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Does this sound reasonable - divorce and mortgage

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Comments

  • #102
    OldNotWIse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,468 ✭✭✭✭OldNotWIse


    Senature wrote: »
    Sorry if this is hurtful op, but maybe he is so unwilling to change things or address any of this is because he still hopes they will get back together?

    No that is definitely not something that I consider to be remotely possible.

    He is saying that as far as solicitor advice went, if he goes to court, he cant be made sell the house, and if he stops paying the mortgage, the debt's on him.

    I know that the legal system is unfairly tilted towards women, but even this seems madness. What would happen (hypothetically) if we had a kid? Would it be a pauper?


  • #103
    Senature
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 349 ✭✭Senature


    Part of the problem is that their financial situation now is not reflective of a seperated/divorced family. Despite them being "seperated" for years, they haven't been living that way as they were both under the same roof. He needs to set up a new home for himself and incur all the expenses involved in doing so. Somewhere he can realistically live in the medium term e.g. an independent house/apartment not a rented room/stay temporarily with a mate/family member/you. Personally I think it should be minimum a 2 bed so the kids can stay overnight with him. Once that is the case, there are two households to split expenses between so a court/judge will be assessing a different situation than if he went in as things stand today where he is living rent free in someone else's house that he is not financially responsible for. It is also why I think it can be good to pay for some of the kids stuff himself rather than just giving their mum money all the time. E.g. if mum says "I need money, I just paid a big electricity bill and Simon needs new football boots" then bring Simon to get football boots and keep the receipt, don't transfer the money to mum. It helps him prove what the actual expenses are, rather than an inflated pie in the sky amount she might claim. And also helps to show that he is a responsible father who is there for and cares for his children which "could" help achieve a more favourable outcome in court.
    All this could be moot though. You are the one posting about this online, airing your concerns and discussing possible solutions, not your partner. I understand every one of your worries, but I think your main issue is that your partner seems to be happy enough to maintain the status quo here, despite how unhappy that makes you. It's his actions I'd be putting my attention on if I were you op, not his words. He's been living with her but split up for 6 years? In all that time he didn't think it would be better if he lived elsewhere, even with a friend or in a rented room? Are they even legally seperated? Have any legal wheels been set in motion in any way?


  • #104
    beertons
    Hosted Moderators Posts: 23,184 ✭✭✭✭beertons


    I think he needs his own rent book. With all the expenses involved.


  • #105
    OldNotWIse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,468 ✭✭✭✭OldNotWIse


    Senature wrote: »
    All this could be moot though. You are the one posting about this online, airing your concerns and discussing possible solutions, not your partner. I understand every one of your worries, but I think your main issue is that your partner seems to be happy enough to maintain the status quo here, despite how unhappy that makes you. It's his actions I'd be putting my attention on if I were you op, not his words. He's been living with her but split up for 6 years? In all that time he didn't think it would be better if he lived elsewhere, even with a friend or in a rented room? Are they even legally seperated? Have any legal wheels been set in motion in any way?

    He claims that the house is only just out of negative equity, and therefore he wasn't in a position to run two households, and also that it suited him to stay there because he had constant access to the kids. But yes I think the situation, allowed to progress to what it is now, is daft beyond belief.

    She is talking now about "downsizing" - how big of her :rolleyes: He'd still be the mortgage holder though. Why she thinks she is above renting is beyond me.


  • #106
    Big Bag of Chips
    Administrators Posts: 14,690 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Big Bag of Chips


    "Due to her illness" she can't work.

    Yet she does work.

    I think your partner is either an idiot who doesn't "get" what is being said to him. It he's hoping you're an idiot who will go along with his version.

    He needs to live separately to prove his outgoings. He cannot then be reasonably expected to pay more than his income. They will both have to cut their cloth. Or they will both have to move back in together to be able to afford to live.

    You are subsiding him, subsiding her. And, just as she will continue to take his money for as long as he is giving it. He will continue to take your money for as long as you are offering it.


  • #107
    Ursus Horribilis
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,168 ✭✭✭Ursus Horribilis


    OldNotWIse wrote: »

    She is talking now about "downsizing" - how big of her :rolleyes: He'd still be the mortgage holder though. Why she thinks she is above renting is beyond me.

    Why on earth would anybody agree to leave their mortgaged home and subject themselves to the basket case that is our rental market? It's not snobbery. It's pure pragmatism.


  • #108
    OldNotWIse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,468 ✭✭✭✭OldNotWIse


    Ursus Horribilis wrote: »
    Why on earth would anybody agree to leave their mortgaged home and subject themselves to the basket case that is our rental market? It's not snobbery. It's pure pragmatism.

    Of course - she has it so easy, I wouldn't be giving up the free ride either if someone was paying my mortgage of 2200 per month and giving me a grand cash on top of that too.


