Belfast rape trial - all 4 found not guilty Mod Note post one

Appledreams15 · 07-04-2018 08:45PM

jm08 wrote: »

Fann Linn wrote: »

These are so old. If that is all that's upsetting people I don't think Jackson has anything to worry about.

Here's some more from the 80s prior to internet and Whats app.

'She's had more pricks than a second hand dart board'.
'She was so loose it was like throwing a sausage up O'Connel street'.

You think that was acceptable humour back in the 80s. Debasing other human isn't good humour.

You are restoring my faith in humanity

goz83 · 07-04-2018 09:06PM

joe40 wrote: »

Just out of curiosity, are there any posters here who believes the woman in this case deliberately and consciously lied throughout, with the sole purpose of getting young men sent to jail for a very long time because she didn't like them

Obviously just an opinion one may have.

If that were true she would have to be a sociopathic monster.

I can’t say with absolute certainty, but I don’t think the complainant lied with the sole purpose of yada yada. It’s more likely that if she lied, it was done to try to protect her name and then it all just got out of hand.

The biggest lie is that someone put this case before the courts and said it had a chance of getting a conviction. The CPS have a lot to answer for.

Appledreams15 wrote: »

You are restoring my faith in humanity

A couple of posts did that? It’s good to know that anyones view can be changed.

jm08 · 07-04-2018 09:08PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

how is it debasing, when both sexes are comfortable doing it? It isn't up to you and me.

You are assuming both sexes are comfortable with it.

jm08 · 07-04-2018 09:14PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Seriously, what needs to stop is these 'go to' phrases like 'brought the game into disrepute'

It is utter nonsense. Hundreds of thousands of people have enjoyed thousands of minutes of rugby at all levels since these guys were charged and will continue to do so.

Like everything, lessons need to be learned and put in place, but 'bringing the game into disrepute' is such a meaningless load of rubbish really.

Not sure they have found the rugby so enjoyable up in Ulster recently;)

Has it escaped your notice that neither Olding or Jackson have been playing representative rugby for the last year or so (whenever they were charged with rape) as they were suspended.

FrancieBrady · 07-04-2018 09:16PM

jm08 wrote: »

You are assuming both sexes are comfortable with it.

Both sexes used it in this case. Both sexes contribute to that page I linked. And I have heard both sexes use it, numerous times.

You just cannot prove that this is not normal in the culture and behaviour of young people.
And just like some kids didn't say '****' and ****' when we were young, it doesn't mean a whole pile only that it upsets older more conservative types. T'was always so.

jm08 · 07-04-2018 09:26PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Both sexes used it in this case. Both sexes contribute to that page I linked. And I have heard both sexes use it, numerous times.

You just cannot prove that this is not normal in the culture and behaviour of young people.
And just like some kids didn't say '****' and ****' when we were young, it doesn't mean a whole pile only that it upsets older more conservative types. T'was always so.

So, explain why there is an increase in rapes if everything is honky dory. If everyone is seemingly 'up for it', why did PJ's barrister defend PJ by saying that the complainant claimed it was rape because she was upset that PJ rejected her (having had a 3 some with herself and Olding mind).

FrancieBrady · 07-04-2018 09:29PM

jm08 wrote: »

So, explain why there is an increase in rapes if everything is honky dory. If everyone is seemingly 'up for it', why did PJ's barrister defend PJ by saying that the complainant claimed it was rape because she was upset that PJ rejected her (having had a 3 some with herself and Olding mind).

Is there an increase in rapes or reported rapes?
I think rape has been a feature of our culture for a long long time.
And nobody said everything is 'honky dory'.

I am not interested in retrying the case.

tretorn · 07-04-2018 10:43PM

jm08 wrote: »

Yes, it is bullying. Read over the comments which were way too personal.

Im laughing here, read the horrible comments she posted about the men acquitted last week.

Really abusive personal stuff about their appearance.

Thats ok in your eyes though because she is a woman and she can say anything about men.

The woman alleging rape can call other women slutty but she gets a free pass too, its ok for her to demean other women like that because she is a w...........

Try_harder · 07-04-2018 11:00PM

https://twitter.com/MaxHomo/status/982276502623485952

jm08 · 07-04-2018 11:14PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Is there an increase in rapes or reported rapes?
I think rape has been a feature of our culture for a long long time.
And nobody said everything is 'honky dory'.

I am not interested in retrying the case.

Reported rapes (17% increase) according to this:

http://www.thejournal.ie/rape-stats-rise-ireland-3929262-Mar2018/

FrancieBrady · 07-04-2018 11:18PM

jm08 wrote: »

Reported rapes (17% increase) according to this:

http://www.thejournal.ie/rape-stats-rise-ireland-3929262-Mar2018/

People find it easier to report rape, that is a good thing.

