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Does this sound reasonable - divorce and mortgage

OldNotWIse

Looking for some objective advice.

I am in a relationship with someone who has begun divorce proceedings. They have been separated for 6 years, but were living together until recently in separate parts of the house, due to negative equity.

We have just moved into (my house).

His ex doesn't work due to illness and there are 2 children - age 15 and 11. The family home is only just out of negative equity so they could just sell and walk away.

She wants to remain in the area for the kids, doesn't want to rent as the kids wont have an inheritance,and wont work. I'm struggling to reconcile her absolute unwillingness to compromise on anything but so it is.

He is likely to end up paying around 1600 pm in maintenance.

She wants him to take on a new mortgage so that she can have somewhere to live with the kids that is not a rental property. She wont qualify for a mortgage on her own. I think this is ridiculous - why take on a new mortgage with your ex?

An idea we've had is for him and me to buy a small house in the area so that we are getting a mortgage between us rather than him and her, agree as part of the divorce that she gets to remain there until the kids are finished full time education, at which point she leaves and possibly gets a % of the proceeds of the house to reflect the time she has spent at home caring for them. Presumably there would be also a smaller maintenance payment on top of that.

I think it ticks all the boxes:

Kids have an inheritance
Ex gets to live rent free until they are independent
We are investing in the future for us and his children by paying a mortgage rather than him paying maintenance and it being used to pay rent.

Does this sound like a good idea?

Really interested to hear people's views on this, or if anyone has done anything like this or been in a similar situation - and thank you!

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qwerty13

First off, he needs to get his maintenance issues sorted legally. Properly.

Secondly - and this is not legal advice - but I know that you have to present statements of your bills/outgoings for a legal separation, and divorce. I think you should check how him having moved into your house impacts this.

Thirdly. It’s a feckin mess OP. Are you sure that your to continue to be in the middle of this storm?

Lastly - I am so so glad you’ve seen the light re not tying you finances / financial future for the next 25 years to his ex. Not your problem, not your responsibility, not your burden

Cash_Q

OldNotWIse wrote:

Tempted to put the brakes on and say, "call me when you have this mess sorted".

You say this along with another previous suggestion of walking away along with a previous thread about ending things.

You really should consider if you want to be with him at all. You wouldn't even consider ending things if you were totally secure and happy.

As others have said, the queries you raise in your first post are ludicrous. Why would you fund her lifestyle. Mortgage and debt are more legally binding than a marriage in my view.

I know you are trying to find a way to make things work - you shouldn't have to. If it works it works, if it doesn't, why force it? What on earth is he bringing to your life?

Walk away. Let him figure out his own mess. If you're really meant to be together it'll happen once he sorts his old life out. Don't put your life on hold for him.

OldNotWIse

He had his solicitor appointment - and it looks like he's done for.

Because of her illnesses, she can't be compelled to sell the family home, and if he goes to court, he will likely end up paying the full mortgage, an allowance to her and maintenance for the kids. So she gets to stay living in her big house and not having to pay anything towards it while he covers the mortgage of 2200, she gets her social welfare, children's allowance, will get an allowance from him plus maintenance. She won't work. She won't rent.

And we will be left both working our backsides off to keep her in the life she is accustomed to - with bleak prospects for the future.

I've got to give this serious thought...

woodchuck

OldNotWIse wrote: »

And we will be left both working our backsides off to keep her in the life she is accustomed to - with bleak prospects for the future.

I've got to give this serious thought...

Yes, you should give this some very serious thought.

This may be his future, but it doesn't have to be yours. I don't mean to sound callous, but you have to think about your own future and what you want from it. This probably sounds very cold, but even if you love him, a long term future with him may not be practical...

Paddy Cow

OldNotWIse wrote: »

He had his solicitor appointment - and it looks like he's done for.

Because of her illnesses, she can't be compelled to sell the family home, and if he goes to court, he will likely end up paying the full mortgage, an allowance to her and maintenance for the kids. So she gets to stay living in her big house and not having to pay anything towards it while he covers the mortgage of 2200, she gets her social welfare, children's allowance, will get an allowance from him plus maintenance. She won't work. She won't rent.

And we will be left both working our backsides off to keep her in the life she is accustomed to - with bleak prospects for the future.

I've got to give this serious thought...

That does not sound right at all. He's either outright lying to you or misunderstood the solicitor. I can accept that she can't be compelled to sell the home but I don't accept that she gets to keep all her money plus loads more from him. I'm not a lawyer and this is not legal advice but the norm from what I know is that the judge looks at the income and outgoings for both parties before making a ruling.

I wouldn't trust a word that comes out of your partners mouth. You were in a circular argument over how much he pays and how little she is willing to compromise. To shut you up he went to a solicitor and now he's telling you the exact same thing, only because this is "legal advice from his solicitor", you can't argue anymore.

