Dublin - BusConnects

Podge_irl · 13-06-2018 11:44am

LXFlyer wrote: »

I just don’t see it happening - “the moaners” as you refer to them will bog any CPO down in the courts for years. It’s a half-baked solution for an area of the city that is being ignored in terms of high capacity rail solutions.

These aren't the first CPOs in the history of the state.

It is a solution that can be delivered significantly more quickly and more cheaply than any rail alternative. Why is it half-baked? The core concept of seamless bus lanes into the city seems to make perfect sense.

cgcsb · 13-06-2018 11:50am

I think there should be a metro from Tallaght to Clongriffen, but we are many years from that, bus connects can deliver a tremendous improvement by 2022 and really regardless of whether there is a metro or not, it should be done anyway. The Swords and Ballymun roads will benefit from bus connects despite the fact they'll be served by metro anyway. They do two different jobs.

LXFlyer · 13-06-2018 12:03pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

These aren't the first CPOs in the history of the state.

It is a solution that can be delivered significantly more quickly and more cheaply than any rail alternative. Why is it half-baked? The core concept of seamless bus lanes into the city seems to make perfect sense.

Can I ask you how familiar you (and indeed cgsb) are with those corridors and the current bus performance and general traffic on them?

If you were I think you might realise the problems.

I just cannot see the scale of general traffic re-routing away from these routes happening (such as closing Templeogue Road) - they have been suggested that on and off for 25 years and nothing has ever happened due to public opposition.

With local and (possibly) general elections being held next year this will become a real hot potato.

It won’t be seamless bus lanes - that’s impossible without demolishing the core of the villages mentioned above.

With the best will in the world there is only one solution for that area and that is an underground.

I’m passionately in favour of promoting public transport, but I think that in this situation the wrong option is being taken.

It’s tinkering rather than providing the solution that is actually needed.

Podge_irl · 13-06-2018 12:07pm

LXFlyer wrote: »

Can I ask you how familiar you (and indeed cgsb) are with those corridors and the current bus performance and general traffic on them?

Not overly familiar with the southside ones.

A single underground line is not going to solve all the problems. More people will still be transported by bus and measures will still need to be implemented to remove more cars and increase efficiency of bus services. This is not instead of an underground, it will be needed either way.

I understand the skepticism that it will actually happen, but I think the tide is most definitely turning against private motorists and that change will only accelerate.

LXFlyer · 13-06-2018 12:19pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

Not overly familiar with the southside ones.

A single underground line is not going to solve all the problems. More people will still be transported by bus and measures will still need to be implemented to remove more cars and increase efficiency of bus services. This is not instead of an underground, it will be needed either way.

I understand the skepticism that it will actually happen, but I think the tide is most definitely turning against private motorists and that change will only accelerate.

I kinda guessed that. :-)

Maybe do what I regularly do and take random evening peak trips across the network and you’ll get a good feel of the problems faced by the bus service.

It’s the sheer scale of the problems faced in that south central area that make me doubt how realistic those plans are, combined with the lack of any plans for Terenure-Harold’s X at all, the fact that the scale of the potential CPO activity in the area needs to be huge (and very costly), and that potential road closures will lead to gridlock on other routes that makes me doubt the potential of these plans.

I am absolutely convinced that the plans and speed improvements won’t happen in the shape the NTA are indicating in this specific area, and frankly that we won’t see in my lifetime any rail based solution that is needed in the area.

vandriver · 13-06-2018 12:39pm

Kevtherev1 wrote: »

Correct... matt cooper lives in one of the victorian houses on Cowper Road. Across from the 140 bus stop. One of them.

No really, you're not correct.
Even when he did live on Cowper Rd, it wasn't in a victorian house.
He lives elsewhere in Rathmines now.

Bray Head · 13-06-2018 12:50pm

LXFlyer wrote: »

It’s the sheer scale of the problems faced in that south central area that make me doubt how realistic those plans are, combined with the lack of any plans for Terenure-Harold’s X at all, the fact that the scale of the potential CPO activity in the area needs to be huge (and very costly), and that potential road closures will lead to gridlock on other routes that makes me doubt the potential of these plans.

The stretch of the Harold's Cross Road from the park through to Terenure Village is already extremely tight.

There is very little that CPO-ing of front gardens could achieve to consistently dedicate more space to bus lanes. You would have to demolish whole rows of buildings which is not practical.

I think they've taken the option of sending the bus traffic through Rathmines and Kimmage.

Terenure to Harold's Cross might become car only.