Does anybody know how many rapes actually occur though. No, according to the expert commentary I have listened to.

FrancieBrady · 07-04-2018 11:20PM

Try_harder wrote: »

https://twitter.com/MaxHomo/status/982276502623485952

:D:D 'all the rugby fans'.

Mask slipping there.

jm08 · 07-04-2018 11:26PM

tretorn wrote: »

Im laughing here, read the horrible comments she posted about the men acquitted last week.

Really abusive personal stuff about their appearance.

Thats ok in your eyes though because she is a woman and she can say anything about men.

The woman alleging rape can call other women slutty but she gets a free pass too, its ok for her to demean other women like that because she is a w...........

You are assuming I read those posts (I don't think I did).
Just because someone else made comments that you regard as offensive doesn't give you the licence to dish out the same abuse.

Do you not see what is going wrong here with all this tit for tat throwing around of abuse?

Go ahead and be offended if the complainant referred to the girls 'being slutty', but don't use her usage of those terms to justify the language used in the WhatsApp group. Two wrongs don't make a right.

erica74 · 07-04-2018 11:29PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

People find it easier to report rape, that is a good thing.

Does anybody know how many rapes actually occur though. No, according to the expert commentary I have listened to.

I'd say it would be difficult to coordinate figures from the various health service personnel (GPs, emergency department staff, caredoc etc), gardai, Tusla and rape crisis centres and ensure there was no double counting.
Just from my own experience, I told my GP, the rape crisis centre and they reported to Tusla and I'd say a fair few would have done similar. There would want to be very careful examination of data done to ensure accuracy.

jm08 · 07-04-2018 11:42PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

People find it easier to report rape, that is a good thing.

They did up to a week ago. Now they won't bother.

Does anybody know how many rapes actually occur though. No, according to the expert commentary I have listened to.

Some info available from the universities. TCD students union reported that 1 in 4 women were sexually assaulted a few years ago. 5% of male students reported assault.

http://trinitynews.ie/one-in-four-female-tcd-students-sexually-assaulted-survey/

USI had some info here:
http://usi.ie/featured/usi-launch-the-say-something-card-after-survey-shows-that-16-of-students-experience-unwanted-sexual-experience/

Greysquirel09 · 08-04-2018 12:01AM

jm08 wrote: »

They did up to a week ago. Now they won't bother.

Ridiculous statement.

Tsipras · 08-04-2018 12:05AM

All these 'stats' about rape are nonsense though
The accuser in this trial would say she was raped and she would would go into the percentage of people who 'were raped' but she wasn't so it's all a load of hot air

jm08 · 08-04-2018 12:14AM

Excellent article here on 'Consent'.

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/health-family/everything-you-want-to-know-about-consent-but-were-afraid-to-ask-1.3450246

smallgarden · 08-04-2018 12:15AM

It'd be interesting to see what percentage of women have been in a situation where they've said no to a guy and they've continued their behaviour. Be it sexual harassment, assault or rape.

jm08 · 08-04-2018 12:15AM

Tsipras wrote: »

All these 'stats' about rape are nonsense though
The accuser in this trial would say she was raped and she would would go into the percentage of people who 'were raped' but she wasn't so it's all a load of hot air

Some more stats (2013).

205 defendants were sent to trial. Those trials ended with 35 convictions, and 155 acquittals (17% conviction rate)

Seventy-three of the accused pleaded guilty, thereby saving the court valuable time, for which they would have received reduced sentences. Of the others charged before the court, 205 defendants were sent to trial. Those trials ended with 35 convictions, and 155 acquittals. In 15 instances, the jury was unable to agree on a verdict.

One way of interpreting those figures would be that the jury convicted fractionally over 17% of those tried for rape and acquitted 76.6%. Those figures did not take into account 289 other cases. In 106 instances, the State entered a nolle prosequi, and the rape charge was listed as having been taken into consideration in the other 183 cases.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/viewpoints/ourview/rape-conviction-rate-offers-no-protection-276761.html

Tsipras · 08-04-2018 12:19AM

jm08 wrote: »

Tsipras wrote: »

All these 'stats' about rape are nonsense though
The accuser in this trial would say she was raped and she would would go into the percentage of people who 'were raped' but she wasn't so it's all a load of hot air

Some more stats (2013).

205 defendants were sent to trial. Those trials ended with 35 convictions, and 155 acquittals.

Seventy-three of the accused pleaded guilty, thereby saving the court valuable time, for which they would have received reduced sentences. Of the others charged before the court, 205 defendants were sent to trial. Those trials ended with 35 convictions, and 155 acquittals. In 15 instances, the jury was unable to agree on a verdict.