OldNotWIse

Paddy Cow wrote: »

That does not sound right at all. He's either outright lying to you or misunderstood the solicitor. I can accept that she can't be compelled to sell the home but I don't accept that she gets to keep all her money plus loads more from him. I'm not a lawyer and this is not legal advice but the norm from what I know is that the judge looks at the income and outgoings for both parties before making a ruling.

I wouldn't trust a word that comes out of your partners mouth. You were in a circular argument over how much he pays and how little she is willing to compromise. To shut you up he went to a solicitor and now he's telling you the exact same thing, only because this is "legal advice from his solicitor", you can't argue anymore.

I hate to mention this because I feel I will lose credibility on the basis of having been a total mug, but I am actually a (non practicing) lawyer too :pac: And I thought it was ridiculous too based on my experience and from talking to peers who do practice.

Colser

ONW...this is why he needs to rent his own place as he will have to show the judge where his money is going,he needs his own utility bills etc.also.He will need to show bank statements so be careful with what will show on them.

Paddy Cow

OldNotWIse wrote: »

I hate to mention this because I feel I will lose credibility on the basis of having been a total mug, but I am actually a (non practicing) lawyer too :pac: And I thought it was ridiculous too based on my experience and from talking to peers who do practice.

I think you know it's time to cut your loses and kick him to the curb

Let him sort out his own mess. If he wants to spend all his money on his ex and kids, that's his prerogative but he cannot expect you to fund their lifestyle. Him and his ex will soon realise how unrealistic it is, if he is forced to rent his own place and pay his own bills. You would actually be doing them a favour by throwing him out into reality.

Senature

This doesn't quite add up. If she's too unwell to work, how is she capable of taking care of the kids and being their primary carer? How is she well enough to head off on weekends away? Even if she is his dependent as a result of ill health, the household income now needs to provide for two seperate homes, incl home repairs, utility bills, groceries etc. He could be in a worse position because he is not currently paying for his own seperate home. He needs at least a 2 bedroom place so the kids have a room to sleep in. The costs of this will have to be taken into account. Is he getting or insisting on regular overnight access to his kids? For the sake of his relationship with them he really should be. Also if not it could be interpreted that he has abandoned them all which will not do him any favours in court. From what I've read on this thread so far op I think he is in denial about the break up of his marriage. Understandable as that may be, it's not good for him or you. He needs to take steps to seperate his life and finances from his ex. Get a new home, have his salary paid into his personal account, make sure he is paying for all his own rent, bills, groceries, car, medical exps etc out of it too so there is a record. Also everything he pays for kids like maintenance, clothes, school exps, activities, presents, holidays etc. He needs to make it clear to the ex that her wish to remain in the house is a non runner if she can't/won't contribute to it financially as he can no longer afford to pay everything he has been paying and they need to figure out a solution. Some people find mediation good for this. In the meantime, he needs to stop paying for so much as this is probably the only way she might see reason. For example the 1000 could become 500-700, and then reduced further over the following months as much as possible. He can explain to her that if she lived somewhere that cost (a lot) less there would be more money for day to day exps. When he is at that point he should get a 2nd opinion on the legal advice. These things take time to get worked out and resolved, but longer when those involved are unwilling to accept their new reality which seems true of both parties in this case.

Senature

It's also possible he went to the solicitor and painted a certain type of picture who then presented a "worst case" scenario which he has now told you. One piece of advice my partner was given: the longer things are a certain way the harder they are to change. By paying for everything and keeping his own expenses artificially low, he is setting himself up to be completely taken for a ride by the ex. Sorry if this is hurtful op, but maybe he is so unwilling to change things or address any of this is because he still hopes they will get back together?

OldNotWIse

Senature wrote: »

Sorry if this is hurtful op, but maybe he is so unwilling to change things or address any of this is because he still hopes they will get back together?

No that is definitely not something that I consider to be remotely possible.

He is saying that as far as solicitor advice went, if he goes to court, he cant be made sell the house, and if he stops paying the mortgage, the debt's on him.

I know that the legal system is unfairly tilted towards women, but even this seems madness. What would happen (hypothetically) if we had a kid? Would it be a pauper?

