to me to have dodgy money and banks and openly gay seminarians and everything that goes against the real word of God within its square mile or whatever it is.

All Popes are puppets too. There is always someone else pulling the strings in the background. Benny resigned because he could not control the mess.

If they wish to change my mind they can, but they haven't up to now.

I think they had investments in a condom factory at one time. More pretence and lies.

Spanish Eyes · 27-08-2018 09:25PM

Trasna1 wrote: »

It wasn't a ritual cleansing, but a blessing. It was one that had it's origins in it being the end of a period known as lying-in which was a continental custom.

The rite still exists afaik and father's receive a blessing now too.

What country is that in? Certainly not here in Ireland in the CC.

Did you read my post about mothers not being able to attend their child's christening if they had not been "Churched" before the Crhistening ceremony of their child?

Spanish Eyes · 27-08-2018 09:29PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I think they had investments in a condom factory at one time. More pretence and lies.

Nothing surprises me anymore about the Vatican State. It appears to me to be so corrupt that they wheel out the head honcho every so often to make it look good. I think Ireland just gave them a left hook though.

Honestly it is just bizarre really that the Vatican stuff is not ever commented on really. Someone knows about it all, so either they have been paid off, or might get a poisoned umbrella in their back. So stay quiet it is.

Trasna1 · 27-08-2018 09:35PM

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

What country is that in? Certainly not here in Ireland in the CC.

Did you read my post about mothers not being able to attend their child's christening if they had not been "Churched" before the Crhistening ceremony of their child?

The rite hasn't been commonly offered since Vatican II, but it still exists, you'd have to ask a priest specifically perform it.

Women weren't excluded from a christening because they were somehow defiled, it was because historically a woman wasn't expected (often allowed) to leave home until the lying in period was over. This custom was meant to reduce mother mortality which was high until relatively recently. Churching was a ceremony which marked the end of this postpartum confinement.

uptherebels · 27-08-2018 09:40PM

Allinall wrote: »

100% of posters on this and other threads watched and lived every moment of the pope’s visit, so I’d say the indo “s figures are fairly accurate.

Well I for one didn't watch a second of any of it. Guess your wrong with that 100%

Spanish Eyes · 27-08-2018 09:41PM

Trasna1 wrote: »

The rite hasn't been commonly offered since Vatican II, but it still exists, you'd have to ask a priest specifically perform it.

So it would be one of those Latin Rite congregations or similar so? I wonder how many have requested it?

Women could not attend the Christening of their baby UNLESS they had been Churched beforehand. Mother had no say regarding the timing of the Christening, it was usually a couple of days after the birth of the child, back in the day.

I am getting a spidey feeling about your posts here. There are organisations called Opus Dei, and Family and Life, and the Iona Institute that might suit you better, but that would be preaching to the converted!

FrancieBrady · 27-08-2018 09:43PM

Trasna1 wrote: »

The rite hasn't been commonly offered since Vatican II, but it still exists, you'd have to ask a priest specifically perform it.

Women weren't excluded from a christening because they were somehow defiled, it was because historically a woman wasn't expected (often allowed) to leave home until the lying in period was over. This custom was meant to reduce mother mortality which was high until relatively recently. Churching was a ceremony which marked the end of this postpartum confinement.

That is not how it was seen here by everyone however. I know my own mother subsequently complained about her treatment too. As ever the Irish church wielded that extra little bit of power and anti women bias.

http://www.thejournal.ie/readme/churching-women-after-childbirth-dublin-tenement-1913-1061449-Aug2013/

Aineoil · 27-08-2018 09:46PM

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

My mother remembers having to be "churched" after my birth, presumably that was because she had to have intercourse to conceive me. My Dad didn't have to go through that ritual.

I remember my mother having to be "churched" after the birth of my two younger sisters. (Very early 70's)

I remember the orphanage in my town. I remember X who was in 5th class with me. She didn't spend a lot of time in 5th class as she was always doing jobs for the nuns. What jobs I have no idea to be honest but I do know she had to work in the laundry.

In school we were encouraged not to make friends with girls in the orphanage. But my sister made a good friend with one on "those" girls. We wanted her to come and have what you now call a sleepover in our home. The nuns were totally against it. But my mother stayed firm and she got her way.

I can't remember that girl's name but what I do remember was that she was so, so quiet and barely spoke for the whole weekend.

So I like Pope Francis but all of his apologies can't eradicate my experiences of seemingly holy men and women.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1 · 27-08-2018 09:55PM

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

What country is that in? Certainly not here in Ireland in the CC.

Did you read my post about mothers not being able to attend their child's christening if they had not been "Churched" before the Crhistening ceremony of their child?

The mother was not out for health reasons, as the christening often happened the day after the child was born or even the same day. Hence the bigger role in christenings for God parents then.