Qrt · 13-06-2018 12:55pm

With regards to the bottlenecks, I assume there will be a bus priority system where bus lanes must merge with general traffic. As in perhaps a stop line for general traffic before the lane merger with a separate traffic signal, stopping general traffic when a bus approaches in order to give the bus a right of way.

LXFlyer · 13-06-2018 12:56pm

Bray Head wrote: »

The stretch of the Harold's Cross Road from the park through to Terenure Village is already extremely tight.

There is very little that CPO-ing of front gardens could achieve to consistently dedicate more space to bus lanes. You would have to demolish whole rows of buildings which is not practical.

I think they've taken the option of sending the bus traffic through Rathmines and Kimmage.

Terenure to Harold's Cross might become car only.

Agreed re the space constraints, but Terenure, Rathgar and Rathmines villages all face them too!

So what happens the (not insignificant) numbers of bus users along there?

Grin and bear it or face a much longer walk to their buses?

I’m really highlighting the fact that this still really doesn’t fundamentally solve the problems that south central area faces that only an underground rail solution will.

Bray Head · 13-06-2018 2:12pm

LXFlyer wrote: »

Agreed re the space constraints, but Terenure, Rathgar and Rathmines villages all face them too!

So what happens the (not insignificant) numbers of bus users along there?

Grin and bear it or face a much longer walk to their buses?

Yes. A walk to a high-frequency reliable route is much better than an unreliable one on your doorstep.

Kenilworth Cross is about an 8-minute walk to the Rathgar Road or a 6-minute walk to the Kimmage Road Lower.

That's worth it if the routes on these corridors become much quicker and more punctual.

LXFlyer · 13-06-2018 2:24pm

Bray Head wrote: »

Yes. A walk to a high-frequency reliable route is much better than an unreliable one on your doorstep.

Kenilworth Cross is about an 8-minute walk to the Rathgar Road or a 6-minute walk to the Kimmage Road Lower.

That's worth it if the routes on these corridors become much quicker and more punctual.

And do use those corridors yourself can I ask?

Bray Head · 13-06-2018 2:25pm

No. I don't use Dublin Bus ever because it is slow and unreliable. I prefer to cycle.

LXFlyer · 13-06-2018 2:33pm

Bray Head wrote: »

No. I don't use Dublin Bus ever because it is slow and unreliable. I prefer to cycle.

It’s a bit rich then to be telling people what’s best for them to be honest, when you don’t personally use the service in question.

Large numbers of people use the bus service along that section and blindly telling them it’s better to walk a further 8 minutes is somewhat patronising being honest about it.

It does seem to me that most posters here really don’t understand the issues facing the area and seem happy to post broad generalisations about it which don’t deal with the specific issues it faces.

Bray Head · 13-06-2018 2:42pm

I have used Dublin Bus in the past but have largely given up. I would happily use them if the service was quicker and more reliable. So would other cyclists I know as well as a few motorists and walkers.

Greater frequency and reliability is the whole point of Bus Connects. It will involve hard choices to inconvenience some people for the sake of a much better overall system. Making an omelette involves breaking some eggs.

trickybicky · 13-06-2018 2:53pm

How do they plan on removing the bottleneck of the Scherzer bridges on North Wall quay, it looks like this route is part of the Bus Connect plan

https://www.busconnects.ie/media/1186/bus-connects-cbc-route-maps-web_16.pdf

LXFlyer · 13-06-2018 3:05pm

Bray Head wrote: »

I have used Dublin Bus in the past but have largely given up. I would happily use them if the service was quicker and more reliable. So would other cyclists I know as well as a few motorists and walkers.

Greater frequency and reliability is the whole point of Bus Connects. It will involve hard choices to inconvenience some people for the sake of a much better overall system. Making an omelette involves breaking some eggs.

You’re still going to end up with frankly a half assed solution for that area. No one has put forward a convincing argument that says this will solve the problems it faces.

As I said above, I don’t see the Kimmage Rd Lower and Templeogue road closures/restrictions as being politically acceptable (whether I agree with them or not). Add to that, the continued pinch points and CPOs, frankly it’s papering the cracks rather than actually coming up with a proper solution which is a high capacity reliable metro.

loyatemu · 13-06-2018 3:31pm

trickybicky wrote: »

How do they plan on removing the bottleneck of the Scherzer bridges on North Wall quay, it looks like this route is part of the Bus Connect plan

https://www.busconnects.ie/media/1186/bus-connects-cbc-route-maps-web_16.pdf

they can't remove them, perhaps they could put bus priority lights on them? (in general I think they could do with more intelligent signalling priority for buses in many places around the city)

LeinsterDub · 13-06-2018 4:24pm

LXFlyer wrote: »

You’re still going to end up with frankly a half assed solution for that area. No one has put forward a convincing argument that says this will solve the problems it faces.

