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Dublin - BusConnects

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  • I think announcing all the routes at the same time was a mistake. Announce one route with a very firm implementation plan. Make that a success and then announce a second tranche of routes having

    a) Successfully navigated the CPO process

    &

    b) Having hard evidence to show the meaningful difference a busconnects route makes to social welfare


    As other posters have already said, announcing the whole plan seems like yet another pointless PR exercise that will not be matched by action.




  • LXFlyer wrote: »
    To be fair Marno21, the reality is that the required CPO activity is going to be the major political issue here as I’ve warned all along. It’s one thing saying you’re going to spend €2 billion on the bus network, but it’s a whole different ball game when it involves mass purchase of private property, particularly front gardens! This element would have gone over most people’s heads when the project was launched originally.

    It’s on a much greater scale than Metrolink and I can see this dragging on through the courts for some time.

    They need to get the politicians on side for this, otherwise this will end up being scaled back to more half measures.

    If I’m honest, despite being pro-public transport all of my life, I think that when the reality of losing direct bus services for their journey dawns on people, and combined with this scale of CPO work, this project is going to end up being mired in objections and the courts and many of the proposals canned.

    The outer orbital elements have probably the best chance of success given that most of the routes are wide enough as it is.

    Yes, but what I was saying is that this is the usual racket we hear whenever plans are published for any infrastructure project in this country. The media reporting on the evil NTA rubbing their hands with glee at the though of robbing the gardens of 1,300 homes. The same media will be the first to report on public transport issues in Dublin.

    See here again: https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/new-bus-routes-a-repeat-of-na-fianna-style-mistake-says-rock-1.3527694

    A lot of positive reaction in the above article but the headline references a negative contribution - from Noel Rock giving out that homeowners weren't told about this, when this is the first time it has been published, in any shape or form and likely individual CPOs haven't been decided upon yet - this is a public consultation which he doesn't understand, the plans are not finalised yet and nobody will be CPOd - the public even have a chance to respond with whatever they wish - this isn't China or Russia, this is a fairly transparent process.

    Once again the media showing their complicity in the lack of infrastructure development in Ireland by right from the outset portraying all development as bad and creating an atmosphere of fear around the project. They are as much to blame, if not more to blame, than the political system.




  • Bray Head wrote: »
    Judging by the state of a lot of front gardens (think Drumcondra or Harold's X) a lot of housing along these routes is already in the private rented sector.

    A lot of landlords will be quite happy with a payout and tenants are unlikely to be motivated objectors.

    Exactly. I got the 16 from the airport a few Sundays ago, and Drumcondra Rd (if that's the name, the road with Drumcondra station on it) was clearly full of rental accomodation. A lot of early/mid-20s Portuguese-speakers got on the bus too, reiterating the point.




  • marno21 wrote: »
    LXFlyer wrote: »
    To be fair Marno21, the reality is that the required CPO activity is going to be the major political issue here as I’ve warned all along. It’s one thing saying you’re going to spend €2 billion on the bus network, but it’s a whole different ball game when it involves mass purchase of private property, particularly front gardens! This element would have gone over most people’s heads when the project was launched originally.

    It’s on a much greater scale than Metrolink and I can see this dragging on through the courts for some time.

    They need to get the politicians on side for this, otherwise this will end up being scaled back to more half measures.

    If I’m honest, despite being pro-public transport all of my life, I think that when the reality of losing direct bus services for their journey dawns on people, and combined with this scale of CPO work, this project is going to end up being mired in objections and the courts and many of the proposals canned.

    The outer orbital elements have probably the best chance of success given that most of the routes are wide enough as it is.

    Yes, but what I was saying is that this is the usual racket we hear whenever plans are published for any infrastructure project in this country. The media reporting on the evil NTA rubbing their hands with glee at the though of robbing the gardens of 1,300 homes. The same media will be the first to report on public transport issues in Dublin.

    See here again: https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/new-bus-routes-a-repeat-of-na-fianna-style-mistake-says-rock-1.3527694

    A lot of positive reaction in the above article but the headline references a negative contribution - from Noel Rock giving out that homeowners weren't told about this, when this is the first time it has been published, in any shape or form and likely individual CPOs haven't been decided upon yet - this is a public consultation which he doesn't understand, the plans are not finalised yet and nobody will be CPOd - the public even have a chance to respond with whatever they wish - this isn't China or Russia, this is a fairly transparent process.

