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8th amendment referendum part 3 - Mod note and FAQ in post #1

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    #872
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    The language and emotions around miscarriages need to be looked at as this gives ammo to pro lifers


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    #873
    Ave Sodalis
    Registered Users Posts: 7,548 ✭✭✭Ave Sodalis


    Um isn't both of those things taking some one elses right to their own body?


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    #874
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    Ave Sodalis wrote: »
    Um isn't both of those things taking some one elses right to their own body?
    Theyre suggesting that the thing being aborted is some one else


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    #875
    PhoenixParker
    Registered Users Posts: 2,671 ✭✭✭PhoenixParker


    I disagree.
    In other circumstances we don't force people to donate bits of their body to save the lives of others, we let them make that decision for themselves. It's my body is a perfectly valid argument.


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    #876
    Ave Sodalis
    Registered Users Posts: 7,548 ✭✭✭Ave Sodalis


    A victim of rape or murder does not rely entirely on the rapist/murderer for their entire existence. The rapist/murderer does not lose bodily autonomy due to their victim. The 8th affects more than just abortion.

    Not long ago I posted about a woman on In Her Shoes that was tore apart internally without pain medication as her baby was being born sideways, but because the baby was not distressed, nothing was done. It wasn't even explained to her what was happening. The midwife was happy for her to keep pushing despite what it was doing to her, despite the agony she must have been in. What you are saying is that that woman is comparible to a rapist or murderer because she wanted a choice in the best delivery method for her. Because she might have needed pain meds.

    EDIT: this was in reply to comments that have been deleted by a mod, in case this post makes no sense.


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    #877
    NuMarvel
    Registered Users Posts: 3,279 ✭✭✭NuMarvel


    Ave Sodalis wrote: »
    If I lived closer, I'd nearly draw on some bedsheets with things like "good luck with your appointment today" and "have a nice day" and stand in front of them.

    This is a brilliant idea!

    Any Boardies able to do this? It takes positives to cancel negatives after all.


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    #878
    Hannibal_Smith
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,991 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hannibal_Smith


    suicide_circus wrote: »
    The language and emotions around miscarriages need to be looked at as this gives ammo to pro lifers

    I've debated the topic of miscarriages with pro lifers on another boards forum. They don't care about miscarriages or the miscarried feotus. They only care about a feotus when it comes to abortion.


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    #879
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    erica74 wrote: »
    I just heard on the radio that those disgusting creatures are going to erect those disgusting posters outside our maternity hospitals again today, "just showing the reality". It makes my blood boil.

    While it is unpleasant for the people who have to run that gauntlet for the next 3 weeks and they have my sympathy, I can't help thinking it can only boost the Yes side in the referendum by exposing what disgusting people the prolife side are, and repealing the 8th is forever, not just for 3 weeks.


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    #880
    nozzferrahhtoo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,340 ✭✭✭nozzferrahhtoo


    AllForIt wrote: »
    What I am saying is that from what I have read on this thread and in the media, the arguments for abortion have been abysmal.

    But that is the thing. No one is "arguing for abortion". Whether you are pro choice or anti choice on abortion the fact remains we ALL want less.... ideally no.... abortions happening. If we could live in a society where they not happening and not required, we would likely pretty much all select that society.

    The difference in opinion lies in HOW to attain that ideal. And the Pro Choice side merely believe that not having abortion on Irish Soil, and sending women off to the UK to get it, is not the way to do it.

    Think of it like heart bypass surgery. None of us want people to have to have that. We do everything we can, like healthy eating campaigns, sugar taxes and more to reduce the number of people having them. But there are genuine reasons why people need them, so we have them.

    Abortion should be viewed like that. We can allow it. We can give people that choice. But we should ALSO be doing everything we can to reduce the number of abortion happening to as close to zero as humanly possible.

    And we should do that DESPITE the apparent paradox that the people most against abortion also seem to be the people who are most against the things we can do to reduce it (like contraception, or EARLIER and much more comprehensive sexual education in schools).


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    #881
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    Hannibal_Smith wrote: »
    I've debated the topic of miscarriages with pro lifers on another boards forum. They don't care about miscarriages or the miscarried feotus. They only care about a feotus when it comes to abortion.
    Presumably because a miscarriage is unintentional


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    #882
    PhoenixParker
    Registered Users Posts: 2,671 ✭✭✭PhoenixParker


    suicide_circus wrote: »
    Presumably because a miscarriage is unintentional

    It's also, according to the pro-life crowd, the actual death of a real baby.

    Interesting that they don't treat it as such.

    If you have a stillbirth after 24 weeks the state accords you full maternity leave rights. If there's no difference between an 8 week fetus and a 24 week fetus, why is it acceptable to treat them so differently?


