Belfast rape trial - all 4 found not guilty Mod Note post one

31-03-2018 07:01PM

NAGDEFI wrote: »

So i suppose it's cool to go wander into a house party when you know no one?

Iwouldn't head to a party of girls i didn't know. I wouldn't feel comfortable.

There’s a middle ground. Works for some, doesn’t for others. At that rate, nobody would go traveling alone. There’s still adventures to be had and spontaneity.

suicide_circus · 31-03-2018 07:01PM

Silentcorner wrote: »

I think Not Proven option could be an improvement..

You cannot be serious

Bob_Marley · 31-03-2018 07:02PM

Silentcorner wrote: »

And those are reported figures...we have no idea how many woman (in particular) choose not to go to the authorities....

How can we not look at ourselves...

It's shocking, it just proves there is no real law and order or any real deterrent to crime in this country, north or south.

NAGDEFI · 31-03-2018 07:02PM

Bob_Marley wrote: »

Yes, the root cause of this particular sorry sad mess of a case, where all the lives have been ruined by the unsocial media reporting of the case, is excessive consumption of alcohol, but you were instead endorsing the view of the troll that people can't get raped if they don't get drunk or go to celeb house parties, which is half witted rubbish.

From the one quote i read i elaborated on what i felt were areas males and females could be more responsible. I didn't know he was a troll. I haven't read every post here.

I believe alcohol consumption is something to be aware of. Also i wouldn't like my daughter going to parties with drunk men she didn't know. It's not saying all men are rapists but common sense.

Silentcorner · 31-03-2018 07:03PM

Worried Father wrote: »

I should be able to walk through the park at 3am on my own and not expect to be beaten and robbed. I never take that chance though, even when piss drunk, because it would be stupid and dangerous!

What if someone breaks into your house and assaults you and your wife...destroys your house and robs your car...should you not have bought that beemer?

A lot of young men get attacked by strangers ...way more than young woman...another silent issue in our society...

Most rapes are committed by someone known or familiar to them...

Fann Linn · 31-03-2018 07:03PM

irishrebe wrote: »

It was a rough area. Not at all uncommon to see people fighting, shouting, messing, whatever. At no point did I say it was adjacent to my school. I said it was near my house.

Im not going dragging thru your posts but you said it happened to you and others on a regular basis.
All I asked was what did you or others do or say as it was such a frequent event.
Forget it rebe, i'll put your post down to the realm of hearsay.

NAGDEFI · 31-03-2018 07:04PM

Omackeral wrote: »

There’s a middle ground. Works for some, doesn’t for others. At that rate, nobody would go traveling alone. There’s still adventures to be had and spontaneity.

True enough about travelling. Just i still feel a female heading into an all male party, guys she didn't know.. If the unfortunate girl had the choice again??

Bob_Marley · 31-03-2018 07:04PM

NAGDEFI wrote: »

I believe alcohol consumption is something to be aware of. Also i wouldn't like my daughter going to parties with drunk men she didn't know. It's not saying all men are rapists but common sense.

If she was raped at a house party after getting drunk, would you be telling her she was partially responsible for her own rape ?

irishrebe · 31-03-2018 07:05PM

Worried Father wrote: »

irishrebe wrote: »

I've often ended up in the houses of men, while drunk. Often drinking there. I loved video games as a teenager and a college student and would play for hours and hours while drinking beer or stronger stuff, or having a jam session or sometimes just sitting around talking sh1te like friends do. I lived at home for most of college, so it was fun to go back to people's student houses or halls and do the proper student thing. Quite often I would be the only woman there, or one of two, maybe. Let me get this straight. Are you telling me my behaviour was shameful and I deserved to be raped? I had no legitimate business getting drunk around men?

If you get drunk around strange men and go back their houses on your own, your chances of being raped go up. It's not rocket science.

Right. So what you're saying is, men have so little self control that I can expect them to gang rape me when we have a few drinks on us. You don't see how truly f*cked up that is?

