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Dublin - BusConnects

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  • #2


    Pictograms are always preferable if an obvious one is available. Sometimes you can't convey the message in a pictogram but this is pretty easy.


  • #2


    I think it looks good - simple, clear, nice colour, neutral, large enough without being too big. What is not to like?


  • #2


    I think it looks good - simple, clear, nice colour, neutral, large enough without being too big.  What is not to like?

    The loss of national identity?


  • #2


    Dardania wrote: »
    The loss of national identity?

    Hyperbole much? Bus stops are not part of our national identity.


  • #2


    Amirani wrote: »
    Dardania wrote: »
    The loss of national identity?

    Hyperbole much? Bus stops are not part of our national identity.
    Oh, I agree, but it could be a valid concern for some people. Some of the posters above seemed to indicate that the Bus Eireann should be maintained, as should the logo etc. despite making it more applicable for a global audience. Possibly their concern is about loss of national identity...


  • #2


    Honestly a nationwide standard pictogram/format for stops is a great idea. Germany has the "H" (Haltestelle) sign which has been standard for bus & tram (and in some cases like here in Berlin Ferry!) stops since the inter-war period: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haltestelle

    Hungary uses a standard pictogram, it's pretty communist looking but it immediately identifies a bus or tram stop.

    The Irish proposal goes further as it seems to standardise the entire design of the signage, including timetable information, which is surely to be welcomed. If it's implemented Irish bus stop signage would be to my mind better than anything I've seen anywhere.


  • #2


    Why care more about visitors and not about the people who use services regularily?

    If it is easy and clear for visitors to use, then it is easy and clear for locals too.

    BTW most people in Cork are delighted with the new bus stop shelters and bus stop signs. They are a VAST improvement over the old shelters and signs that were in a really bad state, falling apart as you can see in the above pics and also the new signs are overall more informative.

    The old BE signs and shelters were in such a bad state that they made Cork look bad and reflected badly on the company too.

    I've heard many people down in Cork comment on the new signs and pretty much always very positively.

    I'd also point out, BE doesn't have a good reputation at all down in Cork, so it being gone would get you a big cheer from the people of Cork. As a brand it really doesn't have much worth.


  • #2


    The shade of blue in that 'new' bus stop is dreadful and even worse, it's plastered all over their livery too.

    I don't see when given a blank canvas, you come up with colours and designs like that and why transport companies and 'independent' regulators go for such awful light colours. Maybe it looks well on a powerpoint screen.

    It doesn't inspire confidence in their decision making.


  • #2


    I can see them qualifying inclusion on the bus stop signage with the operators supporting leap as payment. That would really make it easy for people, particularly tourists - imagine if landing in a country you only need a single card, for the entire country, for all modes of public transport? Would be amazing...I have never experienced that anywhere before.


  • #2


    dfx- wrote: »
    The shade of blue in that 'new' bus stop is dreadful and even worse, it's plastered all over their livery too.

    I don't see when given a blank canvas, you come up with colours and designs like that and why transport companies and 'independent' regulators go for such awful light colours. Maybe it looks well on a powerpoint screen.

    It doesn't inspire confidence in their decision making.

    Blue is the colour assigned by the NTA to bus services in their colour palette.

    Look at the Journey Planner / RealTime app and you’ll see the rest of the colours.


  • #2


    dfx- wrote: »
    The shade of blue in that 'new' bus stop is dreadful and even worse, it's plastered all over their livery too.

    I will say, that the stops and colour looks fantastic in person. Very smart, clean and modern looking in person. Pics don't do it justice.

    I haven't seen the colours on the new buses in person yet, so don't know about that. I agree the original design that they trialled looked terrible, but the new colour scheme that I've seen on the buses on flickr looks pretty decent. I'm looking forward to seeing it in person.


  • #2


    Dardania wrote: »
    I can see them qualifying inclusion on the bus stop signage with the operators supporting leap as payment. That would really make it easy for people, particularly tourists - imagine if landing in a country you only need a single card, for the entire country, for all modes of public transport? Would be amazing...I have never experienced that anywhere before.

    Leap is already accepted in the the vast majority of places where it makes sense.

    Dublin Bus, all BE city services, BE Dublin Commuter services, Swords Express and a bunch of other private operators, Luas, Dart, Dublin and Cork Commuter rail services.

