Dublin - BusConnects

Stephen15 · 12-06-2018 7:27pm

marno21 wrote: »

They badly need a Barry Kenny type character

Given the large role the NTA have now it is becoming a requirement

Anne Graham doesn't the mustard does she?

devnull · 12-06-2018 7:30pm

Stephen15 wrote: »

Anne Graham doesn't the mustard does she?

With all due respect they both have very different jobs. One is a PR person and the other one is a CEO.

These jobs are not even remotely comparable and require completely different skill-sets.

12-06-2018 7:50pm

Hurrache wrote: »

Details are here, 1-8 in a survey by the RSA across Ireland, a small minority, http://irishcycle.com/2016/05/26/only-1-in-8-cyclists-run-red-lights-says-study-of-60-irish-junctions/

Can't find the other which I think was solely based on Dublin.

Was this the other one? http://road.cc/content/news/157354-survey-4-10-cyclists-dublin-still-jumping-red-lights-despite-new-penalty

A Sunday Times (link is external) survey of nearly 500 cyclists passing through four main junctions in central Dublin last week found 177 breaking the traffic law.

One of the junctions even has a permanent police presence, as it is by Leinster House on Kildare Street.

Mike McKillen, chairman of the lobby group Cyclist.ie said: “We do our own surveys, but we also track every bus, coach, taxi, private car, van driver and motorcyclist who breaks a red light.

“All road users are breaking red lights, though of course the percentage of cyclists who do is higher — but I don’t think I’ve ever seen it as high as four in every ten.

The survey you linked is interesting, I wonder how the rate can be just 5% in Cork and yet by 1000% higher in Limerick?

(Cyclists running red lights = annoyance, vehicles running red lights = life threatening - I just don't like people throwing out statistics that muddy the waters)

bk · 12-06-2018 8:15pm

I saw a similar survey done in Amsterdam where there was a similar perception of cyclists breaking red lights.

They found 93% didn't break lights, 6% turned right on a red (something that is legal in Paris and some other countries), only 1% cycled right through the junction (really dangerous) and they were all bike couriers.

After the survey they started allowing the turn right at red is safe too do so at many junctions there.

ncounties · 12-06-2018 8:26pm

bk wrote: »

I saw a similar survey done in Amsterdam where there was a similar perception of cyclists breaking red lights.

They found 93% didn't break lights, 6% turned right on a red (something that is legal in Paris and some other countries), only 1% cycled right through the junction (really dangerous) and they were all bike couriers.

After the survey they started allowing the turn right at red is safe too do so at many junctions there.

Let´s have a boards get together here (https://goo.gl/maps/ScJq29MSUeu) and we can count them ourselves...

marno21 · 12-06-2018 9:21pm

Stephen15 wrote: »

Anne Graham doesn't the mustard does she?

Adding to what devnull said, there were many features on the radio today. Noel Rock was on Newstalk Breakfast, Mannix Flynn was on Pat Kenny, Paul Melia was on Today with SOR, Anne Graham was on RTE Radio 1 News at One, Anne Graham was on the Last Word, and whatever else was on that I missed.

One PR person to cover all of these would be best. I gave 5 media engagements above, that would be a large addition to the CEO of a national transport group. If IE are big enough to have a PR person when they have a smaller and ever lessening portfolio of responsibilities then it would make sense for the NTA to have same.

Sam Russell · 12-06-2018 9:33pm

Mod: Can we keep this thread about the infrastructure elements of Bus Connects, rather than driver and cyclist behaviour. It is not relevant. Dublin needs buses to go faster and to have priority, so that journey times are halved from the current crawl.

Any off topic stuff and nonsense will be deleted.

loyatemu · 12-06-2018 9:52pm

Some FG TD on the news complaining that people hadn't been consulted...

THIS IS THE START OF THE CONSULTATION YOU SPANNER!

how can they put it out for consultation without publishing high level plans and discussing the possibility of CPOs - what are they supposed to do, go to every one of the 1300 houses individually before publishing anything?

questionmark? · 12-06-2018 10:10pm

loyatemu wrote: »

Some FG TD on the news complaining that people hadn't been consulted...