Spanish Eyes · 27-08-2018 09:59PM

It is, was and always will be about control by men over women.

Rebut that if anyone has the energy right now. Women are totally excluded from Ministry in the CC. Only good if they have a decent vacuum cleaner and are great at chasing dust and cleaning the church. Oh an are good flower arranging and can do a reading or give out Communion too. Back in yer box after that!

I wish I could not blame those women. But I honestly do now. They will never emerge from the tyranny of the CC if they decide not to be equals.

And it won't ever happen in my lifetime either. The Vatican fears women you see. And the women they fear have left in their droves. What kind of women are left now? Be honest here.

Trasna1 · 27-08-2018 10:03PM

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

So it would be one of those Latin Rite congregations or similar so? I wonder how many have requested it?

Women could not attend the Christening of their baby UNLESS they had been Churched beforehand. Mother had no say regarding the timing of the Christening, it was usually a couple of days after the birth of the child, back in the day.

I am getting a spidey feeling about your posts here. There are organisations called Opus Dei, and Family and Life, and the Iona Institute that might suit you better, but that would be preaching to the converted!

I suppose it would be similar to one of those old latin rites. I personally liken it to the likes of exorcism and other things that priests don't really do any more.

I know a bit about it because many years ago my grandmother mentioned being churched to me and I remember thinking it was a bizarre practice. So I did a bit of reading on it. It may have come to feel like a way of excluding women, but the rite wasn't intended to exclude women.

Other bizarre church teachings pre Vatican II were that once a husband's and wife's family were complete, they should no longer sleep in the same bed.

You should get your Spidey senses checked - just because I'm not following the narrative here doesn't mean you should cast aspersions on me.

Spanish Eyes · 27-08-2018 10:04PM

Mike Loud Embryo wrote: »

The mother was not out for health reasons, as the christening often happened the day after the child was born or even the same day. Hence the bigger role in christenings for God parents then.

Oh dear. I have said all this. But why could a mother not attend the Church for their child's christening unless they had gone through the Churching ritual? Surely if christening was so important it could have been done by the bedside of the lying in mother?

I think it was another way to control women and mothers. Get the kid baptised today, we will church that slut in the next few weeks, keep her out of it all, be grand.

Do you see what I mean here despite my evident vitriol? Fathers could attend everything and do what they liked.

ligerdub · 27-08-2018 10:06PM

murpho999 wrote: »

I wish people would stop making excuses for the poor attendance.

The same issues with road closures, transport and walking were faced in 1979 and over a million turned up.

Do people think that some rain kept 370,000 people away?

Do people really think that the majority of these 370,000 people are infirm (how could they know that?) ?

Just accept that the demand was not there.

Exactly.....they turned up. All they needed to do was walk in....any gate they wanted. They didn't need a ticket, they didn't need to get from point A to point Z on foot or try and make phone calls and online enquiries to ticketmaster to get entry. There were priests who couldn't get their hands on tickets for this one for whatever reason!

There were road closures surely, but nowhere near the same extent as this year, and were much more localised in nature. I think it's safe to say that sort of difference impacts on attendance.

It's fair to comment that that cultural aspects of Ireland back then meant that a lot of people who went in 1979 were dragged along, or went because it was fashionable and probably nothing else to do that day (although I'm sure a large percentage were firm believers). That's just not true these days. Catholicism is certainly not fashionable anymore, and the dogma around religion, in Catholicism at least, is not culturally significant now. There also tends to be a plethora of choice in terms of ways to occupy your time compared to 1979. Back in 1979 the chances are your activities tended more towards requiring you to spend time with other people. In 2018 you have the world at your fingertips. It's not a fair comparison.

I think we all know that the demographic of Catholicism has seen a greater shift to the over 65's and beyond in recent years. These are the people being asked to sort out tickets for an event via ticketmaster. I think it's not unreasonable to assume it's more difficult for this age group to get around. They don't have to be infirm, people were expected to walk distances which could put off a 25 year old, let alone a 65 year old or 75 year old.

I don't think anyone would argue that Catholicism is seeing and will continue to see a decline in relative share of the population over the next few years. The current elderly will pass on, and the generations following them are less and less inclined to be ardent Catholics. I also don't think anyone has or would suggest that we'd see a million people show up for a visit in 2018.

Having said that, despite what many sources like to believe, older people are still people, and have opinions as valid as anyone elses. They, nor anyone else, shouldn't be discouraged from attending events due to over the top restrictions regarding access.

Edgware · 27-08-2018 10:06PM

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

That’s my point exactly.

They still go back to the church for various reasons. This perfect catholic thing doesn’t really exist except for the hardcore believers. The rest just are a la carte as someone said above.

But when the third engine on the four engines plane goes kaput even the atheists takes a chance on a few Hail Marys.

So who's going to see the Pope?

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