Senature

Part of the problem is that their financial situation now is not reflective of a seperated/divorced family. Despite them being "seperated" for years, they haven't been living that way as they were both under the same roof. He needs to set up a new home for himself and incur all the expenses involved in doing so. Somewhere he can realistically live in the medium term e.g. an independent house/apartment not a rented room/stay temporarily with a mate/family member/you. Personally I think it should be minimum a 2 bed so the kids can stay overnight with him. Once that is the case, there are two households to split expenses between so a court/judge will be assessing a different situation than if he went in as things stand today where he is living rent free in someone else's house that he is not financially responsible for. It is also why I think it can be good to pay for some of the kids stuff himself rather than just giving their mum money all the time. E.g. if mum says "I need money, I just paid a big electricity bill and Simon needs new football boots" then bring Simon to get football boots and keep the receipt, don't transfer the money to mum. It helps him prove what the actual expenses are, rather than an inflated pie in the sky amount she might claim. And also helps to show that he is a responsible father who is there for and cares for his children which "could" help achieve a more favourable outcome in court.
All this could be moot though. You are the one posting about this online, airing your concerns and discussing possible solutions, not your partner. I understand every one of your worries, but I think your main issue is that your partner seems to be happy enough to maintain the status quo here, despite how unhappy that makes you. It's his actions I'd be putting my attention on if I were you op, not his words. He's been living with her but split up for 6 years? In all that time he didn't think it would be better if he lived elsewhere, even with a friend or in a rented room? Are they even legally seperated? Have any legal wheels been set in motion in any way?

beertons

I think he needs his own rent book. With all the expenses involved.

OldNotWIse

Senature wrote: »

All this could be moot though. You are the one posting about this online, airing your concerns and discussing possible solutions, not your partner. I understand every one of your worries, but I think your main issue is that your partner seems to be happy enough to maintain the status quo here, despite how unhappy that makes you. It's his actions I'd be putting my attention on if I were you op, not his words. He's been living with her but split up for 6 years? In all that time he didn't think it would be better if he lived elsewhere, even with a friend or in a rented room? Are they even legally seperated? Have any legal wheels been set in motion in any way?

He claims that the house is only just out of negative equity, and therefore he wasn't in a position to run two households, and also that it suited him to stay there because he had constant access to the kids. But yes I think the situation, allowed to progress to what it is now, is daft beyond belief.

She is talking now about "downsizing" - how big of her :rolleyes: He'd still be the mortgage holder though. Why she thinks she is above renting is beyond me.

Big Bag of Chips

"Due to her illness" she can't work.

Yet she does work.

I think your partner is either an idiot who doesn't "get" what is being said to him. It he's hoping you're an idiot who will go along with his version.

He needs to live separately to prove his outgoings. He cannot then be reasonably expected to pay more than his income. They will both have to cut their cloth. Or they will both have to move back in together to be able to afford to live.

You are subsiding him, subsiding her. And, just as she will continue to take his money for as long as he is giving it. He will continue to take your money for as long as you are offering it.

Ursus Horribilis

OldNotWIse wrote: »

She is talking now about "downsizing" - how big of her :rolleyes: He'd still be the mortgage holder though. Why she thinks she is above renting is beyond me.

Why on earth would anybody agree to leave their mortgaged home and subject themselves to the basket case that is our rental market? It's not snobbery. It's pure pragmatism.

OldNotWIse

Ursus Horribilis wrote: »

Why on earth would anybody agree to leave their mortgaged home and subject themselves to the basket case that is our rental market? It's not snobbery. It's pure pragmatism.

Of course - she has it so easy, I wouldn't be giving up the free ride either if someone was paying my mortgage of 2200 per month and giving me a grand cash on top of that too.

Ursus Horribilis

She's amenable to downsizing though, isn't she? Which is a more viable option.

sbsquarepants

OldNotWIse wrote: »

He claims that the house is only just out of negative equity, and therefore he wasn't in a position to run two households,.

What difference does negative equity make - the mortgage payments are the same negative or positive?

OldNotWIse wrote: »

She is talking now about "downsizing" - how big of her :rolleyes: He'd still be the mortgage holder though. Why she thinks she is above renting is beyond me.

To be honest with you - his best play is probably if he can sweet talk her in to a deal, then take that deal to the family courts and have it rubber stamped. With them being married and her being "sick" - she is effectively going to be treated as another dependent by the courts - they are very heavily skewed in her favour.

You should be under no illusion that it isn't going to be a big financial burden - potentially for decades. What age are the kids?

SteM

How can the mortgage be €2200 per month? They were a family of 4 so only needed a 3 bed house. What the hell did they buy and how did they get that sort of mortgage if she can't work?

C3PO

OldNotWIse wrote: »

Of course - she has it so easy, I wouldn't be giving up the free ride either if someone was paying my mortgage of 2200 per month and giving me a grand cash on top of that too.

It's not "someone" who is paying her mortgage and bills it's her legally married husband! Based on my own experience and the circumstances as you outline them your partner has really painted himself into a corner by leaving the marital home without thinking this through! This situation will not sort itself out easily nor any time soon!
You need to come to terms with this, OP, and decide whether you can live with the current situation for at least the medium term or whether you should call it a day until your partner sorts his mess out!

C3PO

SteM wrote: »

How can the mortgage be €2200 per month? They were a family of 4 so only needed a 3 bed house. What the hell did they buy and how did they get that sort of mortgage if she can't work?

