8th amendment referendum part 3 - Mod note and FAQ in post #1

sabat · 04-05-2018 12:37am

I've made pro-choice posts on boards in the past but I'll be voting no (I might write a comprehensive explanation why in the next few days.) I mentioned this at a social gathering over the weekend and the reaction I got was as if I had whipped down my pants and taken a sh1t on the table, so I won't be doing that again. I imagine there are a lot of people who are keeping their intentions to themselves until the ballot box.

_Dara_ · 04-05-2018 12:39am

sabat wrote: »

I've made pro-choice posts on boards in the past but I'll be voting no (I might write a comprehensive explanation why in the next few days.) I mentioned this at a social gathering over the weekend and the reaction I got was as if I had whipped down my pants and taken a sh1t on the table, so I won't be doing that again. I imagine there are a lot of people who are keeping their intentions to themselves until the ballot box.

I guess people were surprised.

applehunter · 04-05-2018 12:48am

Pro life poster wanders into After Hours 8th Amendment Thread.

Rjd2 · 04-05-2018 1:22am

_Dara_ wrote: »

Maybe but I think any comparison to those elections is shallow. It jumps off the tongue but what basis is there really for thinking that this will be the same? And towards the end, Brexit was predicted to be very close. Which it was. People forget that.

Brexit also had a lot of the media behind it such as Dacre and Murdoch. The most popular politician in the UK Johnson backed it and its appeal was to many such as the elderly, libertarians,hardline Tories, those concerned about immigrants and it a lovely opportunity to tell Cameron to **** off.

As you said leave was very close in the polls. I don't think yes is a cert, but not seen enough to suggest it will lose.

RobertKK · 04-05-2018 2:30am

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/apr/07/ireland-abortion-vote-trump-style-backlash-liberal-elite-patrick-mccabe

One of Ireland’s most critically acclaimed novelists has warned that the country’s referendum on abortion in May could be a “Brexit/Trump” moment for Ireland, exposing similar divisions between rural voters and city-dwellers.

Patrick McCabe, the author of bestsellers The Butcher Boy and Breakfast on Pluto, both made into feature films, said there was a danger that sections of the “metropolitan media in Dublin” could alienate voters in rural constituencies and help usher in a no vote against abortion reform.

“The referendum is going to be interesting, and it is going to be tight. The Dublin media look upon the people from places such as where I am from like ‘local colour’; they are the types who they’d like to have at the party but would never like to see them having a ring around their daughter’s finger. They look down on these people for their uncouthness and boorishness; they say the same kind of things that their media counterparts in America would say about the deep south.”

The Yes vote is pushed by the establishment which will lead to some backlash.

He added: “I really don’t like this finger-wagging from the media elite. I don’t like the primness of it, and the liberals are very good at this primness. Maybe that is what the boy in the tractor in the rural parts of Ireland will look on and say, ‘If you keep wagging that finger, I will bite it off.’”

_Dara_ · 04-05-2018 3:57am

That’s nice. Still nothing but an opinion.

pitifulgod · 04-05-2018 5:08am

thee glitz wrote: »

Not a whole lot at all, but you'll have your perpetually effected SJWs voting Yes, the same as for the SSM referendum. Some see this as an extension of the previous, on their crusade against any considerations or limitations.

The case for a No vote in that one was much less clear, especially given the obnoxious proposed legislation should this referendum pass.

I reckon maybe 55% No on this one. It could be higher, can't see it being lower than 45%, and thinking it will be defeated.

So my 70 year old mother is a sjw? She's gonna be delighted, voted yes in this and same sex marriage. In terms of this referendum, she's found it a lot more difficult. But she doesn't believe it's the state's decision to make. She views it as a woman's choice. She was talking to a religious friend of hers who is about same age and was surprised to discover that she's also favouring repeal. So the SJWs must be across the generations so! Both would have voted in favour of the 8th in 83.

Annasopra · 04-05-2018 6:08am

Triceratops Ballet wrote: »

What is the actual position on that, I assume doctors are obligated to report it, but many don't? You'd have to be very trusting of your doctor, I don't know if I'd risk it

No. There is no obligation for a doctor to report it.

erica74 · 04-05-2018 6:08am

thee glitz wrote: »

A reason - yes, but that doesn't mean a good reason. What I meant was that no reason would be required to be given, no justification. Selfishness in a matter of life or death may well be the reason, and that's just fine according to what would be introduced, not that it would need to be declared.

And who gets to decide what is a good reason? What are bad reasons?

applehunter wrote: »

Pro life poster wanders into After Hours 8th Amendment Thread.