As I said above, I don’t see the Kimmage Rd Lower and Templeogue road closures/restrictions as being politically acceptable (whether I agree with them or not). Add to that, the continued pinch points and CPOs, frankly it’s papering the cracks rather than actually coming up with a proper solution which is a high capacity reliable metro.

Are you willing to sit in traffic for 30 + years while your wait for this metro?

LXFlyer · 13-06-2018 4:47pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Are you willing to sit in traffic for 30 + years while your wait for this metro?

I’m highlighting the fact that the south central area is being treated abysmally under the investment proposals.

As I don’t personally see the BusConnects plans having that much effect on journey times in that area (due to the reasons I’ve outlined), and that they will end up being significantly watered down, people are going to be stuck in traffic regardless, which is why I think that area is being shafted.

You’re being rather politically naive if you think otherwise.

BonnieSituation · 13-06-2018 5:19pm

devnull wrote: »

Does it really surprise you though?

You are kidding yourself if you think that people are just going to sit up and that they will accept that things need to change for them to get better. You have some people who think that things cannot be better as they are already fine as they know nothing better as well.

Then you have the crowd who say that there is no way they should lose lanes on their roads when there is such poor public transport that it will make the traffic so much worse with no alternative. They seem to believe that all that will change is that there will be less road space for cars and public transport will be as bad as it is now.

People don't like change and this is a pretty big one.

Absolutely doesn't surprise me. But I always live in hope that perhaps the next project will show maturity of discussion. But again foiled by the Irish ability to be insular and backward and selfish.

I had a quick breeze through some of the docs yesterday listening to Noel Rock.

What's being proposed is Amsterdam/Copenhagen modal segregation. Now call me crazy, if people knew that maybe they would be more amenable to the whole concept.

But Joe Public isn't going to read those docs but I bet he remembers what Amsterdam is like and I bet he's waxed lyrical about how Dublin should be the same.

This is is an easy sell like metrolink, you just need the right sales person.

I'll do it.

Podge_irl · 13-06-2018 5:19pm

This is not instead of a Metro though. It is 2 billion for bus transport for all Dublin, which would not even pay for one metro and one metro is not going to come close to either solving all the problems or having the same level of impact as this if done properly.

BonnieSituation · 13-06-2018 5:37pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

This is not instead of a Metro though. It is 2 billion for bus transport for all Dublin, which would not even pay for one metro and one metro is not going to come close to either solving all the problems or having the same level of impact as this if done properly.

Who are you talking to?

Podge_irl · 13-06-2018 6:02pm

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Who are you talking to?

LXFlyer.

You swooped in there before me

LXFlyer · 13-06-2018 6:33pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

This is not instead of a Metro though. It is 2 billion for bus transport for all Dublin, which would not even pay for one metro and one metro is not going to come close to either solving all the problems or having the same level of impact as this if done properly.

I think you’re not really getting what I’m saying to be honest. I’m focussing on the south Dublin area because it has the worst bus speeds in the city by a massive margin.

The bottom line for me is that, in my opinion, these plans will end up being massively watered down in that area of the city due to being politically unacceptable (I just can’t see the mass closures of roads to general traffic happening - it’s been proposed before and each time been withdrawn due to widespread opposition), and the fact that the existing pinch points will still be there unless mass demolition of villages takes place.

BusConnects has good potential in other areas of the city, on the wider corridors, and in particular the outer orbital corridors, but what I’ve said here and in the MetroLink thread is that fundamentally the wrong transport solution is being proposed for the south Dublin area, which will end up still suffering excessive bus journey times.

You may think otherwise, but I’m confident that in 2021 that area will be in much the same boat as it is now, save for minor tinkering.

The only solution (in my opinion) for that area is a Metro, which frankly isn’t even on the political radar. Hence my opinion that the area will ended up being shafted from a public transport investment perspective. I’m basically questioning the whole transport strategy for that area.

Podge_irl · 13-06-2018 6:42pm

LXFlyer wrote: »

You may think otherwise, but I’m confident that in 2021 that area will be in much the same boat as it is now, save for minor tinkering.

The only solution (in my opinion) for that area is a Metro, which frankly isn’t even on the political radar. Hence my opinion that the area will ended up being shafted from a public transport investment perspective. I’m basically questioning the whole transport strategy for that area.

I think that is possible yes. Unfortunately.

I agree with you that the area needs a metro. However, I also agree with the NTA that a metro from Swords, through the airport, is of a higher priority. That is what the SW is competing with, not this BusConnect project.