  • #109
    Ursus Horribilis
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,168 ✭✭✭Ursus Horribilis


    She's amenable to downsizing though, isn't she? Which is a more viable option.


  • #110
    sbsquarepants
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭sbsquarepants


    OldNotWIse wrote: »
    He claims that the house is only just out of negative equity, and therefore he wasn't in a position to run two households,.

    What difference does negative equity make - the mortgage payments are the same negative or positive?
    OldNotWIse wrote: »
    She is talking now about "downsizing" - how big of her :rolleyes: He'd still be the mortgage holder though. Why she thinks she is above renting is beyond me.


    To be honest with you - his best play is probably if he can sweet talk her in to a deal, then take that deal to the family courts and have it rubber stamped. With them being married and her being "sick" - she is effectively going to be treated as another dependent by the courts - they are very heavily skewed in her favour.

    You should be under no illusion that it isn't going to be a big financial burden - potentially for decades. What age are the kids?


  • #111
    SteM
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,937 ✭✭✭SteM


    How can the mortgage be €2200 per month? They were a family of 4 so only needed a 3 bed house. What the hell did they buy and how did they get that sort of mortgage if she can't work?


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  • #112
    C3PO
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,782 ✭✭✭C3PO


    OldNotWIse wrote: »
    Of course - she has it so easy, I wouldn't be giving up the free ride either if someone was paying my mortgage of 2200 per month and giving me a grand cash on top of that too.

    It's not "someone" who is paying her mortgage and bills it's her legally married husband! Based on my own experience and the circumstances as you outline them your partner has really painted himself into a corner by leaving the marital home without thinking this through! This situation will not sort itself out easily nor any time soon!
    You need to come to terms with this, OP, and decide whether you can live with the current situation for at least the medium term or whether you should call it a day until your partner sorts his mess out!


  • #113
    C3PO
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,782 ✭✭✭C3PO


    SteM wrote: »
    How can the mortgage be €2200 per month? They were a family of 4 so only needed a 3 bed house. What the hell did they buy and how did they get that sort of mortgage if she can't work?

    €2,200 would not be an unusual mortgage in Dublin! Sure, the rent on a 2 bed apartment is typically more than that!


  • #114
    Big Bag of Chips
    Administrators Posts: 14,690 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Big Bag of Chips


    And why would he change anything when he has you paying for him?!

    Is he really great, ONW? He must have something very very special in order for you to put up with all this BS. He sounds very immature. Like he hasn't a clue, or hasn't the guts to stand up for himself. Standing up to her does not have to mean negleting his children. There is a lot being made of her inability to work and earn her own money - yet you say she does work. Do you know that's cash in hand? For definite? All you really have is his word to go on. And to be honest, an awful lot of what he says just doesn't add up. I'd wonder if he ever actually saw a solicitor, and if he did how he presented his case to him. Did he go in and say "I what to separate legally from my wife, and I want to know the best way to go about it" - because no solicitor is going to tell him it can't be done. And that is basically what he came home to tell you.

    Honestly, I wouldn't believe much of what he says. And it's easy to make her out to be the bad guy, and I'd bet my own house on it that if the time comes where he has to separate from her properly and not contribute quite so much to her, YOU will be made out (by him) to be the bad guy, making him do all this.

    He sounds like a wuss. And a not very reliable wuss, at that.


  • #115
    C3PO
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,782 ✭✭✭C3PO


    I'm not so sure that the advice that he claims to have got from the solicitor is actually that far off the mark! From the judges perspective, he will be faced with an abandoned wife who's husband has left the marital home and children and moved in with another woman. She has been left to bring up their two school going children. She will presumably be able to "prove" that she is too unwell to work and thus cannot earn an income. Given this scenario I would expect the judge to rule that the wife should continue to live in the marital home at least until the children have finished their education and that the husband should continue to support her financially during this time.
    I also suspect that this is what the husband (the OPs partner) actually wants to do!


  • #116
    SteM
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,937 ✭✭✭SteM


    C3PO wrote: »
    €2,200 would not be an unusual mortgage in Dublin! Sure, the rent on a 2 bed apartment is typically more than that!

    We bought a 3 bed in Dublin 24 in April 2007 just before the crash and our repayment is not even half this. If I was the OP I'd be querying this, sounds like this fella is telling porkies imo. How did they get such a big mortgage is the wife can't work?