Does it feel like that when prochoice posters provide factual evidence and information which basically throws all that you think into a spin?

Annasopra · 04-05-2018 6:09am

ELM327 wrote: »

Generally the UK based student expats would be yes voters so I'd rather overpay for a yes vote tbh

The no side have a full time paid organiser in the UK trying to get no voters home.

Annasopra · 04-05-2018 6:13am

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

There some posts on here last night replying to other posters who stated they support exceptions for rape asking how such exceptions would or could work.

In Iowa a new law has being passed banning abortions from six weeks called the heartbeat bill,, but it does allow for exceptions for rape, to quote from the article.

"" The legislation banning abortion at six weeks has an exception for survivors of rape or incest, but it comes with a few caveats. In order to be allowed to undergo the procedure, the pregnant person would have to report the rape to the authorities or a physician within 45 days of the “incident,” says the bill "" .

https://www.refinery29.com/2018/05/197982/iowa-heartbeat-bill-abortion-ban-six-weeks

What if she doesnt want to report it? What if she is terrified of reporting? Ehat if she is too traumatised to report? What if she feels rapists convictions are so low she doesnt want the trauma of a trial?

Zubeneschamali · 04-05-2018 6:43am

thee glitz wrote: »

you'll have your perpetually effected SJWs voting Yes, the same as for the SSM referendum. Some see this as an extension of the previous, on their crusade against any considerations or limitations.

Of course it is the same fight. It has been the same fight my whole life. That's why the people leading the No side are the same crew as the No side in the SSM referendum, and why when you look at the No groups you find people who are against contraception, divorce, secular schools and sex education, too.

Those issues are not connected by rational arguments, they are connected by a desire to either change Ireland or keep it the way it "always was".

It's why when a change is made, say Divorce which passed by a fraction of 1%, the No side disappears afterwards. I have literally not heard one person since, not one, ever advance any of the arguments against divorce that were all over the debate for 10 years at the time of the referendums.

Because once change happens, these folks have no earthly notion of changing back, they just adopt the new normal and try to prevent us from changing that.

Zubeneschamali · 04-05-2018 6:58am

sabat wrote: »

I mentioned this at a social gathering over the weekend and the reaction I got was as if I had whipped down my pants and taken a sh1t on the table, so I won't be doing that again. I imagine there are a lot of people who are keeping their intentions to themselves until the ballot box.

In real life, yes, of course. Just as a lot of voters with traditional Irish parents and grandparents may have to keep their yap shut at family gatherings.

But that can't explain the poll numbers.

Zubeneschamali · 04-05-2018 7:04am

thee glitz wrote: »

What I meant was that no reason would be required to be given, no justification.

It's gas, you say that as if it is a bad thing, but that is the point.

It's like the No poster (one of the rare inoffensive ones) that says: "If repeal wins, we'll have unrestricted abortion up to 12 weeks". I feel like putting up a poster beside it saying THIS! Vote yes!

04-05-2018 7:10am

sabat wrote: »

I've made pro-choice posts on boards in the past but I'll be voting no (I might write a comprehensive explanation why in the next few days.).

Ah sure if you have your mind made up, probably not much need to write out a long explanation of why.

crustybla · 04-05-2018 7:22am

spookwoman wrote: »

Last night there was a debate organised by the local priest and prolife group here in Waterford. The crowd was made up of about 85% pro life, many people didn't turn up because they felt it was an ambush and from the start you knew who was running it. Those who were part of the organising are also helpers at ICBR the same lot that put up the banners on the quay a few days previous. The speakers were Caroline Simons (prolife) and Fiona de Londras (repeal) and the chair was Sarah McDonald a religious affairs journalist. Most of the Repeal side stayed together at the front (safety in numbers) and 3 times Caroline Simons directly mentioned them. She actually said at one stage that we were well coordinated and texting each other. Many of those there were part or groups and said that they were on twitter of facebook doing a running commentary. 2 prolife people asking questions used the words killers and murders one of them got told off twice and threatened to be removed because they kept interrupting. They wheeled out 3 medical professionals one went off an on long statement and got away with it before he was finally asked did he have a question. He said he didn't want to be an abortionist, which is worrying coming from a medical person because they would probably be putting their own beliefs before the patients health. There was a lot misinformation spread about the bill last night by the prolife side and they were bloody rude.

