Dublin - BusConnects

Qrt

marno21 wrote: »

And so it begins

Tomorrow's Irish Times features a headline on the ramifications of bus corridor improvement relating to people losing their gardens

It would be a sin to lead with the people involved getting an actual public transport service

It seems to refer to rail projects too, I'm guessing that's MetroLink related, but could it be something to do with the DART expansion too?

marno21

Qrt wrote: »

It seems to refer to rail projects too, I'm guessing that's MetroLink related, but could it be something to do with the DART expansion too?

I was watching on Saorview so couldn't make anything out due to the blurryness, I've tried to look for the front page since but no luck so far.

Rail projects could be to do with either a) the existing Metrolink project or b) perhaps some change to the alignment post public consultation?

Perhaps the Merrion Gates project also, but that isn't really a "rail project".

Given the precedent I was expecting this, it'll likely drag on to the point that BusConnects gets watered down beyond usefulness.

Qrt

marno21 wrote: »

Given the precedent I was expecting this, it'll likely drag on to the point that BusConnects gets watered down beyond usefulness.

I've always prepared for this myself but I'm willing to be cautiously optimistic. Anyway, if the small stretch from the Walkinstown Roundabout to the Halfway House doesn't get a southbound bus lane at least, I'll be looking at emigration.

marno21

From the IT article:

BusConnects is to be announced TODAY, June 12th

* Will require the CPO of approximately gardens/parking spaces from 1,300 homes
* 230km of expanded bus lanes, 200km of cycle lanes
* Routes: Clongriffin-CC, Swords-CC (Metro ?????), Ballymun-CC (Metro?????), Finglas-Phibsborough, Blanchardstown-CC, Lucan-CC (what about the Luas?), Liffey Valley-CC, Clondalkin-Drimnagh, Greenhills-CC, Kimmage-CC, Tallaght-Terenure, Rathfarnham-CC, Bray-CC (Luas in planning? DART in existance ?), UCD/Ballsbridge-CC, Blackrock-Merrion, Ringsend-CC
* General traffic lanes will be one in each direction on above routes
* Gardens to be CPO'd to facilitate bus lane in each direction, NTA will landscape remainder of garden and find alternative parking for residents
* Will also involve narrowing of footpaths and removal of trees
* NTA: "tough choices required" if bus network is to be improved. No longer any simple changes possible to give meaningful benefits

Dublin NW TD Noel Rock has criticised the NTA, saying that tens of thousands of homeowners now fear they will be affected. "Progress always has a price, but decent communication, transparency and fair treatment of those affected should be essential". Some houses could end up just yards from the road edge, he said

* Radial routes to be complete first, orbital routes after
* CPO of gardens required on all routes bar Ringsend-CC
* Each route has "route specific challenges, such as the requirement to widen the Mahalide Road between Griffith Avenue and Fairview on the Clongriffin corridor. On Liffey Valley-CC, Mount Brown would be restricted to cyclists/PT/local access. Rathfarnham-CC would require narrowing of footpaths on Rathmines Road

marno21

BusConnects public consultation document:

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/4501387-Bus-Connects-Report-June-2018.html

IMO, the Ballymun-CC is highly questionable. Shadowing the Metrolink route along most of its route. Sure it'll provide feed to Metrolink but is it really that much of a requirement? It'll also make Mobhi Road one way, which, given the reaction to the Metro plan, likely will get politically kyboshed.

An awful lot of road closures to general traffic proposed, either in full or one way. It'll be interesting to see the reaction to this.

tom1ie

The reaction to this will be interesting indeed! If I'm reading it correctly on the tallaght to terenure route there will be qbc's from the n81/m50 junction through templeogue village and out to terenure, where general traffic will be one way but bus traffic will be two way.
Cant imagine this going down to well with the locals.

Rulmeq

marno21 wrote: »

BusConnects public consultation document:

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/4501387-Bus-Connects-Report-June-2018.html

IMO, the Ballymun-CC is highly questionable. Shadowing the Metrolink route along most of its route. Sure it'll provide feed to Metrolink but is it really that much of a requirement? It'll also make Mobhi Road one way, which, given the reaction to the Metro plan, likely will get politically kyboshed.

An awful lot of road closures to general traffic proposed, either in full or one way. It'll be interesting to see the reaction to this.

While I feel that underground is the way to go for new PT in Dublin, I know that when they opened the Luas the reduced/changed 44 meant that people who weren't near a luas station no longer had the same level of service, and also when the luas isn't running there isn't a good alternative route.


The reaction to the suggestion that people will have to give up gardens and partking spaces makes me think this isn't going to happen anyway.

Dardania

Rulmeq wrote: »

marno21 wrote: »

BusConnects public consultation document:

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/4501387-Bus-Connects-Report-June-2018.html

IMO, the Ballymun-CC is highly questionable. Shadowing the Metrolink route along most of its route. Sure it'll provide feed to Metrolink but is it really that much of a requirement? It'll also make Mobhi Road one way, which, given the reaction to the Metro plan, likely will get politically kyboshed.