THIS IS THE START OF THE CONSULTATION YOU SPANNER!

how can they put it out for consultation without publishing high level plans and discussing the possibility of CPOs - what are they supposed to do, go to every one of the 1300 houses individually before publishing anything?

Obtain permission from all 1300 households and ensure they put a notice up in the local parish hall in case anyone outside those houses wants to complain before a consultation!

It's very frustrating that something that is required only gets reported as a negative. Sick of nimbys that can't see the bigger picture in this country.

Zebra3 · 12-06-2018 10:48pm

To think that Rock is actually a FG TD, and that these positive changes for the city and the people are being pushed by HIS party, and yet he’s straight out with the whinging.

Let me guess, he just slated the NTA, but not his own party. Some hypocrite. :rolleyes:

Varta · 12-06-2018 11:02pm

There is no need for most of the proposed infrastructure. Simply reduce the price of public transport, it is ridiculously expensive. Charge just one euro per journey and more people will use it, therefore there will be less cars on the road. If there are less cars on the road the buses will move quicker. Therefore people will see that buses move quickly and they are cheap to use and will use them. Thus even less cars on the road. More people will use public transport and so on. Public transport is too expensive and these proposed changes will not fix that or anything else.

marno21 · 12-06-2018 11:04pm

Does Matt Cooper live near the proposed Rathfarnham QBC around Rathmines? He got very defensive about the proposed changes here on Today FM earlier.

marno21 · 13-06-2018 1:33am

More positive reporting from the Irish Times regarding loss of value of people's homes.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/value-of-homes-hit-by-bus-corridor-plan-could-drop-by-up-to-25-1.3528281

Qrt · 13-06-2018 1:47am

marno21 wrote: »

More positive reporting from the Irish Times regarding loss of value of people's homes.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/value-of-homes-hit-by-bus-corridor-plan-could-drop-by-up-to-25-1.3528281

...followed by this very different headline in the "related" section: https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/editorial/the-irish-times-view-on-dublin-s-new-bus-routes-a-step-in-the-right-direction-1.3528179?mode=amp

Dardania · 13-06-2018 5:12am

Just putting aside the media perception, and the physical works that will be needed to implement for a moment - what do people think of the routes shown? Do they make sense from a network perspective?

I noticed something earlier about the integrated ticketing etc

Kevtherev1 · 13-06-2018 9:15am

marno21 wrote: »

Does Matt Cooper live near the proposed Rathfarnham QBC around Rathmines? He got very defensive about the proposed changes here on Today FM earlier.

Correct... matt cooper lives in one of the victorian houses on Cowper Road. Across from the 140 bus stop. One of them.

cgcsb · 13-06-2018 10:12am

It seems that the south west of the City is to benefit the most. The George's st-Rathfarnham road seems to show the most significant journey time improvements. Long overdue. I notice they've said nothing on City Centre arrangements, I wonder why that is?

CatInABox · 13-06-2018 10:34am

cgcsb wrote: »

It seems that the south west of the City is to benefit the most. The George's st-Rathfarnham road seems to show the most significant journey time improvements. Long overdue. I notice they've said nothing on City Centre arrangements, I wonder why that is?

They'd probably say that it's beyond the scope of a project designed to deal with Radial and Orbital routes.

In truth, dealing with the objections from both the city centre and the above routes would probably kill any project.

They do have some city centre stuff in there though, just around the quays, and the new bridge down near the East Link toll bridge.

Bray Head · 13-06-2018 10:37am

cgcsb wrote: »

I notice they've said nothing on City Centre arrangements, I wonder why that is?

It's probably due to the current uncertainty regarding the pedestrianisation of College Green.

Making more of the city centre bus only is problematic due to the presence of privately-owned car parks. Long-run, CPO-ing some of them will have to be part of the solution.

tobsey · 13-06-2018 10:39am

Varta wrote: »

There is no need for most of the proposed infrastructure. Simply reduce the price of public transport, it is ridiculously expensive. Charge just one euro per journey and more people will use it, therefore there will be less cars on the road. If there are less cars on the road the buses will move quicker. Therefore people will see that buses move quickly and they are cheap to use and will use them. Thus even less cars on the road. More people will use public transport and so on. Public transport is too expensive and these proposed changes will not fix that or anything else.

