Does this sound reasonable - divorce and mortgage

OldNotWIse

Looking for some objective advice.

I am in a relationship with someone who has begun divorce proceedings. They have been separated for 6 years, but were living together until recently in separate parts of the house, due to negative equity.

We have just moved into (my house).

His ex doesn't work due to illness and there are 2 children - age 15 and 11. The family home is only just out of negative equity so they could just sell and walk away.

She wants to remain in the area for the kids, doesn't want to rent as the kids wont have an inheritance,and wont work. I'm struggling to reconcile her absolute unwillingness to compromise on anything but so it is.

He is likely to end up paying around 1600 pm in maintenance.

She wants him to take on a new mortgage so that she can have somewhere to live with the kids that is not a rental property. She wont qualify for a mortgage on her own. I think this is ridiculous - why take on a new mortgage with your ex?

An idea we've had is for him and me to buy a small house in the area so that we are getting a mortgage between us rather than him and her, agree as part of the divorce that she gets to remain there until the kids are finished full time education, at which point she leaves and possibly gets a % of the proceeds of the house to reflect the time she has spent at home caring for them. Presumably there would be also a smaller maintenance payment on top of that.

I think it ticks all the boxes:

Kids have an inheritance
Ex gets to live rent free until they are independent
We are investing in the future for us and his children by paying a mortgage rather than him paying maintenance and it being used to pay rent.

Does this sound like a good idea?

Really interested to hear people's views on this, or if anyone has done anything like this or been in a similar situation - and thank you!

Neyite

You need to take legal advice on this. On the face of it it sounds like a bad idea.

You need to see what the legal implications are, for example:
What % of their shared property would she likely be entitled to as a SAHM? Could she have the right to remain in the existing one until the children are finished with education or turn 18. What is the correct level of maintenance he should pay?

What if you bought a property for her to live in and she refused to move out at the agreed time? What then?

So you really need to talk to someone who can advise you of implications before you make that offer.

SusanC10

Plus 1 - get proper Legal & Tax Advice from a Solicitor who specialises in Family Law before your Partner suggests this or any other solutions or agrees to any solutions from his ex.

Mr. Incognito

What happens if you break up with him.

Sure as sugar he will move into your shared house with his ex and the kids and you are left with half their mortgage.

This is a crazy idea. She has a legal right to 50% of his assets, his kids the rest. You have a legal right to 0%,

You think his ex wife is going to take kindly to living in YOUR house. I think not.

My advice is to let him and his solicitor and his ex wife and her solicitor sort it out and stay the hell out of it and certainly don't commit any money or cash to it.

OldNotWIse

thanks for the feedback. I will mention to him not to bring it up with her until discussed with solicitor.

I hadn't thought about the implications of us breaking up.

Presumably when the divorce comes through she wont still be entitled to 50% of his assets?

On a personal note, if she is unwilling to rent and unable to get a new mortgage or pay the existing one - where does that leave us? Am I being unreasonable to tell him I don't want to be with him if he enters into a new mortgage with her? It doesn't sound like a clean break

SusanC10

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

My advice is to let him and his solicitor and his ex wife and her solicitor sort it out and stay the hell out of it and certainly don't commit any money or cash to it.

This.

Personally tbh, I would wait until your Partner and his ex are actually divorced before making any kind of further commitments esp financial with him.

osarusan

Is this the say guy you were breaking up with before Christmas?

Seems like he finally got his arse in gear about actually separating.

As mentioned above, don't even dream of buying a property and then letting her live in it.

I would say the best thing you can do is stay out of it and let them come to an agreement, definitely after seeking legal advice.

Neyite

OldNotWIse wrote: »

thanks for the feedback. I will mention to him not to bring it up with her until discussed with solicitor.

I hadn't thought about the implications of us breaking up.

Presumably when the divorce comes through she wont still be entitled to 50% of his assets?

On a personal note, if she is unwilling to rent and unable to get a new mortgage or pay the existing one - where does that leave us? Am I being unreasonable to tell him I don't want to be with him if he enters into a new mortgage with her? It doesn't sound like a clean break

Over the course of that mortgage between them:
You could split up.
She could have more kids with another partner who would then be entitled to a share of assets.
She could remarry.
Or die.
She could remarry and die leaving a spouse.
He could die.
She could leave her share to Dog's Trust.
She could refuse to move out of the second house you and he buy and he's not going to get the baliffs to evict his children's mother.