An awful lot of road closures to general traffic proposed, either in full or one way. It'll be interesting to see the reaction to this.

While I feel that underground is the way to go for new PT in Dublin, I know that when they opened the Luas the reduced/changed 44 meant that people who weren't near a luas station no longer had the same level of service, and also when the luas isn't running there isn't a good alternative route.


The reaction to the suggestion that people will have to give up gardens and partking spaces makes me think this isn't going to happen anyway.

I wonder, will reminding people that they still have back gardens help? And maybe throwing some money at triple glazing to deal with upcoming noise complaints...

zl1whqvjs75cdy

This is going to get absolutely buried in planning complaints now. Never going to happen

LXFlyer

marno21 wrote: »

And so it begins

Tomorrow's Irish Times features a headline on the ramifications of bus corridor improvement relating to people losing their gardens

It would be a sin to lead with the people involved getting an actual public transport service

To be fair Marno21, the reality is that the required CPO activity is going to be the major political issue here as I’ve warned all along. It’s one thing saying you’re going to spend €2 billion on the bus network, but it’s a whole different ball game when it involves mass purchase of private property, particularly front gardens! This element would have gone over most people’s heads when the project was launched originally.

It’s on a much greater scale than Metrolink and I can see this dragging on through the courts for some time.

They need to get the politicians on side for this, otherwise this will end up being scaled back to more half measures.

If I’m honest, despite being pro-public transport all of my life, I think that when the reality of losing direct bus services for their journey dawns on people, and combined with this scale of CPO work, this project is going to end up being mired in objections and the courts and many of the proposals canned.

The outer orbital elements have probably the best chance of success given that most of the routes are wide enough as it is.

LXFlyer

Dardania wrote: »

I wonder, will reminding people that they still have back gardens help? And maybe throwing some money at triple glazing to deal with upcoming noise complaints...

I think you’re rather naive if you think that’s going to work politically.

CatInABox

Haha, a double whammy for the St Mobhi Road residents, first metrolink, now this:

Ballymun to city centre
Botanic Road, Glasnevin Hill and Ballymun Road: to allow a bus lane in each direction on St Mobhi Road while maintaining existing trees along this street, outbound general traffic could be routed via Botanic Road, Glasnevin Road and Ballymun Road. St Mobhi Road would become one-way southbound for general traffic while allowing residents to also access the road in the northbound direction by using the bus lane.

Kind of thought that they had some plan in mind when they recommended the Metrolink TBM site should be there.

LeinsterDub

marno21 wrote: »

BusConnects public consultation document:

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/4501387-Bus-Connects-Report-June-2018.html

IMO, the Ballymun-CC is highly questionable. Shadowing the Metrolink route along most of its route. Sure it'll provide feed to Metrolink but is it really that much of a requirement? It'll also make Mobhi Road one way, which, given the reaction to the Metro plan, likely will get politically kyboshed.

An awful lot of road closures to general traffic proposed, either in full or one way. It'll be interesting to see the reaction to this.

ML is over a decade away, plus we'll get the cycling infrastructure. We can't leave out a key route in the hope ML will actual be built.

Dardania

LXFlyer wrote: »

Dardania wrote: »

I wonder, will reminding people that they still have back gardens help? And maybe throwing some money at triple glazing to deal with upcoming noise complaints...

I think you’re rather naive if you think that’s going to work politically.

I like to term it optimism ;-)
It's a political bomb.

LXFlyer

The mass closure of sections of certain corridors to general traffic is also going to be a political bomb - that’s going to be really difficult to push through!

matrim

CatInABox wrote: »

Haha, a double whammy for the St Mobhi Road residents, first metrolink, now this:



Kind of thought that they had some plan in mind when they recommended the Metrolink TBM site should be there.

Botanic road is already a pain (especially after the closure of walsh road) and residents are already complaining that it is a carpark at peak times. I don't see how they can push more traffic onto it and not expect major push back.

CatInABox

I wonder will they try and do the Merrion Gates project under this umbrella, it's listed as a specific challenge on the Blackrock to Merrion route.

TheIrishGrover

Is there a single person who believes that a single blade of grass will be turned on this project? One single person in this entire country? How many times have we seen variations? They will spend between 25 and 50 million over next 4 years planning, proposing, re-proposing, replanning before scrapping

I've been living Hartstown/Huntstown area for 20 years. Since I moved to Dublin and I used to pay attention to these "plans". About 20 years ago I remember telling a friend who was visiting about the plans to make Cabra section buses/residents only. "Will be good. Apparently in next 3 years or so".