    For the most part the only ones not using it are the long distance coach and rail services. But Leap doesn't really make much sense for them, imagine trying to use Leap to pay for a €60 Irish Rail ticket! Even on the intercity coaches it would be a little silly, you'd be just throwing €20 on your leap card in a shop, to turn around and then pay for the ticket on the Coach! Anyway these types of services tend to be more booked online today.


  • #2


    Dardania wrote: »
    The loss of national identity?

    How can you build national identity into a pole in the ground with a panel at the top that is to indicate it is a bus stop carrying a bit of information to allow people to look it up on the interweb?

    Colour - well maybe, but emerald green has been done to death, and GAA county colours might cause local difficulties. They cannot win that one.

    Design - well, the CIE flying snail or Celtic patterns, torcs and pre-Christian symbolism maybe, but I think a nice clean modern design is the way to go.

    I think they have come up with a pleasant design that appears to match its brief. It is certainly modern, and might be timeless, if a bit bland.


  • #2


    bk wrote: »
    Dardania wrote: »
    I can see them qualifying inclusion on the bus stop signage with the operators supporting leap as payment. That would really make it easy for people, particularly tourists - imagine if landing in a country you only need a single card, for the entire country, for all modes of public transport? Would be amazing...I have never experienced that anywhere before.

    Leap is already accepted in the the vast majority of places where it makes sense.

    Dublin Bus, all BE city services, BE Dublin Commuter services, Swords Express and a bunch of other private operators, Luas, Dart, Dublin and Cork Commuter rail services.

    For the most part the only ones not using it are the long distance coach and rail services. But Leap doesn't really make much sense for them, imagine trying to use Leap to pay for a €60 Irish Rail ticket! Even on the intercity coaches it would be a little silly, you'd be just throwing €20 on your leap card in a shop, to turn around and then pay for the ticket on the Coach! Anyway these types of services tend to be more booked online today.
    honestly, would make sense for me sometimes - i have auto bank topup on my leap.

    I wonder if a future iteration of leap will let you put your bought-online tickets onto it....
    Dardania wrote: »
    The loss of national identity?

    How can you build national identity into a pole in the ground with a panel at the top that is to indicate it is a bus stop carrying a bit of information to allow people to look it up on the interweb?  

    Colour - well maybe, but emerald green has been done to death, and GAA county colours might cause local difficulties.  They cannot win that one.

    Design - well, the CIE flying snail or Celtic patterns, torcs and pre-Christian symbolism maybe, but I think a nice clean modern design is the way to go.

    I think they have come up with a pleasant design that appears to match its brief.  It is certainly modern, and might be timeless, if a bit bland.
    I'm not saying one can, I'm saying that some other posters might be concerned about loss of national identity by removing the Bus Eireann signage.
    Bland is good - my only concern is will that blue fade in UV light to look manky...


  • #2


    Dardania wrote: »
    honestly, would make sense for me sometimes - i have auto bank topup on my leap.

    I wonder if a future iteration of leap will let you put your bought-online tickets onto it....

    Well you can already load various tickets on Leap cards using an android phone with NFC or at a leap ticket machine (e.g. Luas/Irish Rail TVMs).

    The next big step IMO is fully contactless payments. Basically been able to pay with your contactless debit card or using your phone (Apple/Google Pay).

    No need to carry your Leap card around, just use the debit card or phone you already have in your pocket.

    Of course, behind the scenes this is all still using the Leap infrastructure, servers, ticket machines, etc. The Leap card is just the tip of the iceberg.

    The advantage being that a visiting tourists doesn't have to bother going buying a leap card for just a temporary stay, they can just jump on the bus and use the contactless debit card in their pocket with zero setup.

    BTW we will still have Leap cards in this future, for folks with various taxsaver annual tickets.

    This has all already happened in London with Oyster and is very popular.
    Dardania wrote: »
    Bland is good - my only concern is will that blue fade in UV light to look manky...

    From what I could tell, the signs are made out of some metal. They look far more robust then the old BE poles they were replacing.

    An important point is that these new poles are modular. The pole itself seems to be a high quality metal pole, similar to the RTPI poles, with no branding on them, just a nice shiny metal. The "flag" on the top is just bolted on. This means if the service changes or the sign fades, it is easy to just pop the flag off and replace it without needing to dig up the entire pole like you might need to do with the old BE ones.

    Same with the schedule holder half way down, you can just slide in and out new schedule/info sheets easily as schedules change.