So many variables and so many potential problems. It should be a clean fair break with the children's best interests at the forefront of it.

OldNotWIse

Neyite wrote: »

Over the course of that mortgage between them:
You could split up.
She could have more kids with another partner who would then be entitled to a share of assets.
She could remarry.
Or die.
She could remarry and die leaving a spouse.
He could die.
She could leave her share to Dog's Trust.
She could refuse to move out of the second house you and he buy and he's not going to get the baliffs to evict his children's mother.

So many variables and so many potential problems. It should be a clean fair break with the children's best interests at the forefront of it.

Agree, it just looks like it is not shaping up to be a clean, fair break with her asking him to enter a new mortgage, refusing to rent and refusing to work! I get that he has to pay maintenance but I don't see why he should have to commit to another mortgage because she wont cut her cloth.

OldNotWIse

osarusan wrote: »

Is this the say guy you were breaking up with before Christmas?

Seems like he finally got his arse in gear about actually separating.

As mentioned above, don't even dream of buying a property and then letting her live in it.

I would say the best thing you can do is stay out of it and let them come to an agreement, definitely after seeking legal advice.

Yup same one. I finally gave him the boot up the hole he needed to put things in motion

Tell me how

OldNotWIse wrote:

Yup same one. I finally gave him the boot up the hole he needed to put things in motion

Think it's way too soon to be thinking of buying a house with a partner who is still likely dealing with his changing circumstances.

Not to mention his divorce, maintenance issues/responsibilities.

Do not put any of your money in to providing a solution for this (especially not getting a mortgage) would be my opinion.

And yes, if he gets a mortgage with his ex, it's enough to give you reason to walk away.

zapper55

It's a awful idea. If he even considers it he's completely taking advantage of you.

So he dragged his feet for ages on separating and now that he has done something, instead of letting his ex rent or stay in the house (I'm not clear why she can't live there) he's dragging his feet again about a solution.

Do you not feel more like a mother than a partner to this guy? He seems unable or too lazy to deal with his own problems.

I wouldn't be getting involved financially with him at all. Actually does he pay towards your mortgage /rent? If not you are already doing more than enough anyways.

Ursus Horribilis

It's probably not even a good idea that he has moved in with you while all this other unresolved stuff is still going on. You're running the risk of being sucked right into the middle of this mess, even though it has nothing to do with you. He is being very unfair on you and I wonder is there a bit of enabling going on?

Kidchameleon

Not being smart but OP, you need a good kick in the hole for even considering getting involved in a mess like that. Lifes to short.

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Tell me how

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Do not even think about this. IMO.

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OldNotWIse

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We have actually spoken about that and the offer was there but they would prefer to stay with her.

I'm aware that she is making a contribution, but so is he. As it stands, their mortgage is 2200 per month, which he pays, plus another 1000 for bills and maintenance. While I think it is fair to recognize her contribution, I don't think it is fair that she insists that the status quo remains for her, while he is essentially left a pauper with 200euro per week to live on. There should be some meeting in the middle surely.

In addition to which she also has her social welfare plus her x numbers of hours she works unofficially every week which gives her cash in hand.

OldNotWIse

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Well I am assuming that might prevent us from getting a mortgage together in the future?

Bob24

OldNotWIse wrote: »

His ex doesn't work due to illness

OldNotWIse wrote: »

she works unofficially every week which gives her cash in hand.

Don’t go anywhere close to making financial commitments which involve that woman in any way. From the sound of it she’s already defrauding the taxpayer, and if she is why wouldn’t she do the same with her ex husband?

To be honest I think you are in a tricky situation. It is understandable that your partner wants to cater for his children but from you previous post it seems like their mother is no the most trustworthy individual. Getting you involved in buying a house for her to live in is definitely a no go, but I would go further and say you need to find a way for him to support the kinds while ringfencing yourself (and to some extend himself) from possible unreasonable requests or hostile actions on her side.

