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Belfast rape trial - all 4 found not guilty Mod Note post one

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    #8522
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 68,058 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    JupiterKid wrote: »
    In my early 20s I served on a jury for a (much shorter) rape trial in which the conviction fell apart because the alleged victim’s story changed upon cross examination and was challenged by others at the nightclub before the alleged rape took place and we simply had too much reasonable doubt to secure a conviction against the defendant. Ironically out of the seven women and five men jurors, it was the women who were quicker to doubt the alleged victim’s version of events.

    This whole disgusting, sordid Belfast rape trial shows how a sense of a life of total privilege, self entitlement, “hero” worship among certain impressionable women mixed with low self-esteem, young men who think they they can do and get away with anything and add in a copious mix of a lot of alcohol and More than a few toots of cocaine can lead to such an event.

    IT writer Richie Sadlier has put in much better terms just why the above culture badly needs to change if we are not to have repeat upon repeat of this trial.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/richie-sadlier-belfast-trial-shows-the-problems-in-male-sport-1.3453075


    For the record, I believe Jackson and Olding should never play professional rugby anywhere ever again. They have brought the game into utter disrepute. I played schools rugby for a while and you could see this culture way back then, nigh on 30 years ago.

    Seriously, what needs to stop is these 'go to' phrases like 'brought the game into disrepute'

    It is utter nonsense. Hundreds of thousands of people have enjoyed thousands of minutes of rugby at all levels since these guys were charged and will continue to do so.

    Like everything, lessons need to be learned and put in place, but 'bringing the game into disrepute' is such a meaningless load of rubbish really.


  • Options
    #8523
    BBDBB
    Registered Users Posts: 26,899 ✭✭✭✭BBDBB


    Deleted User wrote: »
    It's hard for me to get to your level- I've had to rent a parachute :p

    You’d make a fair old dent regardless


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    #8524
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 8,856 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    BBDBB wrote: »
    You’d make a fair old dent regardless

    Are you calling me fat?:eek:


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    #8525
    BBDBB
    Registered Users Posts: 26,899 ✭✭✭✭BBDBB


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Are you calling me fat?:eek:

    Let me check with my WhatsApp group for the politically sensitive terminology


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    #8526
    Appledreams15
    Registered Users Posts: 379 ✭✭Appledreams15


    jm08 wrote: »
    Hi Appledreams,

    When you read the comments about you here, you will know you have made the right decision to get out.

    To the rest of you - you should be ashamed of yourselves for attacking her and your bullying attitude.
    Thanks so much! I appreciate it.


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    #8527
    Appledreams15
    Registered Users Posts: 379 ✭✭Appledreams15


    jm08 wrote: »
    Fann Linn wrote: »
    These are so old. If that is all that's upsetting people I don't think Jackson has anything to worry about.

    Here's some more from the 80s prior to internet and Whats app.

    'She's had more pricks than a second hand dart board'.
    'She was so loose it was like throwing a sausage up O'Connel street'.

    You think that was acceptable humour back in the 80s. Debasing other human isn't good humour.
    You are restoring my faith in humanity


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    #8528
    goz83
    Registered Users Posts: 8,034 ✭✭✭goz83


    joe40 wrote: »
    Just out of curiosity, are there any posters here who believes the woman in this case deliberately and consciously lied throughout, with the sole purpose of getting young men sent to jail for a very long time because she didn't like them

    Obviously just an opinion one may have.

    If that were true she would have to be a sociopathic monster.

    I can’t say with absolute certainty, but I don’t think the complainant lied with the sole purpose of yada yada. It’s more likely that if she lied, it was done to try to protect her name and then it all just got out of hand.

    The biggest lie is that someone put this case before the courts and said it had a chance of getting a conviction. The CPS have a lot to answer for.
    Appledreams15 wrote: »
    You are restoring my faith in humanity

    A couple of posts did that? It’s good to know that anyones view can be changed.


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    #8529
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,300 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    how is it debasing, when both sexes are comfortable doing it? It isn't up to you and me.

    You are assuming both sexes are comfortable with it.


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    #8530
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,300 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Seriously, what needs to stop is these 'go to' phrases like 'brought the game into disrepute'

    It is utter nonsense. Hundreds of thousands of people have enjoyed thousands of minutes of rugby at all levels since these guys were charged and will continue to do so.

    Like everything, lessons need to be learned and put in place, but 'bringing the game into disrepute' is such a meaningless load of rubbish really.

    Not sure they have found the rugby so enjoyable up in Ulster recently;)

    Has it escaped your notice that neither Olding or Jackson have been playing representative rugby for the last year or so (whenever they were charged with rape) as they were suspended.


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    #8531
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 68,058 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    jm08 wrote: »
    You are assuming both sexes are comfortable with it.

    Both sexes used it in this case. Both sexes contribute to that page I linked. And I have heard both sexes use it, numerous times.