If people switch from cars to buses they will just be replaced by other cars who will switch their route from busier routes to these now quieter ones. The only thing we can do is ensure that the buses get free movement and let the cars wait alongside.

LXFlyer · 13-06-2018 10:42am

cgcsb wrote: »

It seems that the south west of the City is to benefit the most. The George's st-Rathfarnham road seems to show the most significant journey time improvements. Long overdue. I notice they've said nothing on City Centre arrangements, I wonder why that is?

This is just a high level overview of the 16 radial corridors.

The city centre will be dealt with, to a degree, when the Jarrett Walker bus route network review due to be published in July as that is predicated on the College Green/Dame St axis being removed.

As for the published plan, I’ll believe that journey time on the Rathfarnham route when pigs fly.

Bray Head · 13-06-2018 10:43am

I wouldn't use Dublin Bus tomorrow if fares were abolished.

I'd happily pay double if there were significant improvements in punctuality, comfort and speed. Lots of free travel holders use their cars because DB is slow and unreliable.

roadmaster · 13-06-2018 10:44am

Independent.ie are saying residents could be getting €25k per square meter. Would they get that much?

loyatemu · 13-06-2018 11:21am

roadmaster wrote: »

Independent.ie are saying residents could be getting €25k per square meter. Would they get that much?

that sounds a lot - if it was true you could expect most objections to disappear but it seems excessive.

cgcsb · 13-06-2018 11:26am

LXFlyer wrote: »

This is just a high level overview of the 16 radial corridors.

The city centre will be dealt with, to a degree, when the Jarrett Walker bus route network review due to be published in July as that is predicated on the College Green/Dame St axis being removed.

As for the published plan, I’ll believe that journey time on the Rathfarnham route when pigs fly.

It proposes radial journeys to Rathfarnham would be some of the fastest in Dublin, it's hard to imagine now but if the money is spent and the moaners ignored, there isn't any real reason why not.

cgcsb · 13-06-2018 11:30am

The proposal to ban cars on Prussia Street and Cabra road, except for local access, access to Prussia st shopping centre and the Lidl is interesting. Like how exactly would that be enforced? There also needs to be a lot of work on Stoneybatter it's self. The inbound buslane is basically just a car park at all times and parking at bus stops is a real nuisance around here, not to mention that the outbound cycling lane is again just a car park.

CatInABox · 13-06-2018 11:31am

I wonder how they're planning on building them. Working on all of them at the same time would be traffic suicide, so which ones should get priority?

Even getting one route up and running as planned will show that it has massive benefits for all those living along the routes, Anne act as an advertisement for all the others.

LXFlyer · 13-06-2018 11:34am

cgcsb wrote: »

It proposes radial journeys to Rathfarnham would be some of the fastest in Dublin, it's hard to imagine now but if the monay is spent and the moaners ignored, there isn't any real reason why not.

Really?

It and the Templeogue QBC have the slowest bus speeds in the city.

There is no way that such a change in peak journey times will ever be achieved on that route - it’s cloud cuckoo land.

Short of razing the heart of Terenure, Rathgar and Rathmines villages to the ground it’s frankly impossible.

I just don’t see it happening - “the moaners” as you refer to them will bog any CPO down in the courts for years. It’s a half-baked solution for an area of the city that is being ignored in terms of high capacity rail solutions.

cgcsb · 13-06-2018 11:38am

CatInABox wrote: »

I wonder how they're planning on building them. Working on all of them at the same time would be traffic suicide, so which ones should get priority?

Even getting one route up and running as planned will show that it has massive benefits for all those living along the routes, Anne act as an advertisement for all the others.

They could do small sections of each route at the same time, and over time there'd be improvements to journey times across the board and you'd be spreading the burden of the construction work fairly evenly. Some routes need a lot of work and others hardly need any. Clongriffen to Amien St for example is pretty much already in existence with only one pinch point to be removed.

cgcsb · 13-06-2018 11:42am

LXFlyer wrote: »

Really?