At this stage it's just a case of we have a few million to blow. Let's get some engineers a few jobs for 5 years. It's not like we are actually going to action their plans. Just makes me roll my eyes at another waste of money on a vapour project that will never NEVER materialise. EVER

Bray Head

A few thoughts:

• With a few exceptions the corridors chosen tend to make sense and don't duplicate rail-based infrastructure
• There are very few specifics on integrated ticketing, contactless payment and the like. There is a big amount of low-hanging fruit here and much of this could happen before the roadworks start. I hope this gets prioritised.
• It's a huge pity that there is not a commitment to reducing the number of bus stops and consistently using the middle doors. This is actually politically easier than CPO-ing gardens.
• Some of the cycle lanes proposed involve lengthy diversions. Most cyclists (I speak as one) will ignore these. It would be better to accept that cyclists will take the most direct route. If you really want to be radical then have some bus-only bus lanes.
• More bus lanes is a big free gift to taxi drivers. There needs to be a serious debate about having either taxi-free bus lanes, or charging taxis for their use.
• The real debate will begin when the detailed plans are released in September/October

Heartbreak Hank

An overview from the Irish Times

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/dublin-bus-upgrade-plan-what-you-need-to-know-1.3527158

loyatemu

TheIrishGrover wrote: »

Is there a single person who believes that a single blade of grass will be turned on this project? One single person in this entire country? How many times have we seen variations? They will spend between 25 and 50 million over next 4 years planning, proposing, re-proposing, replanning before scrapping

I think we'll see piecemeal implementation of the less contentious bits. Possibly this will highlight the remaining pinch points and provide some political impetus to fix those, but the sort of big bang approach suggested in the document seems doomed to failure.

loyatemu

Bray Head wrote: »

A few thoughts:

• Some of the cycle lanes proposed involve lengthy diversions. Most cyclists (I speak as one) will ignore these. It would be better to accept that cyclists will take the most direct route. If you really want to be radical then have some bus-only bus lanes.
  

aye - I cycle through Shankill on my way into town, I'd happily take an off-road lane if it was direct and didn't involve stopping at every little junction, but what they're suggesting sounds like it could add 10 minutes to the journey. I'll still be going through the village so.

Effects

loyatemu wrote: »

What they're suggesting sounds like it could add 10 minutes to the journey. I'll still be going through the village so.

Maybe it would be less stressful so the 10 minutes might be worth it?

loyatemu

Effects wrote: »

Maybe it would be less stressful so the 10 minutes might be worth it?

I'm all for more cycling infrastructure as it does encourage more people to cycle.

Regular cyclists won't use it though if it involves long indirect detours, loss of priority etc.

bk

Overall, and obviously without having the detail plans, this looks like a fantastic overall plan.

The plan is looking for across the board 40 to 50% reduction in bus journey times, great.

Most corridors look like journey times of 30 minutes or less (for the full length of the corridor).

If all this happened it would really solve so many of Dublins transport problems.

Of course the issue is the damn NIMBY's will now crawl out of the wood work and complain and moan. But really we need to get over our aversion to doing major infrastructure development and the necessary CPOing it always requires and facing down of planning complaints that usually come with it.

Their is no other choice if we want our city and country to continue to grow, expand and be successful.

Dardania

bk wrote: »

Overall, and obviously without having the detail plans, this looks like a fantastic overall plan.

The plan is looking for across the board 40 to 50% reduction in bus journey times, great.

Most corridors look like journey times of 30 minutes or less (for the full length of the corridor).

If all this happened it would really solve so many of Dublins transport problems.

Of course the issue is the damn NIMBY's will now crawl out of the wood work and complain and moan. But really we need to get over our aversion to doing major infrastructure development and the necessary CPOing it always requires and facing down of planning complaints that usually come with it.

Their is no other choice if we want our city and country to continue to grow, expand and be successful.

I think we can coin a new term - NIMFY!

Effects

loyatemu wrote: »

Regular cyclists won't use it though if it involves long indirect detours, loss of priority etc.

My biggest issue with the canal bike path is the amount of stops is too frequent.

prunudo

As with Metrolink, RTE leading with the story on how it will inconvenience 1300 home owners yet not the benefit it will have on hundreds of thousand public transport users.

Bray Head

jvan wrote: »

As with Metrolink, RTE leading with the story on how it will inconvenience 1300 home owners yet not the benefit it will have on hundreds of thousand public transport users.

Judging by the state of a lot of front gardens (think Drumcondra or Harold's X) a lot of housing along these routes is already in the private rented sector.

A lot of landlords will be quite happy with a payout and tenants are unlikely to be motivated objectors.

Dardania

jvan wrote: »

As with Metrolink, RTE leading with the story on how it will inconvenience 1300 home owners yet not the benefit it will have on hundreds of thousand public transport users.

Who are their listeners/reader - older people in the affected houses in these settled areas, or those that are travelling past everyday on their arduous commutes...