LXFlyer · 13-06-2018 6:56pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

I think that is possible yes. Unfortunately.

I agree with you that the area needs a metro. However, I also agree with the NTA that a metro from Swords, through the airport, is of a higher priority. That is what the SW is competing with, not this BusConnect project.

Well the real issue is the lack of any properly thought through and politically realistic transport plan for that area. The land reserved for a busway was given up some time ago, there’s no space for LUAS, and these plans will likely be scuppered by political objections.

In my view South Central area (Rathmines, Rathgar, Harold’s X, Kimmage, Terenure and Rathfarnham) (note it’s not SW Dublin that’s the problem although it will be affected as a knock-on) is quite likely to end up with no real improvements at all.

That to me is fundamentally wrong and shows woefully naive planning on a political level by the NTA.

Btw I’ve not in any way suggested the Metro to Swords is not a higher priority, I just think that the southern part is going in the wrong place, as the South Central area is going to remain gridlocked for years to come as BusConnects is not going to deliver in that area in my opinion.

Anyhow I think I’ve expressed my doubts about that area here enough. Time for other areas to have their say!

Carawaystick · 13-06-2018 7:48pm

Yeah, the metro should continue to the SW of the city precisely because of the narrow roads issue.

Bray Head · 13-06-2018 8:28pm

LXFlyer wrote: »

As I said above, I don’t see the Kimmage Rd Lower and Templeogue road closures/restrictions as being politically acceptable (whether I agree with them or not). Add to that, the continued pinch points and CPOs, frankly it’s papering the cracks rather than actually coming up with a proper solution which is a high capacity reliable metro.

I fully agree. But a metro is unlikely to be in place for 15 years. The Bus Connects improvements could be done in two years. That's nearly an order of magnitude difference. Something can be done soon and something should!

The proposal for the SW part of the city looks sensible to me. It would see one plodding route de-prioritised (Harold's Cross Road) and the ones with greater potential for speed (Rathmines Road and Kimmage Road) prioritised for bus traffic.

Finally, what this plan is totally lacking is a focus on enforcement. Dublin needs a dedicated transport police to make sure that people pay their fares and so that there is zero tolerance for bus and cycle lane blockages.

xper · 14-06-2018 12:13am

Dardania wrote: »

Just putting aside the media perception, and the physical works that will be needed to implement for a moment - what do people think of the routes shown? Do they make sense from a network perspective?

Surprised there has been so little comment on this in this particular forum.

In general the chosen radial corridors make a lot of sense, many are really self-selecting. I do think some of them end a little short in the outer suburbs but this probably reflects the way the forthcoming revised bus route network will spread out in those areas.

The Merrion-Blackrock corridor could continue towards Sallynoggin and Ballybrack penetrating into an area which have only indirect (directionally) services to the city.

Also wonder could the Rathfarnham corridor continue towards Nutgrove and Balinteer or towards Ballyboden.

That said, in both cases above, the areas would be partially served by the proposed orbital corridors and there is nothing to stop a bus route running along a radial corridor and then an orbital one for a short distance. The question is when are the orbital corridors going to be implemented - they are not on the 2027 Dublin public transport network map in the document. This is a concern as the orbital routes that would use them are key to the success of the network redesign.

The one other thing that I found curious was the inclusion of Nutley Lane in a UCD/Ballsbridge - City Centre corridor linking up the Bray-City Centre and Merrion-Blackrock corridors. This road is currently used only by the infrequent route 47 and Bus Eireann routes towards Wicklow/Wexford IIRC. Major route changes ahead? Or even the resurrection of the Blue Line BRT?!!

CatInABox · 14-06-2018 9:07am

Deedsie wrote: »

Does it make sense for the NTA to put in a planning application for such a massive project in one go?

Could they divide it up... for Example a single applicarion for Route 7 liffey valley to city centre
Route 8 Clondalkin to Drimnagh
Route 9 Greenhills to City Centre
Route 10 Kimmage to city centre

Those 4 routes share a section of road.

It just feels overly ambitious to think planning permisdion would be awarded for the entire project.

I hope it all goes ahead in time but just hope its done in phases.

There's nothing in the project that really jumps out as unreasonable from a planning perspective. So long as they've done the work in terms of environment impact, etc, then it should go through, probably with conditions though.

More likely, however, is a string of court cases fighting the CPOs. For those affected, if they want to save their garden, then they might see a court case as essentially "free". Win and save the garden, therefore worth the expense, or lose the case and their garden, but get paid off anyway.

Dublin - BusConnects

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