    You just cannot prove that this is not normal in the culture and behaviour of young people.
    And just like some kids didn't say '****' and ****' when we were young, it doesn't mean a whole pile only that it upsets older more conservative types. T'was always so.


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    #8532
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,300 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Both sexes used it in this case. Both sexes contribute to that page I linked. And I have heard both sexes use it, numerous times.

    You just cannot prove that this is not normal in the culture and behaviour of young people.
    And just like some kids didn't say '****' and ****' when we were young, it doesn't mean a whole pile only that it upsets older more conservative types. T'was always so.

    So, explain why there is an increase in rapes if everything is honky dory. If everyone is seemingly 'up for it', why did PJ's barrister defend PJ by saying that the complainant claimed it was rape because she was upset that PJ rejected her (having had a 3 some with herself and Olding mind).


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    #8533
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 68,058 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    jm08 wrote: »
    So, explain why there is an increase in rapes if everything is honky dory. If everyone is seemingly 'up for it', why did PJ's barrister defend PJ by saying that the complainant claimed it was rape because she was upset that PJ rejected her (having had a 3 some with herself and Olding mind).

    Is there an increase in rapes or reported rapes?
    I think rape has been a feature of our culture for a long long time.
    And nobody said everything is 'honky dory'.

    I am not interested in retrying the case.


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    #8534
    tretorn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,800 ✭✭✭tretorn


    jm08 wrote: »
    Yes, it is bullying. Read over the comments which were way too personal.

    Im laughing here, read the horrible comments she posted about the men acquitted last week.

    Really abusive personal stuff about their appearance.

    Thats ok in your eyes though because she is a woman and she can say anything about men.

    The woman alleging rape can call other women slutty but she gets a free pass too, its ok for her to demean other women like that because she is a w...........


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    #8535
    Try_harder
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,681 ✭✭✭Try_harder


    https://twitter.com/MaxHomo/status/982276502623485952


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    #8536
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,300 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Is there an increase in rapes or reported rapes?
    I think rape has been a feature of our culture for a long long time.
    And nobody said everything is 'honky dory'.

    I am not interested in retrying the case.

    Reported rapes (17% increase) according to this:

    http://www.thejournal.ie/rape-stats-rise-ireland-3929262-Mar2018/


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    #8537
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 68,058 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    jm08 wrote: »
    Reported rapes (17% increase) according to this:

    http://www.thejournal.ie/rape-stats-rise-ireland-3929262-Mar2018/

    People find it easier to report rape, that is a good thing.

    Does anybody know how many rapes actually occur though. No, according to the expert commentary I have listened to.


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    #8538
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 68,058 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Try_harder wrote: »
    https://twitter.com/MaxHomo/status/982276502623485952

    :D:D:D 'all the rugby fans'.

    Mask slipping there.


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    #8539
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,300 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    tretorn wrote: »
    Im laughing here, read the horrible comments she posted about the men acquitted last week.

    Really abusive personal stuff about their appearance.

    Thats ok in your eyes though because she is a woman and she can say anything about men.

    The woman alleging rape can call other women slutty but she gets a free pass too, its ok for her to demean other women like that because she is a w...........

    You are assuming I read those posts (I don't think I did).
    Just because someone else made comments that you regard as offensive doesn't give you the licence to dish out the same abuse.

    Do you not see what is going wrong here with all this tit for tat throwing around of abuse?

    Go ahead and be offended if the complainant referred to the girls 'being slutty', but don't use her usage of those terms to justify the language used in the WhatsApp group. Two wrongs don't make a right.


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    #8540
    erica74
    Registered Users Posts: 2,619 ✭✭✭erica74


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    People find it easier to report rape, that is a good thing.

    Does anybody know how many rapes actually occur though. No, according to the expert commentary I have listened to.

    I'd say it would be difficult to coordinate figures from the various health service personnel (GPs, emergency department staff, caredoc etc), gardai, Tusla and rape crisis centres and ensure there was no double counting.
    Just from my own experience, I told my GP, the rape crisis centre and they reported to Tusla and I'd say a fair few would have done similar. There would want to be very careful examination of data done to ensure accuracy.


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    #8541
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,300 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    People find it easier to report rape, that is a good thing.

    They did up to a week ago. Now they won't bother.
    Does anybody know how many rapes actually occur though. No, according to the expert commentary I have listened to.

    Some info available from the universities. TCD students union reported that 1 in 4 women were sexually assaulted a few years ago. 5% of male students reported assault.

    http://trinitynews.ie/one-in-four-female-tcd-students-sexually-assaulted-survey/

    USI had some info here:
    http://usi.ie/featured/usi-launch-the-say-something-card-after-survey-shows-that-16-of-students-experience-unwanted-sexual-experience/


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    #8542
    Greysquirel09
    Registered Users Posts: 96 ✭✭Greysquirel09


    jm08 wrote: »
    They did up to a week ago. Now they won't bother.