  • #117
    Paddy Cow
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,576 ✭✭✭Paddy Cow


    C3PO wrote: »
    I'm not so sure that the advice that he claims to have got from the solicitor is actually that far off the mark! From the judges perspective, he will be faced with an abandoned wife who's husband has left the marital home and children and moved in with another woman. She has been left to bring up their two school going children. She will presumably be able to "prove" that she is too unwell to work and thus cannot earn an income. Given this scenario I would expect the judge to rule that the wife should continue to live in the marital home at least until the children have finished their education and that the husband should continue to support her financially during this time.
    I also suspect that this is what the husband (the OPs partner) actually wants to do!
    That's reasonable to presume. What the op's partner is saying, is that his ex gets to keep her social welfare, children's allowance and cash in hand money. She doesn't contribute any of this money towards the house or kids and uses it for weekends away for herself. She expects her ex to pay the mortgage, bills, allowance to her and maintenance for the kids. That's what posters have issues with. Her ex is willing to go along with that and he is making out his solicitor said the same thing.

    I know courts can favour the woman but I don't see any judge saying "sure you can keep all your money for going away and your ex can cover absolutely everything else". It's madness. For some bizarre reason the op's partner is willing to go along with this but it's crippling the op financially. Sooner or later the op's partner is going to have to stand up to his ex and tell her to cop on. She is also responsible for her children and should be providing for them financially. Children's allowance is NOT meant for parents to go on trips away. It's meant to be spent on the kids, whether that be food, clothing or whatever.


  • #118
    C3PO
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,782 ✭✭✭C3PO


    I'm not arguing about the rights and wrongs of the situation PC but I do think that the OP needs to come to terms with the distinct possibility that the situation will not change materially for herself and her partner for at least the foreseeable future! And nobody has so far mentioned the crippling costs of divorce proceedings if it's an acrimonious/adversarial situation!


  • #119
    OldNotWIse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,468 ✭✭✭✭OldNotWIse


    SteM wrote: »
    How can the mortgage be €2200 per month? They were a family of 4 so only needed a 3 bed house. What the hell did they buy and how did they get that sort of mortgage if she can't work?

    Big 4 bed house, lots of extra work done on it. Couple of re-mortgages to bail them out because she wasn't working etc....


  • #120
    OldNotWIse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,468 ✭✭✭✭OldNotWIse


    C3PO wrote: »
    I'm not arguing about the rights and wrongs of the situation PC but I do think that the OP needs to come to terms with the distinct possibility that the situation will not change materially for herself and her partner for at least the foreseeable future! And nobody has so far mentioned the crippling costs of divorce proceedings if it's an acrimonious/adversarial situation!

    That's another thing - apparently the solicitor recommended judicial separation instead of divorce, because she can contest divorce and drag things out :(


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  • #121
    Big Bag of Chips
    Administrators Posts: 14,690 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Big Bag of Chips


    You haven't answered: what are you getting from the relationship.

    Because honestly, we can all post telling you you don't have to accept the situation etc, but if you are happy with him, really happy with him, and you are willing to find a way of making it work for you and him, then that's nobody else's business.

    Are you happy?


  • #122
    OldNotWIse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,468 ✭✭✭✭OldNotWIse


    Big Bag of Chips wrote: »
    You haven't answered: what are you getting from the relationship.

    Because honestly, we can all post telling you you don't have to accept the situation etc, but if you are happy with him, really happy with him, and you are willing to find a way of making it work for you and him, then that's nobody else's business.

    Are you happy?

    Honestly, no. When we are good together we are happy, but when this stuff comes up... No, and I always seem to be the one compromising.

    If I put big girl pants on and try to be objective, I likely spend 60-70% of my time since we became serious feeling angry, sad, frustrated, torn, lonely, tired and grumpy!


  • #123
    Tell me how
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,309 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    OldNotWIse wrote:
    If I put big girl pants on and try to be objective, I likely spend 60-70% of my time since we became serious feeling angry, sad, frustrated, torn, lonely, tired and grumpy!

    Seriously. Do you need people on the internet to tell you what to do in this circumstance?
    A relationship should make you feel better about and within yourself.

    Sure there will be dark days but 60-70%.

    Start walking now. You'll be a step closer to finding happiness.


  • #124
    Emme
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,055 ✭✭✭Emme


    OldNotWIse wrote: »
    Works unofficially cash in hand, several hours a week I believe - but what she earns is her own for girly holidays, going out with her fella, shopping etc. It's still him that has to take care of all the finances.

    Yet she expects her ex and you to pay the bills.

    OldNotWIse wrote: »
    Honestly, no. When we are good together we are happy, but when this stuff comes up... No, and I always seem to be the one compromising.

    If I put big girl pants on and try to be objective, I likely spend 60-70% of my time since we became serious feeling angry, sad, frustrated, torn, lonely, tired and grumpy!

    Time to cut your losses OP. Move on and don't be taken for a mug any longer.


  • #125
    SteM
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,937 ✭✭✭SteM


    OldNotWIse wrote: »
    Big 4 bed house, lots of extra work done on it. Couple of re-mortgages to bail them out because she wasn't working etc....

    Well then you're dealing with an idiot. He bought a 4 bed house for 4 people. Hard to feel sorry for him.