I watched this debate live and was shocked at how bad Caroline was. She had nothing solid and was more and more all over the place the more desperate she got. Some of her statements were just outrageous. Apparently ffa doesn't exist. Some nutter in the audience educated us by announcing 'a baby is fully formed at 8 weeks, organs and everything'. It was laughable.

daheff · 04-05-2018 7:58am

Having received the refcoms leaflet in the post the other day, have to say I’m not happy with either choice. I dont agree with 8th amendment, but I dont agree with giving the Dail the legislative powers to look after this area. TDs sway with the wind and could (and frequently do) implement bad legislation

ELM327 · 04-05-2018 8:00am

daheff wrote: »

Having received the refcoms leaflet in the post the other day, have to say I’m not happy with either choice. I dont agree with 8th amendment, but I dont agree with giving the Dail the legislative powers to look after this area. TDs sway with the wind and could (and frequently do) implement bad legislation

From the FAQ:

Q: I don't trust politicians. Why should I trust the politicians to legislate?
A: Politicians have a huge amount of power as it stands, but any motion put forward in the Dáil is always put to a vote. Politicians are representative of, and answerable to the people. Technically, politicians could lower the age of consent down to 10 if they wanted, but doing so would be political suicide. They'd be just as likely to raise the cutoff date of abortion.

nozzferrahhtoo · 04-05-2018 8:01am

daheff wrote: »

I dont agree with giving the Dail the legislative powers to look after this area. TDs sway with the wind and could (and frequently do) implement bad legislation

What bad legislation do you fear and, more importantly, why? Even the worst case scenario legislation I have heard anti choice people discuss seems to have little or no real world detriment.

What is your most credible worst case scenario and why does it concern you?

daheff · 04-05-2018 8:04am

ELM327 wrote: »

From the FAQ:

Q: I don't trust politicians. Why should I trust the politicians to legislate?
A: Politicians have a huge amount of power as it stands, but any motion put forward in the Dáil is always put to a vote. Politicians are representative of, and answerable to the people. Technically, politicians could lower the age of consent down to 10 if they wanted, but doing so would be political suicide. They'd be just as likely to raise the cutoff date of abortion.

Thanks. I can read the faqs myself

Thats quite a condescending FAQ answer btw.

While politicians are answerable to the people, its only at the next election.

Electorate can have short memories, so a bad law passed at the start of a 5 year term could be buried the next time an election comes around.

04-05-2018 8:07am

daheff wrote: »

Having received the refcoms leaflet in the post the other day, have to say I’m not happy with either choice. I dont agree with 8th amendment, but I dont agree with giving the Dail the legislative powers to look after this area. TDs sway with the wind and could (and frequently do) implement bad legislation

Politicians make laws all the time. That's their job. I don't understand how people suddenly don't trust them to make law in just this one issue. Smells like an excuse to me, & not a good one.
TDs are their to represent the people. Everyone has a say in legislation.

Look at the water charges, they were changed because the people wanted them to.

NuMarvel · 04-05-2018 8:23am

bubblypop wrote: »

Politicians make laws all the time. That's their job. I don't understand how people suddenly don't trust them to make law in just this one issue. Smells like an excuse to me, & not a good one.
TDs are their to represent the people. Everyone has a say in legislation.

Look at the water charges, they were changed because the people wanted them to.

Same too with the ownership of the new national maternity hospital. That was never going to bring down the government, but they've still done a U-turn on it anyway. And it could even lead to a change in how the state deals with religious voluntary bodies.

When the people make their voice heard, politicians listen. And the people can do that at any time, not just when there are elections.

daheff · 04-05-2018 8:24am

bubblypop wrote: »

Politicians make laws all the time. That's their job. I don't understand how people suddenly don't trust them to make law in just this one issue. Smells like an excuse to me, & not a good one.
TDs are their to represent the people. Everyone has a say in legislation.

Look at the water charges, they were changed because the people wanted them to.

Water charges are a perfect example of how bad and stubborn politicians can be. They only rolled back on the charges because of a long term (over 2 dails) concerted effort, many many marches, demonstrations and abject failure by IW to collect payments.

Nobody wanted water charges yet the politicians pressed ahead with it, tried to buy people off(social welfare grant).

So where you have a much more divided issue such as abortion, can you really tell me that politicians will listen to the loudest shouters? Because i dont see it happening.

Also will these votes be on a party line or on a conscience line in the dail? Because you’ll have mayhem either way.

My view is we should have a vote to
A repeal or keep the 8th
And
If we repeal
Legislate for abortion or constitutionalise it

I’d be voting to constitutionalise it because of my concerns on the politicians working in best interests of politicians rather than the country.

ELM327 · 04-05-2018 8:24am

daheff wrote: »

Thanks. I can read the faqs myself

Thats quite a condescending FAQ answer btw.

While politicians are answerable to the people, its only at the next election.

Electorate can have short memories, so a bad law passed at the start of a 5 year term could be buried the next time an election comes around.