It and the Templeogue QBC have the slowest bus speeds in the city.

There is no way that such a change in peak journey times will ever be achieved on that route - it’s cloud cuckoo land.

Short of razing the heart of Terenure, Rathgar and Rathmines villages to the ground it’s frankly impossible.

I just don’t see it happening - “the moaners” as you refer to them will bog any CPO down in the courts for years. It’s a half-baked solution for an area of the city that is being ignored in terms of high capacity rail solutions.

The urban villages like Rathmines have been proposed as being sort of bus gates with only one way private traffic and the rest of the streets used for sustainable modes. It can be done, it just means very severe disruption to car commuters.

I think the City Centre is the most crucial element, it is the biggest bottleneck and the south-west corridor is the second biggest challenge. Overall if busconnects is fully implemented the car commuter will be almost completely squeezed out.

Podge_irl · 13-06-2018 11:44am

LXFlyer wrote: »

I just don’t see it happening - “the moaners” as you refer to them will bog any CPO down in the courts for years. It’s a half-baked solution for an area of the city that is being ignored in terms of high capacity rail solutions.

These aren't the first CPOs in the history of the state.

It is a solution that can be delivered significantly more quickly and more cheaply than any rail alternative. Why is it half-baked? The core concept of seamless bus lanes into the city seems to make perfect sense.

cgcsb · 13-06-2018 11:50am

I think there should be a metro from Tallaght to Clongriffen, but we are many years from that, bus connects can deliver a tremendous improvement by 2022 and really regardless of whether there is a metro or not, it should be done anyway. The Swords and Ballymun roads will benefit from bus connects despite the fact they'll be served by metro anyway. They do two different jobs.

LXFlyer · 13-06-2018 12:03pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

These aren't the first CPOs in the history of the state.

It is a solution that can be delivered significantly more quickly and more cheaply than any rail alternative. Why is it half-baked? The core concept of seamless bus lanes into the city seems to make perfect sense.

Can I ask you how familiar you (and indeed cgsb) are with those corridors and the current bus performance and general traffic on them?

If you were I think you might realise the problems.

I just cannot see the scale of general traffic re-routing away from these routes happening (such as closing Templeogue Road) - they have been suggested that on and off for 25 years and nothing has ever happened due to public opposition.

With local and (possibly) general elections being held next year this will become a real hot potato.

It won’t be seamless bus lanes - that’s impossible without demolishing the core of the villages mentioned above.

With the best will in the world there is only one solution for that area and that is an underground.

I’m passionately in favour of promoting public transport, but I think that in this situation the wrong option is being taken.

It’s tinkering rather than providing the solution that is actually needed.

Podge_irl · 13-06-2018 12:07pm

LXFlyer wrote: »

Can I ask you how familiar you (and indeed cgsb) are with those corridors and the current bus performance and general traffic on them?

Not overly familiar with the southside ones.

A single underground line is not going to solve all the problems. More people will still be transported by bus and measures will still need to be implemented to remove more cars and increase efficiency of bus services. This is not instead of an underground, it will be needed either way.

I understand the skepticism that it will actually happen, but I think the tide is most definitely turning against private motorists and that change will only accelerate.

LXFlyer · 13-06-2018 12:19pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

Not overly familiar with the southside ones.

A single underground line is not going to solve all the problems. More people will still be transported by bus and measures will still need to be implemented to remove more cars and increase efficiency of bus services. This is not instead of an underground, it will be needed either way.

I understand the skepticism that it will actually happen, but I think the tide is most definitely turning against private motorists and that change will only accelerate.

I kinda guessed that. :-)

Maybe do what I regularly do and take random evening peak trips across the network and you’ll get a good feel of the problems faced by the bus service.

It’s the sheer scale of the problems faced in that south central area that make me doubt how realistic those plans are, combined with the lack of any plans for Terenure-Harold’s X at all, the fact that the scale of the potential CPO activity in the area needs to be huge (and very costly), and that potential road closures will lead to gridlock on other routes that makes me doubt the potential of these plans.