    The design of both the poles and shelters is really nicely thought out IMO. Obviously time will tell, but they look to be of a much higher and more robust quality then the old poles and shelters they replaced and their modular design should mean it is much easier to keep them looking clean and updated with the latest info as services change.


  • #2


    bk wrote: »
    The problem with the BE logo is that it means nothing to a foreign tourist. Actually the same with the TfL roundel, though that has been around for so long it is unlikely to go anywhere. Even the word "Bus" may mean nothing to an Asian or someone from another no-latin based language.

    Which is why they have the "bus" symbol at the top of the bus sign. To help visitors. This isn't unusual, bus stops all over the world are changing to this design.

    And then there is the point that the NTA probably want to de-emphasise the various brands. After all while the route might be operated by BE today, they might lose the route contract and it might be operated by Go-Ahead tomorrow like is happening on the Kildare routes.

    The design of the bus poles and shelters is a very neutral one. The only branding is the sign itself and that can easily be popped off and replaced without replacing the entire bus stop and pole.

    Yes I know that the NTA are using branding that is not associated with any particular company and I wasn't actually saying that they should keep BE logo.

    Dublin Bus use their logo as an icon to denote a stop and it's actually quite good. https://goo.gl/images/BqzfVo
    Again I know that an exsiting company's iconography can't be used just pointing out that it more original and colourful than the bland signage that has gone up in Cork.

    But your point about the Asian visitors is a complete red herring; most would recognise a symbol to denote a transport stop, besides - as another poster pointed out - it would be ludicrous to base the design around an infinitesimal amount of people.

    My point was that the new design is just generic, lacklustre and very bland. I wouldn't go as far as saying it is bad rather just in the Irish sense, it's grand. Perfunctory is probably the best description. They could've come up with branding that would be practical, recognisable (which all good wayfinding design should be) and unconnected to any previous brand but that was original, dynamic and just better.

    Take a look at a recent superb redesign of the Budapest Metro for the sort of standard we should be striving for:

    https://www.behance.net/gallery/20040227/Budapest-Public-Transport-Logos


  • #2


    Dardania wrote: »
    The loss of national identity?

    There is actually something in that; countries/cities/regions all have their own imagery, motifs and icons that set them apart and make them original. This can be anything from their flags, police badges, council crests right down to street signage and transport livery. In fact, since transport is such a massive part of city life, making it generic and nondescript is, in a small way, eroding the identity of that place.
    How can you build national identity into a pole in the ground with a panel at the top that is to indicate it is a bus stop carrying a bit of information to allow people to look it up on the interweb?

    Colour - well maybe, but emerald green has been done to death, and GAA county colours might cause local difficulties. They cannot win that one.

    Design - well, the CIE flying snail or Celtic patterns, torcs and pre-Christian symbolism maybe, but I think a nice clean modern design is the way to go.

    I think they have come up with a pleasant design that appears to match its brief. It is certainly modern, and might be timeless, if a bit bland.


    I think you're taking the term national identity far too literally. It doesn't necessarily have to be a clichéd or overtly Gaelic/Celtic design; rather an original design that is modern yet unique to Cork, Dublin or where ever.


  • #2


    There is actually something in that; countries/cities/regions all have their own imagery, motifs and icons that set them apart and make them original. This can be anything from their flags, police badges, council crests right down to street signage and transport livery. In fact, since transport is such a massive part of city life, making it generic and nondescript is, in a small way, eroding the identity of that place.




    I think you're taking the term national identity far too literally. It doesn't necessarily have to be a clichéd or overtly Gaelic/Celtic design; rather an original design that is modern yet unique to Cork, Dublin or where ever.

    Street infrastructure in countries needs to be able to identified for its intended purpose, whether it is a post box, bus stop, metro station, litter bin, etc. To try to put 'national identity' into it is perhaps possible, but not essential. What is essential is that the identity of its use is clear to all, both native and visitor.

    How many people have been confused by foreign post boxes that look like litter bins?

    Identity of function is paramount over any design cues. The bus stops shown have clearly succeeded in identifying their purpose. Bland is not a problem.


  • #2


    Street infrastructure in countries needs to be able to identified for its intended purpose, whether it is a post box, bus stop, metro station, litter bin, etc. To try to put 'national identity' into it is perhaps possible, but not essential. What is essential is that the identity of its use is clear to all, both native and visitor.

    How many people have been confused by foreign post boxes that look like litter bins?