If you read the FAQ then you would/should not have asked the question.

Politicians are bound to those that elect them, and you're delusional if you think politicians are not bound to their electorate for the term.

nozzferrahhtoo · 04-05-2018 8:27am

NuMarvel wrote: »

.

Hey there you seem more informed than me (by far) on the more legal and historical side of the 8th. This summary of the history was just released and I wonder if you could cast your eye over it and suggest anything you think lacked accuracy or nuance, or do you think it was all pretty much on the button.

The woman talks slow, and she is quite understandable at 1.25 or 1.5 speed if you want to save a bit of time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=noYROWhiKlI

daheff wrote: »

I’d be voting to constitutionalise it because of my concerns on the politicians working in best interests of politicians rather than the country.

Did you miss my post above? Just curious because if you are simply ignoring it I can stop asking.

ELM327 · 04-05-2018 8:28am

daheff wrote: »

Water charges are a perfect example of how bad and stubborn politicians can be. They only rolled back on the charges because of a long term (over 2 dails) concerted effort, many many marches, demonstrations and abject failure by IW to collect payments.

Nobody wanted water charges yet the politicians pressed ahead with it, tried to buy people off(social welfare grant).

So where you have a much more divided issue such as abortion, can you really tell me that politicians will listen to the loudest shouters? Because i dont see it happening.

Also will these votes be on a party line or on a conscience line in the dail? Because you’ll have mayhem either way.

My view is we should have a vote to
A repeal or keep the 8th
And
If we repeal
Legislate for abortion or constitutionalise it

I’d be voting to constitutionalise it because of my concerns on the politicians working in best interests of politicians rather than the country.

We have the options from the citizens assembly which are:

Leave it as the inhumane barbaric mess that it is now, or allow the elected representatives of the people decide.

These elected representatives decide how much tax you pay, how late the pubs open, what you may or may not do, but yet you do not see fit for them to legislate on this issue? Delusion. Whether wilful or not I am unsure.

I can tell you something for nothing though, abortion is possibly the most controversial subject in Irish politics so if this is passed - which it looks like it will - and the proposed legislation is passed for 12 weeks (which is by no means guaranteed in a minority government supported by FF who are anti repeal) - no party will propose any changes for a very long time.

If there's a NO vote now, I expect the same referendum again in 3-5 years, but there will be laws against putting lies on billboards and lies on US money being given to one side and not the other.

04-05-2018 8:30am

daheff wrote: »

Water charges are a perfect example of how bad and stubborn politicians can be. They only rolled back on the charges because of a long term (over 2 dails) concerted effort, many many marches, demonstrations and abject failure by IW to collect payments.

Nobody wanted water charges yet the politicians pressed ahead with it, tried to buy people off(social welfare grant).

So where you have a much more divided issue such as abortion, can you really tell me that politicians will listen to the loudest shouters? Because i dont see it happening.

Also will these votes be on a party line or on a conscience line in the dail? Because you’ll have mayhem either way.

My view is we should have a vote to
A repeal or keep the 8th
And
If we repeal
Legislate for abortion or constitutionalise it

I’d be voting to constitutionalise it because of my concerns on the politicians working in best interests of politicians rather than the country.

Actually, I do believe people should pay for their water, & I was pretty disgusted that the government backed down on it. They should have stood their ground imo. However the people shouted & the government listened, that's what should happen in democracy I guess.
There is no way abortion should be in the constitution. Look at the disaster that has happened when they tried to ban it forever via the constitution!

As far as I know, politicians best interests are getting elected & staying in a job, so basically doing what the people wish them to.
I don't have any problem with that, it is their job.

It wasnt me123 · 04-05-2018 8:32am

crustybla wrote: »

I watched this debate live and was shocked at how bad Caroline was. She had nothing solid and was more and more all over the place the more desperate she got. .......

She's a disaster and a proven liar. The No side must be desperate if they are dragging someone with such a terrible public profile out to support Save the 8th.

She's a religious nut and wants to drag Ireland down and back to when the church had all the say.

Triceratops Ballet · 04-05-2018 8:37am

daheff wrote:

My view is we should have a vote to A repeal or keep the 8th And If we repeal Legislate for abortion or constitutionalise it

This is what we are doing

Zubeneschamali · 04-05-2018 9:01am

daheff wrote: »

Electorate can have short memories, so a bad law passed at the start of a 5 year term could be buried the next time an election comes around.

If the electorate doesn't object to a law raising the abortion limit from 12 to 16 weeks (for example), than that's democracy in action.

8th amendment referendum part 3 - Mod note and FAQ in post #1

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