    Once again the media showing their complicity in the lack of infrastructure development in Ireland by right from the outset portraying all development as bad and creating an atmosphere of fear around the project. They are as much to blame, if not more to blame, than the political system.
    Very fair point regarding negative media reporting - it must be against their editorial guidelines surely?

    Regarding setting an example and espousing the benefits, would the 46A route partially perform that function?




  • marno21 wrote: »
    Yes, but what I was saying is that this is the usual racket we hear whenever plans are published for any infrastructure project in this country. The media reporting on the evil NTA rubbing their hands with glee at the though of robbing the gardens of 1,300 homes. The same media will be the first to report on public transport issues in Dublin.

    See here again: https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/new-bus-routes-a-repeat-of-na-fianna-style-mistake-says-rock-1.3527694

    A lot of positive reaction in the above article but the headline references a negative contribution - from Noel Rock giving out that homeowners weren't told about this, when this is the first time it has been published, in any shape or form and likely individual CPOs haven't been decided upon yet - this is a public consultation which he doesn't understand, the plans are not finalised yet and nobody will be CPOd - the public even have a chance to respond with whatever they wish - this isn't China or Russia, this is a fairly transparent process.

    Once again the media showing their complicity in the lack of infrastructure development in Ireland by right from the outset portraying all development as bad and creating an atmosphere of fear around the project. They are as much to blame, if not more to blame, than the political system.

    Absolutely agree but I really do fear that this project will end up being bastardised unless politicians get behind it.

    Totally agree about Noel Rock and Mannix Flynn - utter nonsense to expect detail at this stage when we are at a high level launch.


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  • LXFlyer wrote: »
    To be fair Marno21, the reality is that the required CPO activity is going to be the major political issue here as I’ve warned all along. It’s one thing saying you’re going to spend €2 billion on the bus network, but it’s a whole different ball game when it involves mass purchase of private property, particularly front gardens! This element would have gone over most people’s heads when the project was launched originally.

    It’s on a much greater scale than Metrolink and I can see this dragging on through the courts for some time.

    They need to get the politicians on side for this, otherwise this will end up being scaled back to more half measures.

    If I’m honest, despite being pro-public transport all of my life, I think that when the reality of losing direct bus services for their journey dawns on people, and combined with this scale of CPO work, this project is going to end up being mired in objections and the courts and many of the proposals canned.

    The outer orbital elements have probably the best chance of success given that most of the routes are wide enough as it is.

    What's the alternative though? More piecemeal bits that don't really attract people out of their cars? Waiting on DU (which still won't help people in SW Dublin)?

    It will be difficult but it has to be done, not helped by Noel Rock jumping in (again) hyping fake news about additional land-take.




  • Mannix Flynn was on Newstalk this morning on BusConnects. A new level of drivel.

    Dublin City is chock a block so this won't work
    This will lead to routes being sold off to private bus operators
    The usual anti NTA guff

    https://www.newstalk.com/listen_back/13240/45470/12th_June_2018_-_The_Pat_Kenny_Show_Part_2/




  • What's the alternative though? More piecemeal bits that don't really attract people out of their cars? Waiting on DU (which still won't help people in SW Dublin)?

    It will be difficult but it has to be done, not helped by Noel Rock jumping in (again) hyping fake news about additional land-take.

    Underground is ultimately the only realistic option for the south central corridors.

    Massive CPO activity as this requires is likely to be stuck in the courts for years to come.

    This will in all likelihood end up being implemented piecemeal unfortunately.

    With local (and possibly general) elections in 2019 this is going to be difficult to force through.




  • marno21 wrote: »
    Mannix Flynn was on Newstalk this morning on BusConnects. A new level of drivel.

    Dublin City is chock a block so this won't work
    This will lead to routes being sold off to private bus operators
    The usual anti NTA guff

    https://www.newstalk.com/listen_back/13240/45470/12th_June_2018_-_The_Pat_Kenny_Show_Part_2/

    Scary stuff. Utter populist bunkum.




  • LXFlyer wrote: »
    Underground is ultimately the only realistic option for the south central corridors.

    Any SW tunnel will also require lots of CPO's (for stations, likely whole homes and not just gardens) and years of massive disruption as it is built.

    Of course I think that is a cost well worth it. But I think we need to start realising that underground doesn't come without disruption, CPO's and objections either.


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  • bk wrote: »
    Any SW tunnel will also require lots of CPO's (for stations, likely whole homes and not just gardens) and years of massive disruption as it is built.