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    #883
    yourdeadwright
    Registered Users Posts: 20,633 ✭✭✭✭yourdeadwright


    kylith wrote: »
    yourdeadwright wrote: »
    But there YES vote might hurt them , people have to realise not everyone has the same beliefs ,
    Put the info out there and let people vote as the chose , Its a personal choice ,
    As iv said my personal choice is not to vote but each to there own
    How will it hurt them?

    No-one will be forced to have abortions. Anyone who doesn't want an abortion will never have to have one.

    Meanwhile if the foetus in my uterus starts to die, even though that death is inevitable, I have to continue to carry it while going back for repeated scans to check if it's dead enough for them to take it out.

    I don't get a say over whether I will have someone stick their hand in me and rupture the membranes to speed up birth.

    I don't get to have a say about whether or not someone can cut my vagina.

    A woman on In Her Shoes the other day told of the agony she went through during labour because the foetus was positioned incorrectly and the midwife did nothing because the foetus wasn't in any distress. The midwife didn't even tell her. Like, never mind the woman who has been damaged internally, she's of secondary concern.

    Put yourself in the shoes of a woman facing childbirth. Would you not be terrified of the 8th?
    Not everyone has the same religious beliefs as you , ( I'm merely pointing out other peoples point of view I'm not saying its correct)


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    #884
    ELM327
    Registered Users Posts: 21,670 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    yourdeadwright wrote: »
    Not everyone has the same religious beliefs as you , ( I'm merely pointing out other peoples point of view I'm not saying its correct)
    Yes and their religious beliefs shouldn't be allowed to force substandard care on people who do not share the beliefs


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    #885
    amcalester
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,121 ✭✭✭amcalester


    ELM327 wrote: »
    Yes and their religious beliefs shouldn't be allowed to force substandard care on people who do not share the beliefs

    Exactly, once person's beliefs should not be more important than another's health.


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    #886
    kylith
    Registered Users Posts: 17,736 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    yourdeadwright wrote: »
    Not everyone has the same religious beliefs as you , ( I'm merely pointing out other peoples point of view I'm not saying its correct)

    What does someone’s religious view have to do with me getting an episiotomy against my will?


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    #887
    Sofiztikated
    Registered Users Posts: 6,995 ✭✭✭Sofiztikated


    I think its important to stay calm, especially in the next couple of weeks.

    The likes of Nasdefi, even though he's banned/left willingly, could be a common position for a lot of people. Don't want and don't like abortion, but misguided in thinking that the 8th somehow makes it all go away.

    He's the likes that could be swayed, and pointing out how and why the 8th affects women that he cares for, right now.

    Again, have conversations with people, don't shout and mock them, that makes people dig their heels in.


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    #888
    yourdeadwright
    Registered Users Posts: 20,633 ✭✭✭✭yourdeadwright


    kylith wrote: »
    yourdeadwright wrote: »
    Not everyone has the same religious beliefs as you , ( I'm merely pointing out other peoples point of view I'm not saying its correct)

    What does someone’s religious view have to do with me getting an episiotomy against my will?
    They may be the reason for some people vote NO, I'm not saying its right but its most certainly a reason why some will vote No


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    #889
    B0jangles
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,951 ✭✭✭B0jangles


    PhoenixParker wrote: »
    It's also, according to the pro-life crowd, the actual death of a real baby.

    Interesting that they don't treat it as such.

    If you have a stillbirth after 24 weeks the state accords you full maternity leave rights. If there's no difference between an 8 week fetus and a 24 week fetus, why is it acceptable to treat them so differently?

    This chimes with something that occurred to me a few days ago.

    If the pro-life team consider a fetus at any stage of development to be 100% equal to a born person, why are they so amazingly casual about using images of deceased people as advertising for their cause?

    They have not asked for, or received the consent of the fetus they consider to be fully the equal of a born person, to use his/her image in this way.

    (Apologies if the following is upsetting for anyone)
    Imagine, if you can, if the pro-choice campaign used images of women who had died as a result of the 8th - not images of them when they were well; images of them after death, still in the condition they were left in at the point of death.

    There would be universal outrage, and rightly so - people are entitled to be treated with dignity in death. Such images would be incredibly harrowing and disturbing for anyone to see; especially so for anyone who knew the deceased, anyone who is currently pregnant, and children.

    The pro-life campaign demonstrably does not believe this to be true of foetuses though; they seem to be perfectly comfortable using images of them in any condition, without even feeling the need to ask for permission to do so.