I am absolutely convinced that the plans and speed improvements won’t happen in the shape the NTA are indicating in this specific area, and frankly that we won’t see in my lifetime any rail based solution that is needed in the area.

vandriver · 13-06-2018 12:39pm

Kevtherev1 wrote: »

Correct... matt cooper lives in one of the victorian houses on Cowper Road. Across from the 140 bus stop. One of them.

No really, you're not correct.
Even when he did live on Cowper Rd, it wasn't in a victorian house.
He lives elsewhere in Rathmines now.

Bray Head · 13-06-2018 12:50pm

LXFlyer wrote: »

It’s the sheer scale of the problems faced in that south central area that make me doubt how realistic those plans are, combined with the lack of any plans for Terenure-Harold’s X at all, the fact that the scale of the potential CPO activity in the area needs to be huge (and very costly), and that potential road closures will lead to gridlock on other routes that makes me doubt the potential of these plans.

The stretch of the Harold's Cross Road from the park through to Terenure Village is already extremely tight.

There is very little that CPO-ing of front gardens could achieve to consistently dedicate more space to bus lanes. You would have to demolish whole rows of buildings which is not practical.

I think they've taken the option of sending the bus traffic through Rathmines and Kimmage.

Terenure to Harold's Cross might become car only.

Qrt · 13-06-2018 12:55pm

With regards to the bottlenecks, I assume there will be a bus priority system where bus lanes must merge with general traffic. As in perhaps a stop line for general traffic before the lane merger with a separate traffic signal, stopping general traffic when a bus approaches in order to give the bus a right of way.

LXFlyer · 13-06-2018 12:56pm

Bray Head wrote: »

The stretch of the Harold's Cross Road from the park through to Terenure Village is already extremely tight.

There is very little that CPO-ing of front gardens could achieve to consistently dedicate more space to bus lanes. You would have to demolish whole rows of buildings which is not practical.

I think they've taken the option of sending the bus traffic through Rathmines and Kimmage.

Terenure to Harold's Cross might become car only.

Agreed re the space constraints, but Terenure, Rathgar and Rathmines villages all face them too!

So what happens the (not insignificant) numbers of bus users along there?

Grin and bear it or face a much longer walk to their buses?

I’m really highlighting the fact that this still really doesn’t fundamentally solve the problems that south central area faces that only an underground rail solution will.

Bray Head · 13-06-2018 2:12pm

LXFlyer wrote: »

Agreed re the space constraints, but Terenure, Rathgar and Rathmines villages all face them too!

So what happens the (not insignificant) numbers of bus users along there?

Grin and bear it or face a much longer walk to their buses?

Yes. A walk to a high-frequency reliable route is much better than an unreliable one on your doorstep.

Kenilworth Cross is about an 8-minute walk to the Rathgar Road or a 6-minute walk to the Kimmage Road Lower.

That's worth it if the routes on these corridors become much quicker and more punctual.

LXFlyer · 13-06-2018 2:24pm

Bray Head wrote: »

Yes. A walk to a high-frequency reliable route is much better than an unreliable one on your doorstep.

Kenilworth Cross is about an 8-minute walk to the Rathgar Road or a 6-minute walk to the Kimmage Road Lower.

That's worth it if the routes on these corridors become much quicker and more punctual.

And do use those corridors yourself can I ask?

Bray Head · 13-06-2018 2:25pm

No. I don't use Dublin Bus ever because it is slow and unreliable. I prefer to cycle.

LXFlyer · 13-06-2018 2:33pm

Bray Head wrote: »

No. I don't use Dublin Bus ever because it is slow and unreliable. I prefer to cycle.

It’s a bit rich then to be telling people what’s best for them to be honest, when you don’t personally use the service in question.

Large numbers of people use the bus service along that section and blindly telling them it’s better to walk a further 8 minutes is somewhat patronising being honest about it.

It does seem to me that most posters here really don’t understand the issues facing the area and seem happy to post broad generalisations about it which don’t deal with the specific issues it faces.