    Of course I think that is a cost well worth it. But I think we need to start realising that underground doesn't come without disruption, CPO's and objections either.

    It does of course come with all of those negatives (I never suggested otherwise), but the benefits are massive by comparison.

    I simply do not see the proposed road closures to general traffic actually happening in the south central areas - politically it’s a massive political time bomb. Therefore i see this as really just tinkering around the edges realistically.

    Sorry for being unduly negative, but this has massive political ramifications.




  • Deedsie wrote: »
    How likely/unlikely is the route from clondalkin to Drimnagh to meet serious objection? Are any of the routes relatively straightforward or are they all contentious?

    Less likely than others I would imagine it will be the richer areas that will object. People living in council houses won't kick up a fuss unless they remove buses from their doorstep the people that will object will be the ones living in the more leafy suburbs.




  • I was in town today a lot of dangerous behaviour from cyclists between buses, trams and cars. Saw one guy on a delivery bike trying to squeeze between the Luas and the kerb on College Green and another woman weaving between cars and buses on Nassau St. before preceeding to cycle up the blind spot of a bus pulling out. Alsò bus stops on Nassau Street were being blocked by private coaches.




  • Stephen15 wrote: »
    I was in town today a lot of dangerous behaviour from cyclists between buses, trams and cars. Saw one guy on a delivery bike trying to squeeze between the Luas and the kerb on College Green and another woman weaving between cars and buses on Nassau St. before preceeding to cycle up the blind spot of a bus pulling out. Alsò bus stops on Nassau Street were being blocked by private coaches.

    What are you highlighting? The lack of infrastructure for cyclists, or the dangerous situations they are put in as a result?

    There is only one criticism I have of cyclists, they rarely stop for traffic lights.




  • ncounties wrote: »
    What are you highlighting? The lack of infrastructure for cyclists, or the dangerous situations they are put in as a result?

    There is only one criticism I have of cyclists, they rarely stop for traffic lights.

    I agree that there is a bad cycling infrastructructure in this city but I do feel cyclists take a lot of risks and behave dangerously. What I also don't like if in the unfortunate event a cyclist was hit it would always be the car or bus driver that would be at fault despite the fact the cyclist is putting themselves under unesscary risk.




  • Stephen15 wrote: »
    Alsò bus stops on Nassau Street were being blocked by private coaches.

    This is a serious problem. Coaches stop, disgorge their tourists and then park for the next hour. They should be required to move as soon as they are empty, and should be restricted to 'Coach stops', far from the bus stops.

    Bus passengers, waiting, are unable to see their bus approaching and have to make risky sorties into the road to see and hail their bus.




  • Stephen15 wrote: »
    I agree that there is a bad cycling infrastructructure in this city but I do feel cyclists take a lot of risks and behave dangerously. What I also don't like if in the unfortunate event a cyclist was hit it would always be the car or bus driver that would be at fault despite the fact the cyclist is putting themselves under unesscary risk.

    Those type of laws don't exist anywhere in the world. Some Dutch TD-equivalent made merely a proposal for something like that in the late 90s-early 00s and I'm fairly sure it was dismissed straight away.




  • This is a serious problem. Coaches stop, disgorge their tourists and then park for the next hour. They should be required to move as soon as they are empty, and should be restricted to 'Coach stops', far from the bus stops.

    Bus passengers, waiting, are unable to see their bus approaching and have to make risky sorties into the road to see and hail their bus.

    This bus happened to be picking up passengers but it was blocking a 4 from getting in at it's stop




  • This is a serious problem. Coaches stop, disgorge their tourists and then park for the next hour. They should be required to move as soon as they are empty, and should be restricted to 'Coach stops', far from the bus stops.

    Bus passengers, waiting, are unable to see their bus approaching and have to make risky sorties into the road to see and hail their bus.

    The lack of sufficient coach parking for tour coaches and the lack of a proper second bus station with facilities for interurban coaches is a real problem.

    This causes serious risks for city bus users on Nassau St, College Green and Westmoreland St every day, and frankly is an accident waiting to happen.

    Part of BusConnects should be a safety audit of every stop in the city (including the frequency of stops and culling where appropriate).




  • Noel Rock used NIMFY on his last word chat after Anne Graham uhmmed her way through an explanation of Busconnects.

    He reads Boards it seems.

    ---

    Anyway, I'm still coming off a frustration headache after listening to the absolute bollox that was spouted.

    If this is the height of political engagement, and he's the only one I've seen today well then you can forget about this plan.