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    #890
    yourdeadwright
    Registered Users Posts: 20,633 ✭✭✭✭yourdeadwright


    ELM327 wrote: »
    yourdeadwright wrote: »
    Not everyone has the same religious beliefs as you , ( I'm merely pointing out other peoples point of view I'm not saying its correct)
    Yes and their religious beliefs shouldn't be allowed to force substandard care on people who do not share the beliefs
    Your probably correct but its a reason why people will vote no,  I'm a strong belief that religion causes nothing but trouble in this world but that's a different debate ,


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    #891
    kylith
    Registered Users Posts: 17,736 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    yourdeadwright wrote: »
    They may be the reason for some people vote NO, I'm not saying its right but its most certainly a reason why some will vote No

    Which is all the more reason to spread the word that the 8th is about more than abortion: it’s about healthcare for women like me, with wanted pregnancies.


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    #892
    .......
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,057 ✭✭✭.......


    This post has been deleted.


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    #893
    Sofiztikated
    Registered Users Posts: 6,995 ✭✭✭Sofiztikated


    ....... wrote: »
    Came across a HSE booklet this morning in a waiting room - called "Abortion Aftercare".

    In it it states that a woman should receive a medical check up 3 weeks after an abortion whether medical or surgical.

    But how on earth could an Irish woman risk going to a doctor for a check up 3 weeks after a medical abortion if she had obtained the pills over the internet? The fear that the doctor would report her to the Guards and she would face a 14 year prison term would surely put her off?

    I know I wouldn't like to be in that situation, but the right to travel and the right to information is there.

    Which makes the situation truly Irish.


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    #894
    Triceratops Ballet
    Registered Users Posts: 4,894 ✭✭✭Triceratops Ballet


    ....... wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    What is the actual position on that, I assume doctors are obligated to report it, but many don't? You'd have to be very trusting of your doctor, I don't know if I'd risk it


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    #895
    Sofiztikated
    Registered Users Posts: 6,995 ✭✭✭Sofiztikated


    Triceratops Ballet wrote: »
    What is the actual position on that, I assume doctors are obligated to report it, but many don't? You'd have to be very trusting of your doctor, I don't know if I'd risk it

    You'd think after 35 years, and various amendments in the mean time, someone would actually know this information.

    But yeah, voting no will totally make the situation better. /s


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    #896
    ELM327
    Registered Users Posts: 21,670 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    ....... wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.
    It was in my GP's waiting room too.
    But as he is a private GP who doesnt take medical cards and is generally very liberal, I would expect that he would treat a woman in that situation without reporting.

    I'd imagine there's no obligation to report as the woman could legally have procured the abortion in the UK (in accordance with the 12th and 13th amendment).


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    #897
    xckjoo
    Registered Users Posts: 3,356 ✭✭✭xckjoo


    Has anyone else seen people launching GoFundMe pages so they can fly home to vote? Seems very self-involved. The money they raise would be better donated to whichever side of the campaign they support.


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    #898
    gmisk
    Registered Users Posts: 32,292 ✭✭✭✭gmisk


    xckjoo wrote: »
    Has anyone else seen people launching GoFundMe pages so they can fly home to vote? Seems very self-involved. The money they raise would be better donated to whichever side of the campaign they support.
    Yes i agree entirely - its very poor form, there is a facebook group which was setup to help broke students (mainly in UK to fly home)....but some people are now looking to fly home from the US!.....and they are getting funded (including Bus transfers lol)...some snooping around, some of them do not need the money....

    I should also add there are people in the US on the No side with gofundme (similar) pages who are being funded to come here as well....


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    #899
    ELM327
    Registered Users Posts: 21,670 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    gmisk wrote: »
    Yes i agree entirely, there is a facebook group which was setup to help broke students (mainly in UK to fly home)....but some people are now looking to fly home from the US!.....and they are getting funded (including Bus transfers lol)...some snooping around, some of them do not need the money....
    Generally the UK based student expats would be yes voters so I'd rather overpay for a yes vote tbh


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    #900
    gmisk
    Registered Users Posts: 32,292 ✭✭✭✭gmisk


    ELM327 wrote: »
    Generally the UK based student expats would be yes voters so I'd rather overpay for a yes vote tbh
    I have no problem with a broke student getting 50 euro to get a flight home from liverpool (if people want to do that work away).
    But someone wanting (and getting) a grand! to fly home for 5 days from Canada/US (when the flights dont total that!) is kind of taking the piss (especially if they are clearly not a student and clearly not broke!).


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    #901
    ELM327
    Registered Users Posts: 21,670 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    gmisk wrote: »
    I have no problem with a broke student getting 50 euro to get a flight home from liverpool (if people want to do that work away).
    But someone wanting (and getting) a grand! to fly home for 5 days from Canada/US (when the flights dont total that!) is kind of taking the piss (especially if they are clearly not a student and clearly not broke!).

    In fairness anyone paying a grand to someone random in Canada/Us for "flights" has bigger issues with their sanity :D


    Especially when you consider all the religious money that's coming in from North America towards a NO vote, you may be paying someone to vote no and all the damage that brings!


This discussion has been closed.
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