Bray Head · 13-06-2018 2:42pm

I have used Dublin Bus in the past but have largely given up. I would happily use them if the service was quicker and more reliable. So would other cyclists I know as well as a few motorists and walkers.

Greater frequency and reliability is the whole point of Bus Connects. It will involve hard choices to inconvenience some people for the sake of a much better overall system. Making an omelette involves breaking some eggs.

trickybicky · 13-06-2018 2:53pm

How do they plan on removing the bottleneck of the Scherzer bridges on North Wall quay, it looks like this route is part of the Bus Connect plan

https://www.busconnects.ie/media/1186/bus-connects-cbc-route-maps-web_16.pdf

LXFlyer · 13-06-2018 3:05pm

Bray Head wrote: »

I have used Dublin Bus in the past but have largely given up. I would happily use them if the service was quicker and more reliable. So would other cyclists I know as well as a few motorists and walkers.

Greater frequency and reliability is the whole point of Bus Connects. It will involve hard choices to inconvenience some people for the sake of a much better overall system. Making an omelette involves breaking some eggs.

You’re still going to end up with frankly a half assed solution for that area. No one has put forward a convincing argument that says this will solve the problems it faces.

As I said above, I don’t see the Kimmage Rd Lower and Templeogue road closures/restrictions as being politically acceptable (whether I agree with them or not). Add to that, the continued pinch points and CPOs, frankly it’s papering the cracks rather than actually coming up with a proper solution which is a high capacity reliable metro.

loyatemu · 13-06-2018 3:31pm

trickybicky wrote: »

How do they plan on removing the bottleneck of the Scherzer bridges on North Wall quay, it looks like this route is part of the Bus Connect plan

https://www.busconnects.ie/media/1186/bus-connects-cbc-route-maps-web_16.pdf

they can't remove them, perhaps they could put bus priority lights on them? (in general I think they could do with more intelligent signalling priority for buses in many places around the city)

LeinsterDub · 13-06-2018 4:24pm

LXFlyer wrote: »

You’re still going to end up with frankly a half assed solution for that area. No one has put forward a convincing argument that says this will solve the problems it faces.

As I said above, I don’t see the Kimmage Rd Lower and Templeogue road closures/restrictions as being politically acceptable (whether I agree with them or not). Add to that, the continued pinch points and CPOs, frankly it’s papering the cracks rather than actually coming up with a proper solution which is a high capacity reliable metro.

Are you willing to sit in traffic for 30 + years while your wait for this metro?

LXFlyer · 13-06-2018 4:47pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Are you willing to sit in traffic for 30 + years while your wait for this metro?

I’m highlighting the fact that the south central area is being treated abysmally under the investment proposals.

As I don’t personally see the BusConnects plans having that much effect on journey times in that area (due to the reasons I’ve outlined), and that they will end up being significantly watered down, people are going to be stuck in traffic regardless, which is why I think that area is being shafted.

You’re being rather politically naive if you think otherwise.

BonnieSituation · 13-06-2018 5:19pm

devnull wrote: »

Does it really surprise you though?

You are kidding yourself if you think that people are just going to sit up and that they will accept that things need to change for them to get better. You have some people who think that things cannot be better as they are already fine as they know nothing better as well.

Then you have the crowd who say that there is no way they should lose lanes on their roads when there is such poor public transport that it will make the traffic so much worse with no alternative. They seem to believe that all that will change is that there will be less road space for cars and public transport will be as bad as it is now.

People don't like change and this is a pretty big one.

Absolutely doesn't surprise me. But I always live in hope that perhaps the next project will show maturity of discussion. But again foiled by the Irish ability to be insular and backward and selfish.

I had a quick breeze through some of the docs yesterday listening to Noel Rock.

What's being proposed is Amsterdam/Copenhagen modal segregation. Now call me crazy, if people knew that maybe they would be more amenable to the whole concept.

But Joe Public isn't going to read those docs but I bet he remembers what Amsterdam is like and I bet he's waxed lyrical about how Dublin should be the same.

This is is an easy sell like metrolink, you just need the right sales person.

I'll do it.

Dublin - BusConnects

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