One way of interpreting those figures would be that the jury convicted fractionally over 17% of those tried for rape and acquitted 76.6%. Those figures did not take into account 289 other cases. In 106 instances, the State entered a nolle prosequi, and the rape charge was listed as having been taken into consideration in the other 183 cases.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/viewpoints/ourview/rape-conviction-rate-offers-no-protection-276761.html

Exactly - a lot of rape cases seem to court without any evidence and rightly fall apart. Could be even worse now after the social media witch hunt in this case

jm08 · 08-04-2018 12:26AM

Tsipras wrote: »

Exactly - a lot of rape cases seem to court without any evidence and rightly fall apart. Could be even worse now after the social media witch hunt in this case

No, that isn't the case.

It has long been recognised that women are reluctant to press rape charges. Although they are protected in relation to publicity, they still have to be prepared to testify in court, and be prepared to endure the embarrassment of being cross-examined by a defence team that will invariably seek to discredit the victim.
Statistics can be massaged in different ways, but no matter how the figures are presented in relation to rape cases, the rate of conviction appears pathetic.

The likelihood is that fewer cases were be reported.

Tsipras · 08-04-2018 12:31AM

I hope real cases are reported and real offenders rot in jail, but I also hope false accusers think twice about what they are doing

Mountainsandh · 08-04-2018 12:53AM

jm08 wrote: »

No, that isn't the case.

The likelihood is that fewer cases were be reported.

Your second quote is just an opinion and perspective.
From the perspective of the wrongfully accused, there is just as much hardship in a trial, and often after, as illustrated for the 4 guys of this thread.
From the perspective of someone who is not guilty, one trial is one too many.

When I look at the stats above, I think of all these people who have been subjected to a trial for no legally valid reason, as well as the genuine courageous ladies who have to go through a trial for an already traumatic experience.

upandcumming · 08-04-2018 01:05AM

JupiterKid wrote: »

They have brought the game into utter disrepute.

Pure bullshit.

jm08 · 08-04-2018 01:07AM

Mountainsandh wrote: »

Your second quote is just an opinion and perspective.
From the perspective of the wrongly accused, there is just as much hardship in a trial, and often after, as illustrated for the 4 guys of this thread.
From the perspective of someone who is not guilty, one trial is one too many.

When I look at the stats above, I think of all these people who have been subjected to a trial for no legally valid reason, as well as the genuine courageous ladies who have to go through a trial for an already traumatic experience.

Well, the system doesn't serve anyone well. Interesting to note that while the Republic has a very low conviction rate, they shouldn't even bother in Northern Ireland with a 2% conviction rate (and they don't bring many cases forward for prosecution).

https://sluggerotoole.com/2018/04/07/less-than-2-of-rape-trials-in-northern-ireland-end-in-conviction-why-the-system-needs-reformed/

upandcumming · 08-04-2018 01:13AM

jm08 wrote: »

Well, the system doesn't serve anyone well. Interesting to note that while the Republic has a very low conviction rate, they shouldn't even bother in Northern Ireland with a 2% conviction rate (and they don't bring many cases forward for prosecution).

I can see why they don't seeing as they brought this farce through the courts.

jm08 · 08-04-2018 01:38AM

upandcumming wrote: »

I can see why they don't seeing as they brought this farce through the courts.

The UK has the lowest conviction rate of rape in Europe. As I've posted, NI has a conviction rate of 2% and France has a conviction rate of 25%. Are you claiming that rape rarely happens in Northern Ireland and those that do report it and their cases are brought to court were doing it for the crack?

According to the charity Rape Crisis 85,000 women and 12,000 men are raped each year in England and Wales, and only 15% of victims chose to report the crime to police.

goz83 · 08-04-2018 01:38AM

smallgarden wrote: »

It'd be interesting to see what percentage of women have been in a situation where they've said no to a guy and they've continued their behaviour. Be it sexual harassment, assault or rape.

Why would that be interesting?

It’d be interesting to see what percentage of men would be laughed off the stage if they reported a woman sexually harrassing them. You think men aren’t harrassed or coerced and manipulated by women?

It’s not just men who do these things you know. Women are just as bad and I suspect a tiny number of reports are made by men. Sure its apparently not possible for a woman to rape a man.

goz83 · 08-04-2018 01:41AM

jm08 wrote: »

The UK has the lowest conviction rate of rape in Europe. As I've posted, NI has a conviction rate of 2% and France has a conviction rate of 25%. Are you claiming that rape rarely happens in Northern Ireland and those that do report it and their cases are brought to court were doing it for the crack?

Maybe the rest of europe bring more solid cases to court, giving the higher conviction rates. Imagine if every allegation went to court. Conviction rates would be below 1%. Only solid cases should go to court. Too many he said she said cases clog up the system and imo, discourage genuine cases being reported.

Belfast rape trial - all 4 found not guilty Mod Note post one

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