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Big Bag of Chips

Op, I really really hope that you are here just thinking out loud rather than either of you are seriously considering any of these suggestions. If this man has even suggested any of the above to you you need to run a mile. His separation and whatever agreement they come to is between him and her, and really to ensure the fairest deal for both (of them - you are irrelevant in their separation) then they need to independently seek legal advice. Either through their own solicitors or by availing of a mediation service.

I can't help feel, like some posters have already mentioned, there is a little bit of enabling going on here. You sound more like his mother trying to organise him and sort him out, than an equal partner. His separation, and his wife's future intention are nothing to do with you. Nothing. And if you start taking them on as your own, then you can be damn sure they will let you take responsibilty and who do you think will get caught in the crossfirewhen things get messy?

Step back from it. Completely.

Tell him to get proper legal advice - he is in a complicated situation and your involvement in trying to find a solution will only further complicate things. You say you've given him a kick up the arse to get himself sorted - it looks like you need to give him another.

I know it's your relationship but I can see you spending your life "giving him a kick up the arse to sort stuff out". But then, maybe you're happy being in the role of "mammy" to him? Personally, I'd find that very tedious after a while.

3DataModem

Above advice is sound. Keep yourself out of it.

Colser

ONW you should make an appointment with a solicitor on your own and let him explain the pitfalls to you,the legalities around any break up never seem fair depending on which side you are on.Also I really hope you're not financially contributing to any of the existing arrangements,I'm not being smart but you're probably still in the "honeymoon" period with him and not thinking straight.
Stay well out of their mess and drama and protect yourself and your assets.
Best of luck and put yourself first in all of this.

Big Bag of Chips

Colser wrote: »

put yourself first in all of this.

This. This by a thousand!!

Because from experience you know he won't put you first! She certainly won't care about considering the implications on you. So you are the only one who can look out for your own welfare.

Its difficult when you're a nice person and you want to help others, to be comfortable with putting yourself first. But you have to look after you own interests and your own assets. He has never put you first. Never. And even now, if you've discussed anything in this thread and if he has made any such suggestions then, again, his ex wife and the impact on her is still being considered above you. You're still a bit down his list of priorities.

Unanimous

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Just wondering...if he takes a mortgage with the ex what happens to his new family? would he take another mortgage if he has new kids with OP? The ex is also not willing to work so she will be a financial burden on him and OP.
I would walk away because getting a mortgage would limit his ability to start a new family and make commitments. OP will have to keep enduring or take the burden.

LegacyUser

She's refusing to work. But she works?

bee06

Oliver Schon wrote: »

Why can't his ex work, her kids are old enough to look after themselves during the day.

It says it in the OP, due to illness.

Bob24

bee06 wrote: »

It says it in the OP, due to illness.

OP also said the ex is working and getting paid in cash.

UsBus

Bob24 wrote: »

OP also said the ex is working and getting paid in cash.

Christ I'd rather stay single than have to deal with any of that....life is hard enough without putting that sort of hassle on yourself..

orthsquel

OP your partner's ex is not your problem. You are not responsible for her, nor responsible for her finances or responsible for providing a solution for her that works.

Why are you making your partner's ex your problem? She isn't, so don't make her a problem that you're to provide a solution for. And don't be pushed into taking some sort of responsibility for what are her wants and decisions. The smartest solution is now the property is out of negative equity, to sell and be done with it. Not make it messy and complicated because she wants the children to have some inheritance (which they would probably sell the moment they have it).

You're not involved in any of this about the family home, but you are being involved. You need to stop all involvement in this delusion of what she wants and how far your partner wants to cater for it.

If your partner's ex needs a roof over her head, that's to be worked out with the solicitors, with Social Welfare, and whatever other services. You're not responsible for that.

I would suggest that you tell your partner as sympathetic as you are to your partner's ex's situation, that you tell him that you are not taking any responsibility or financial responsibility for her, her children, her life, her earnings or putting a roof over her head. It is not your problem and not your responsibility but hers. And the first port of call of dealing with the family home is through the solicitors as part of the divorce. Even afterward, come what may, you're not to get involved or take any responsibility for her and housing her, it is not your problem and I'd urge you not to make it your problem.

Big Bag of Chips

It's one thing to take on a partner's children from a previous relationship. It's another thing entirely to take on responsibility for their ex too.