    ---

    Another nail in my Dublin coffin. Place is eating itself and any positive moves are being shut down from the beginning.

    Eugh.


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  • ncounties wrote: »
    There is only one criticism I have of cyclists, they rarely stop for traffic lights.

    And it's wrong, it's been shown they obey traffic lights, within Dublin, more than motorists do.




  • LXFlyer wrote: »
    The lack of sufficient coach parking for tour coaches and the lack of a proper second bus station with facilities for interurban coaches is a real problem.

    This causes serious risks for city bus users on Nassau St, College Green and Westmoreland St every day, and frankly is an accident waiting to happen.

    Part of BusConnects should be a safety audit of every stop in the city (including the frequency of stops and culling where appropriate).

    There is but they won't use it as it's only open from 7-7

    https://www.dublininquirer.com/2018/05/01/use-of-new-e1-7-million-coach-park-negligible-says-council-official/




  • Another nail in my Dublin coffin. Place is eating itself and any positive moves are being shut down from the beginning.

    Eugh.

    Does it really surprise you though?

    You are kidding yourself if you think that people are just going to sit up and that they will accept that things need to change for them to get better. You have some people who think that things cannot be better as they are already fine as they know nothing better as well.

    Then you have the crowd who say that there is no way they should lose lanes on their roads when there is such poor public transport that it will make the traffic so much worse with no alternative. They seem to believe that all that will change is that there will be less road space for cars and public transport will be as bad as it is now.

    People don't like change and this is a pretty big one.




  • Hurrache wrote: »
    And it's wrong, it's been shown they obey traffic lights, within Dublin, more than motorists do.

    As a proportion or as an absolute number? (or both!)




  • As a proportion or as an absolute number? (or both!)

    Details are here, 1-8 in a survey by the RSA across Ireland, a small minority, http://irishcycle.com/2016/05/26/only-1-in-8-cyclists-run-red-lights-says-study-of-60-irish-junctions/

    Can't find the other which I think was solely based on Dublin.




  • Stephen15 wrote: »

    I’m talking about locations to load/unload - not layover facilities (which should be free to use in any case). There isn’t sufficient provision for tour coaches to load/unload in the city centre without disrupting the city bus service.

    Having interurban coach services loading and unloading on-street isn’t right either - we badly need a second independently managed bus station with proper facilities for them.




  • Noel Rock used NIMFY on his last word chat after Anne Graham uhmmed her way through an explanation of Busconnects.

    He reads Boards it seems.

    ---

    Anyway, I'm still coming off a frustration headache after listening to the absolute bollox that was spouted.

    If this is the height of political engagement, and he's the only one I've seen today well then you can forget about this plan.

    ---

    Another nail in my Dublin coffin. Place is eating itself and any positive moves are being shut down from the beginning.

    Eugh.

    The NTA frankly are appalling at promoting the positive impact of this and other schemes within the media - they don’t have any good PR people and it is showing.

    Again and again idiotic comments by opponents of the various schemes or uninformed politicians get away unchallenged in the media due to the NTA frankly being incapable of promoting these projects properly.




  • LXFlyer wrote: »
    The NTA frankly are appalling at promoting the positive impact of this and other schemes within the media - they don’t have any good PR people and it is showing.

    Again and again idiotic comments by opponents of the various schemes or uninformed politicians get away unchallenged in the media due to the NTA frankly being incapable of promoting these projects properly.

    They badly need a Barry Kenny type character

    Given the large role the NTA have now it is becoming a requirement




  • marno21 wrote: »
    They badly need a Barry Kenny type character

    Given the large role the NTA have now it is becoming a requirement

    I don't like Barry Kenny because he does bluster a lot about stuff and that can come across as annoying for a mere public transport commuter like me.

    However you have to admit what he does is pretty effective from an IE point of view.


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  • Hurrache wrote: »
    Details are here, 1-8 in a survey by the RSA across Ireland, a small minority, http://irishcycle.com/2016/05/26/only-1-in-8-cyclists-run-red-lights-says-study-of-60-irish-junctions/

    Can't find the other which I think was solely based on Dublin.

    You are telling me more than 1 in 8 drivers at traffic lights go through a red? Nonsense, and the article doesn't substantiate your claim either.

    As a Dublin Driver and Cyclist (owner of a road bike and user of Dublin Bikes) I am routinely the only person on bicycle at a red that obeys the red - particularly if there is no traffic flowing through the green.


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