€2,200 would not be an unusual mortgage in Dublin! Sure, the rent on a 2 bed apartment is typically more than that!

Big Bag of Chips

And why would he change anything when he has you paying for him?!

Is he really great, ONW? He must have something very very special in order for you to put up with all this BS. He sounds very immature. Like he hasn't a clue, or hasn't the guts to stand up for himself. Standing up to her does not have to mean negleting his children. There is a lot being made of her inability to work and earn her own money - yet you say she does work. Do you know that's cash in hand? For definite? All you really have is his word to go on. And to be honest, an awful lot of what he says just doesn't add up. I'd wonder if he ever actually saw a solicitor, and if he did how he presented his case to him. Did he go in and say "I what to separate legally from my wife, and I want to know the best way to go about it" - because no solicitor is going to tell him it can't be done. And that is basically what he came home to tell you.

Honestly, I wouldn't believe much of what he says. And it's easy to make her out to be the bad guy, and I'd bet my own house on it that if the time comes where he has to separate from her properly and not contribute quite so much to her, YOU will be made out (by him) to be the bad guy, making him do all this.

He sounds like a wuss. And a not very reliable wuss, at that.

C3PO

I'm not so sure that the advice that he claims to have got from the solicitor is actually that far off the mark! From the judges perspective, he will be faced with an abandoned wife who's husband has left the marital home and children and moved in with another woman. She has been left to bring up their two school going children. She will presumably be able to "prove" that she is too unwell to work and thus cannot earn an income. Given this scenario I would expect the judge to rule that the wife should continue to live in the marital home at least until the children have finished their education and that the husband should continue to support her financially during this time.
I also suspect that this is what the husband (the OPs partner) actually wants to do!

SteM

C3PO wrote: »

€2,200 would not be an unusual mortgage in Dublin! Sure, the rent on a 2 bed apartment is typically more than that!

We bought a 3 bed in Dublin 24 in April 2007 just before the crash and our repayment is not even half this. If I was the OP I'd be querying this, sounds like this fella is telling porkies imo. How did they get such a big mortgage is the wife can't work?

Paddy Cow

C3PO wrote: »

I'm not so sure that the advice that he claims to have got from the solicitor is actually that far off the mark! From the judges perspective, he will be faced with an abandoned wife who's husband has left the marital home and children and moved in with another woman. She has been left to bring up their two school going children. She will presumably be able to "prove" that she is too unwell to work and thus cannot earn an income. Given this scenario I would expect the judge to rule that the wife should continue to live in the marital home at least until the children have finished their education and that the husband should continue to support her financially during this time.
I also suspect that this is what the husband (the OPs partner) actually wants to do!

That's reasonable to presume. What the op's partner is saying, is that his ex gets to keep her social welfare, children's allowance and cash in hand money. She doesn't contribute any of this money towards the house or kids and uses it for weekends away for herself. She expects her ex to pay the mortgage, bills, allowance to her and maintenance for the kids. That's what posters have issues with. Her ex is willing to go along with that and he is making out his solicitor said the same thing.

I know courts can favour the woman but I don't see any judge saying "sure you can keep all your money for going away and your ex can cover absolutely everything else". It's madness. For some bizarre reason the op's partner is willing to go along with this but it's crippling the op financially. Sooner or later the op's partner is going to have to stand up to his ex and tell her to cop on. She is also responsible for her children and should be providing for them financially. Children's allowance is NOT meant for parents to go on trips away. It's meant to be spent on the kids, whether that be food, clothing or whatever.

C3PO

I'm not arguing about the rights and wrongs of the situation PC but I do think that the OP needs to come to terms with the distinct possibility that the situation will not change materially for herself and her partner for at least the foreseeable future! And nobody has so far mentioned the crippling costs of divorce proceedings if it's an acrimonious/adversarial situation!

OldNotWIse

SteM wrote: »

How can the mortgage be €2200 per month? They were a family of 4 so only needed a 3 bed house. What the hell did they buy and how did they get that sort of mortgage if she can't work?

Big 4 bed house, lots of extra work done on it. Couple of re-mortgages to bail them out because she wasn't working etc....

OldNotWIse

C3PO wrote: »

I'm not arguing about the rights and wrongs of the situation PC but I do think that the OP needs to come to terms with the distinct possibility that the situation will not change materially for herself and her partner for at least the foreseeable future! And nobody has so far mentioned the crippling costs of divorce proceedings if it's an acrimonious/adversarial situation!

That's another thing - apparently the solicitor recommended judicial separation instead of divorce, because she can contest divorce and drag things out

Big Bag of Chips

You haven't answered: what are you getting from the relationship.

Because honestly, we can all post telling you you don't have to accept the situation etc, but if you are happy with him, really happy with him, and you are willing to find a way of making it work for you and him, then that's nobody else's business.

Are you happy?