Ursus Horribilis

I am wondering if you've made a rod for your own back by moving him straight from the family home into your place.

Big Bag of Chips

OldNotWIse wrote: »

An idea we've had is for him and me to buy a small house in the area so that we are getting a mortgage between us rather than him and her, agree as part of the divorce that she gets to remain there until the kids are finished full time education, at which point she leaves and possibly gets a % of the proceeds of the house to reflect the time she has spent at home caring for them. Presumably there would be also a smaller maintenance payment on top of that.

I think it ticks all the boxes:

Kids have an inheritance
Ex gets to live rent free until they are independent

Talk me through this.

So, she lives there until her children are finished full time education and gets a percentage for staying at home "caring" for them? Caring for 2 adults? Assuming they go on to 3rd level education, they could be 22/23 leaving full time education - and you'd be ok with YOU paying HER to live rent free in your house "caring" for 2 grown adults?

And then, just like that, on the day the youngest leaves school/college she leaves. With no argument? To go where? To be paid for how? Who would live in the house? The children who needed a full time mother "caring" for them into their adulthood? What if they decide they don't want her to move out but instead stay living with them? Who would be paying the mortgage at that point? Still you and him? You might even have separated yourselves at that point - and he moves back in to "his house" with her and them, because he can't afford somewhere else, and can't afford to buy you out. So now you are still paying a mortgage for 4 fully grown adults to live in your house.

If he thinks he will pay the mortgage in lieu of maintenance - what happens when she comes to him telling him she can't afford enough groceries, or the electricity, or heating, or school uniforms, or school trips, or college registration fees..

And when do the children get their inheritance? When you both die? Or do you hand it over to them when they've left full-time education and become independent? Do they take on the mortgage then, fresh out of college, just starting in jobs, or do you continue paying the mortgage for them? What if you have your own family? Where do they fit in?

These are just a tiny fraction of the questions that will arise from such an agreement.

You would be nuts, absolutely nuts to even consider tying yourself to a mortgage, so your partner's ex wife can live rent free for possibly the next 10 years! Why do you think in any way, shape or form that is your responsibility?

Either he's an absolute fool, or he believes you are.
Either way it's not good.

fallen01angel

No no no no no no......
OP, everyone here is on the same wavelength....... Getting a mortgage with your partner when there's so much "drama" for lack of a better word would be quite frankly incredibly foolish.

You currently have a house,which you and him are in why would you even consider taking on a 2nd mortgage when YOU don't need one,it's not your responsibility to make sure his ex and kids are housed,it's his and his ex's.

To be honest you said you gave him the kick up the bum to make decisions regarding his ex/your relationship at Christmas, that was only 5 months ago,way too early to even consider saddling up with such financial burdens!!!

Just out of curiosity, does he contribute equally financially to your mortgage/bills?

suicide_circus

Nothing to add other than that this scheme is pure lunacy and I think you're aware of that. Do not get financially involved.

Big Bag of Chips

Just incase you are still not convinced - think about it this way. You take out a mortgage. You repay the mortgage (50/50 with your partner?). But you get zero benefit from owning that house. His wife gets to live in it free of charge, and when that arrangement comes to an end (if it ever does) you pay her off (after she has spent 10 year living there rent free!) and the house is then given to his children. (Any potential children you might have in the future would not be entitled to any claim on that house, because it would have been previously agreed, as part of the divorce that the house goes to their 2 children). He is effectively asking you to hand over €100,000+ to his ex wife and children, with nothing in return. No repayment. Nothing to show for it. Can you afford to just give away over €100,000?

So he benefits, she benefits, his children benefit - what about you?

Can you not see, he may have moved out of the family home - but he is still not making you a priority. If anything he is using your kind nature to make sure the rest of his family are prioritised ahead of you. I really do hope he is stupid rather than conniving,

Paddy Cow

OldNotWIse wrote: »

Does this sound like a good idea?

No. It's insane. Why on earth would you pay half a mortgage only to have nothing to show for it at the end? If you break up, you're still tied financially and legally. You are not responsible for this mans ex and children. Do yourself a favour and walk away from this whole mess before it gets even messier.