    Ridiculous statement.


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    #8543
    Tsipras
    Closed Accounts Posts: 493 ✭✭Tsipras


    All these 'stats' about rape are nonsense though
    The accuser in this trial would say she was raped and she would would go into the percentage of people who 'were raped' but she wasn't so it's all a load of hot air


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    #8544
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,300 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    Excellent article here on 'Consent'.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/health-family/everything-you-want-to-know-about-consent-but-were-afraid-to-ask-1.3450246


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    #8545
    smallgarden
    Registered Users Posts: 1,617 ✭✭✭smallgarden


    It'd be interesting to see what percentage of women have been in a situation where they've said no to a guy and they've continued their behaviour. Be it sexual harassment, assault or rape.


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    #8546
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,300 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    Tsipras wrote: »
    All these 'stats' about rape are nonsense though
    The accuser in this trial would say she was raped and she would would go into the percentage of people who 'were raped' but she wasn't so it's all a load of hot air

    Some more stats (2013).

    205 defendants were sent to trial. Those trials ended with 35 convictions, and 155 acquittals (17% conviction rate)
    Seventy-three of the accused pleaded guilty, thereby saving the court valuable time, for which they would have received reduced sentences. Of the others charged before the court, 205 defendants were sent to trial. Those trials ended with 35 convictions, and 155 acquittals. In 15 instances, the jury was unable to agree on a verdict.



    One way of interpreting those figures would be that the jury convicted fractionally over 17% of those tried for rape and acquitted 76.6%. Those figures did not take into account 289 other cases. In 106 instances, the State entered a nolle prosequi, and the rape charge was listed as having been taken into consideration in the other 183 cases.

    https://www.irishexaminer.com/viewpoints/ourview/rape-conviction-rate-offers-no-protection-276761.html


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    #8547
    Tsipras
    Closed Accounts Posts: 493 ✭✭Tsipras


    jm08 wrote: »
    Tsipras wrote: »
    All these 'stats' about rape are nonsense though
    The accuser in this trial would say she was raped and she would would go into the percentage of people who 'were raped' but she wasn't so it's all a load of hot air

    Some more stats (2013).

    205 defendants were sent to trial.  Those trials ended with 35 convictions, and 155 acquittals.
    Seventy-three of the accused pleaded guilty, thereby saving the court  valuable time, for which they would have received reduced sentences. Of  the others charged before the court, 205 defendants were sent to trial.  Those trials ended with 35 convictions, and 155 acquittals. In 15  instances, the jury was unable to agree on a verdict.



    One way of interpreting those figures would be that the jury convicted  fractionally over 17% of those tried for rape and acquitted 76.6%. Those  figures did not take into account 289 other cases. In 106 instances,  the State entered a nolle prosequi, and the rape charge was listed as  having been taken into consideration in the other 183 cases.

    https://www.irishexaminer.com/viewpoints/ourview/rape-conviction-rate-offers-no-protection-276761.html
    Exactly - a lot of rape cases seem to court without any evidence and rightly fall apart. Could be even worse now after the social media witch hunt in this case


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    #8548
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,300 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    Tsipras wrote: »
    Exactly - a lot of rape cases seem to court without any evidence and rightly fall apart. Could be even worse now after the social media witch hunt in this case

    No, that isn't the case.
    It has long been recognised that women are reluctant to press rape charges. Although they are protected in relation to publicity, they still have to be prepared to testify in court, and be prepared to endure the embarrassment of being cross-examined by a defence team that will invariably seek to discredit the victim.
    Statistics can be massaged in different ways, but no matter how the figures are presented in relation to rape cases, the rate of conviction appears pathetic.

    The likelihood is that fewer cases were be reported.


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    #8549
    Tsipras
    Closed Accounts Posts: 493 ✭✭Tsipras


    I hope real cases are reported and real offenders rot in jail, but I also hope false accusers think twice about what they are doing


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    #8550
    Mountainsandh
    Registered Users Posts: 6,700 ✭✭✭Mountainsandh


    jm08 wrote: »
    No, that isn't the case.


    The likelihood is that fewer cases were be reported.

    Your second quote is just an opinion and perspective.
    From the perspective of the wrongfully accused, there is just as much hardship in a trial, and often after, as illustrated for the 4 guys of this thread.
    From the perspective of someone who is not guilty, one trial is one too many.

    When I look at the stats above, I think of all these people who have been subjected to a trial for no legally valid reason, as well as the genuine courageous ladies who have to go through a trial for an already traumatic experience.


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    #8551
    upandcumming
    Registered Users Posts: 2,716 ✭✭✭upandcumming


    JupiterKid wrote: »
    They have brought the game into utter disrepute.

    Pure bullshit.


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