    Identity of function is paramount over any design cues. The bus stops shown have clearly succeeded in identifying their purpose. Bland is not a problem.

    Yes functionality is the main priority but why make something bland when it be interesting and nice-looking?


  • #2


    Yes functionality is the main priority but why make something bland when it be interesting and nice-looking?

    That is a design choice and is related to taste - which is governed by personal choice. Just look at some of the logos put forward by companies - some are good and some are just awful. If the choice is between bland and awful, most would choose bland.


  • #2


    Came to this thread hoping to find some newer information on the bus connects project , specifically around BRT and route changes, and found a (very) healthy discussion on the design of bus stop signs, which leads me to believe that it's still very early days when it comes to the big changes - and that there's not a lot of info out there.

    Has anyone spotted any timeline for the BRT and the Orbital Bus Corridors so far / or knows of any rumours on when work would start on them / when they would hopefully be delivered?


  • #2


    geo88 wrote: »
    Came to this thread hoping to find some newer information on the bus connects project , specifically around BRT and route changes, and found a (very) healthy discussion on the design of bus stop signs, which leads me to believe that it's still very early days when it comes to the big changes - and that there's not a lot of info out there.

    Has anyone spotted any timeline for the BRT and the Orbital Bus Corridors so far / or knows of any rumours on when work would start on them / when they would hopefully be delivered?

    Nothing is likely to actually physically happen until early next year at the earliest in terms of infrastructural work and network redesign. Even then I’m not holding my breath given the possibility of objections to the scale of change and potential CPO activity that may be involved.

    Bear in mind that we have not even got to public consultation phase yet for either of these elements of the project, but which is due in this quarter.

    That being said a new orbital bus route 175 operated by Go Ahead across southern Dublin is likely to start later this year.


  • #2


    LXFlyer wrote: »
    That being said a new orbital bus route 175 operated by Go Ahead across southern Dublin is likely to start later this year.

    I can't find any information on this bus route apart from it being from Citywest to UCD. Any route map?


  • #2


    mortimer33 wrote: »
    I can't find any information on this bus route apart from it being from Citywest to UCD. Any route map?

    Nothing yet.

    But it likely to operate directly along the Green Route between Old Bawn and Ballinteer and to serve Dundrum.

    Beyond that I don’t know.

    We will have to wait and see the precise route details.


  • #2


    Mentioned at an Engineers Ireland presentation on Metrolink that the CBC designs will be put for public consultation in the coming weeks and the network redesign would come out in June.


  • #2


    Apart from the NTA and a few people on boards i would say the general public have never heard of busconnects. Are the NTA planning on running youtube info videos etc to inform the public of the benfits or will they just assume the public will know?


  • #2


    roadmaster wrote: »
    Apart from the NTA and a few people on boards i would say the general public have never heard of busconnects. Are the NTA planning on running youtube info videos etc to inform the public of the benfits or will they just assume the public will know?

    It got fairly reasonably sized media coverage when it was first announced but faded out of the limelight fairly swiftly. Nothing in relation to it has announced or implemented yet barring a few minor tweaks such as timetable changes, so I would say it will get more publicity during and after the public consultation.


  • #2


    It will presumably get a major public launch - like MetroLink


  • #2


    I expect a 5 min frequency from every suburb in the city to Na Fianna's grounds so kids can get to training. This is what public transport planning is all about.


  • #2


    I was reading some important bits of information today from DublinBuses.com.

    The website said that the NTA did not envisage buying more tri-axles to be used in Dublin. It is a likely scenario from them that the when VT's eventually retire from the Dublin Bus fleet; they won't intend to replace them with new tri-axles. This would mean that more solutions will have to be introduced by Dublin Bus with using double axle double deck buses with the running of their new 24 hour routes in future.

    Interestingly; the NTA are ordering 85 more SGs for fleet replacement in Dublin Bus. They will be delivered sometime in late 2018 into early 2019. The NTA are going to trial 3 hybrid buses which will be allocated strictly to only 3 Dublin Bus routes. A further order for hybrid buses afterwards will be made sometime next year.

    The NTA are also doing some modifications to various Dublin Bus SGs & GTs through new driver seat testing with lower rear bodywork installation & retro fitting of new push button bells in buggy bay areas & new bulkheads to be installed in all delivered Dublin Bus SG's.

    I also heard from other sources that Dublin Bus SGs numbered from 386 to 414 will be reserved for Go-Ahead Dublin when they begin their bus services later this year.


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