  • #126
    Dial Hard
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,058 ✭✭✭✭Dial Hard


    OldNotWIse wrote: »
    That's another thing - apparently the solicitor recommended judicial separation instead of divorce, because she can contest divorce and drag things out :(

    Ah here, ONW, he's leading you up the garden path and back down again. There is absolutely no way any solicitor told him that. Judicial separation isn't some kind of easier alternative to divorce, it's just a part of the process that some people choose to do to make the divorce itself quicker & easier. She can contest a JS just as easily as a divorce and all the same things need to be dealt with - affidavits of means, disposal of assets, custody etc.


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  • #127
    C3PO
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,782 ✭✭✭C3PO


    SteM wrote: »
    Well then you're dealing with an idiot. He bought a 4 bed house for 4 people. Hard to feel sorry for him.

    Oh for Gods sake ... Lots of people buy 4 bed houses with only two children - It doesn't necessarily make them stupid! A bedroom for them, one for each of the children and a spare room for visitors/office. At the time they probably envisaged being together for the the long term - this was to be their long term home! Sometimes things just don't work out!


  • #128
    SteM
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,937 ✭✭✭SteM


    C3PO wrote: »
    Oh for Gods sake ... Lots of people buy 4 bed houses with only two children - It doesn't necessarily make them stupid! A bedroom for them, one for each of the children and a spare room for visitors/office. At the time they probably envisaged being together for the the long term - this was to be there long term home! Sometimes things just don't work out!

    He bought a place that was too big for them, that needed work doing on it and then remortgaged multiple times and you don't think these are stupid decisions. He deserves his ridiculous mortgage repayments.


  • #129
    UsBus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,390 ✭✭✭UsBus


    SteM wrote: »
    Well then you're dealing with an idiot. He bought a 4 bed house for 4 people. Hard to feel sorry for him.

    What are you on about.? Their bedroom, 1 for each of the kids. What if they had a third child..? Or a spare room for guests, storage, office...etc..


  • #130
    Tell me how
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,309 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    UsBus wrote:
    What are you on about.? Their bedroom, 1 for each of the kids. What if they had a third child..? Or a spare room for guests, storage, office...etc..

    I'm single and I've a 4 bed. That's not the issue here.


  • #131
    Ursus Horribilis
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,168 ✭✭✭Ursus Horribilis


    ONW, were you long broken up with your last partner before you got with this guy? Maybe it's time to be single for a while and to concentrate on you? This guy is a step up from the abusive partners you had in the past but you seem to have jumped from the frying pan into the fire. If this man is telling you lies regarding what the solicitor told you, why would you want to build a life with him? If he's telling the truth and doesn't have the guts to stand up to his ex and for you, why would you want to build a life with him? If you're facing into a life of sitting in eating cornflakes on a Saturday evening and never being able to afford to do what you want, why would you want to hook your trailer to his wagon? No matter what way you look at this, the relationship appears to be doomed.


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  • #132
    homerjay2005
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,346 ✭✭✭✭homerjay2005


    the father is getting alot of stick here for being a mug but the stark reality is he appears to be caught by the b*lls no matter what he does. that said of course, he is totally over paying and should start to cop on and take a stance.

    this is a very worrying tread for any men/fathers who are about to go through a separation, the legal system is very much weighted in favour of the woman.


  • #133
    Daidy2011
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 109 ✭✭Daidy2011


    OldNotWIse wrote: »
    He had his solicitor appointment - and it looks like he's done for.

    Because of her illnesses, she can't be compelled to sell the family home, and if he goes to court, he will likely end up paying the full mortgage, an allowance to her and maintenance for the kids. So she gets to stay living in her big house and not having to pay anything towards it while he covers the mortgage of 2200, she gets her social welfare, children's allowance, will get an allowance from him plus maintenance. She won't work. She won't rent.

    And we will be left both working our backsides off to keep her in the life she is accustomed to - with bleak prospects for the future.

    I've got to give this serious thought...


    ONW - I think he needs to get a second opinion.



    I am going through something similar and have been for the past 9 years through, to be honest, mostly my softly softly approach to ensure that I kept my kids "on side" and communicating with me (which hasn't worked).


    It took me a long time but as you have done to your partner, my partner gave me the proverbial "foot up the ass" and I am currently in divorce proceedings. It has taken 2 years, mostly through her intransigence and failing to engage in the process, but we are close (fingers crossed) to a resolution.


    The reason I say that your partner needs a second opinion - and this is NOT legal advice - but in going through this process under the act and therefore the law, the judge MUST make "fair and equitable" provision for both parties.


    One of the differences between your partner and me is that my children are no longer deemed to be dependents as laid out in the act as they are over 18 and not in full time education while his are and that is likely to have a bearing on any ruling a judge may make.


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