FizzleSticks

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OldNotWIse

Ehhhh?? wrote: »

She's refusing to work. But she works?

Works unofficially cash in hand, several hours a week I believe - but what she earns is her own for girly holidays, going out with her fella, shopping etc. It's still him that has to take care of all the finances.

Big Bag of Chips

So she CAN work and contribute to her own children's "inheritance". But she chooses not to, and instead they both expect you to pick up her slack and financially provide, not only for his children, but for her too.

And you believe this "ticks all the boxes".

They saw you coming, OldNotWIse!

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LegacyUser

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+ 1 He needs to do everything via the courts. Above board and clearly documented so there can be no back tracking 5, 10 years down the line. As has been said several times on this thread he's divorce and arrangements for after it with his ex are his to sort out and you should be getting involved beyond emotional support. He needs to step back from the obsession of leaving an inheritance for the kids for now and focus on the here and now. Get the divorce sorted, let the courts decide what he needs to pay rather than you offering a crazy deal to his ex.

You should only get involved miles down the line from here if you decide to have kids together or buy a property together as you will then need to seek legal advice on what impact if any his divorce/kids have on it.

Meauldsegosha

OldNotWIse wrote: »

Works unofficially cash in hand, several hours a week I believe - but what she earns is her own for girly holidays, going out with her fella, shopping etc. It's still him that has to take care of all the finances.

And would her fella be living rent free in the house you are buying for her?

OldNotWIse

Meauldsegosha wrote: »

And would her fella be living rent free in the house you are buying for her?

Presumably not as he is married :rolleyes::(

thank you all for your advice!

Bob24

OldNotWIse wrote: »

Presumably not as he is married :rolleyes::(

thank you all for your advice!

Ah one more interesting piece of news :-) ... I presume you know the whole situation is very messy and something is wrong with what your partner and their wife are expecting from you and that you wanted to hear it from many people on this thread to get confirmation from people who are not emotionally involved.

It sounds like you are a “too nice” kind of person. I am not saying this as criticism and you don’t need to change the way you are - empathy is good - but you really need to make sure your understanding of other people’s problems doesn’t get them to take advantage of you.

Emme

OP you need to talk to a solicitor ASAP. Don't buy ANYTHING with your boyfriend because his ex is playing very clever by not being able to work due to illness. You could end up getting really screwed and not in a nice way.

Tell me how

Emme wrote:

OP you need to talk to a solicitor ASAP. Don't buy ANYTHING with your boyfriend because his ex is playing very clever by not being able to work due to illness. You could end up getting really screwed and not in a nice way.

If talking to a solicitor, listen very carefully to the risks/dangers involved.

Don't mislead the solicitor in to thinking you want specific advice on how to proceed down a particular path. That's very different to an open conversation about potential pitfalls.

Tell me how

OP, the advice here is overwhelmingly (if not exclusively) suggesting to stay out of any financial contribution on your part to solve your bf's family issues. That's with with you likely being as positive as you can be about yere relationship. We all do that. We look very optimistically towards what we want.

I suspect that the reality would enforce the advice to stay out of the issues your bf and his ex are having.

What do your friends, family tell you?

Big Bag of Chips

It'd be a non-runner anyway. No divorce agreement is going to allow him to offer anything to his wife/children that they don't jointly own or that he owns exclusively. So he cannot buy a house with you, and then offer it to his wife in the divorce agreement in lieu of maintenance. And I would hope any solicitor worth his salt would spot that a mile off.

On the other hand he may ask you to buy it with him, contribute to the mortgage but keep your name off the deeds...

Wabbit Ears

Its insane he is paying the mortgage and being broke because of it. This affects you directly and it's not even your fight.

They need a clean (as possible in ireland) split. As sentimental as it is the house needs to be sold. The mortgage closed and any money left over split.


Will the kids loose inheritance? Yea. Probably. But there's still a long life to lead and life throws many curveballs so, in reality, it's pointless to use that as a overriding decision maker. Its is a point to consider. But not really any more than a consideration.

Also, op. From an outside point of view you've stated a dozen things or so in this thread alone that are relationship dealbreakers for most people.

As your random internet stranger financial advisor all of this, especially the relationship, is a bad investment for you. Walk away.