Silentcorner · 31-03-2018 07:05PM

Bob_Marley wrote: »

It's shocking, it just proves there is no real law and order or any real deterrent to crime in this country, north or south.

It is truly shocking...

It is a particularly animalistic crime that can take decades to recover from....

It's never about sex...it's always about power...and it crosses all types and kinds of people....

optogirl · 31-03-2018 07:07PM

NAGDEFI wrote: »

True enough about travelling. Just i still feel a female heading into an all male party, guys she didn't know.. If the unfortunate girl had the choice again??

It wasn't an all male party?

ShowMeTheCash · 31-03-2018 07:07PM

Silentcorner wrote: »

I've already suggested a major one...allow a victim legal representation...

Allowing an independent expert in Sexual Assault to explain how victims can react to assaults...

Banning the parading of womens underwear in court...no reason not to allow the jury request if they feel it is neccessary....

How about you, any other suggestions to improve the deplorable conviction rate other than sticking our heads in the sand????

You keep suggesting men are afraid of women rights..... No I think most people are afraid of down right stupidity.

You bang on about rape numbers but have not suggested one single thing could help with the conviction rates.

Ireland has a better system in that no one gets named unless there is a conviction but there is nothing to suggest this rule does anything in helping convictions numbers.
So let it be asked once again before you call someone else a muppet what do you think would help with convictions?

Most intelligent people under stand why convictions are difficult when it comes to drunken consent in a "he said she said" scenario.......

irishrebe · 31-03-2018 07:08PM

Fann Linn wrote: »

irishrebe wrote: »

It was a rough area. Not at all uncommon to see people fighting, shouting, messing, whatever. At no point did I say it was adjacent to my school. I said it was near my house.

Im not going dragging thru your posts but you said it happened to you and others on a regular basis.
All I asked was what did you or others do or say as it was such a frequent event.
Forget it rebe, i'll put your post down to the realm of hearsay.

I've answered that and more in great detail. I'm not typing it out again because you can't be bothered to read the thread.

irishrebe · 31-03-2018 07:09PM

Worried Father wrote: »

irishrebe wrote: »

Right. So what you're saying is, men have so little self control that I can expect them to gang rape me when we have a few drinks on us. You don't see how truly f*cked up that is?

Yeah there are men out there who will do that. Same as there are men out there who would beat me into a coma for a perceived insult. Most people are decent but there is still scum out there. Hence why I lecture my boys to be safe and sensible.

Most rapes are committed by someone known to the victim. So how do we avoid those?

Bob_Marley · 31-03-2018 07:09PM

Worried Father wrote: »

Yeah it's like Somalia out there

People have to get a fair trial. Since I support the death penalty I firmly believe even the worst scumbag must have a fair trial.

Do you believe 99.8% of officially rape accusations in NI are false ? Do you really think this is an acceptable prosecution rate ? You're family is also at risk. What amazes me is how people are happy with such a sub standard policing and justice system for their society.

NAGDEFI · 31-03-2018 07:09PM

Bob_Marley wrote: »

If she was raped at a house party after getting drunk, would you be telling her she was partially responsible for her own rape ?

No she wouldn't.

If she went to a house party with drunk males she didn't know do you think a different approach to the night out could have been taken by the girl?

retro:electro · 31-03-2018 07:09PM

irishrebe wrote: »

Right. So what you're saying is, men have so little self control that I can expect them to gang rape me when we have a few drinks on us. You don't see how truly f*cked up that is?

Haven’t you heard? Men r trash

NAGDEFI · 31-03-2018 07:10PM

optogirl wrote: »

It wasn't an all male party?

Ok not all male but she wasn't friends with the girls either. Dara Florence was some friend if so.

The Talking Bread · 31-03-2018 07:11PM

Silentcorner wrote: »

I think Not Proven option could be an improvement...

I don't have all the answers...all I know is that the conviction rate needs to be increased...for everyone's sake...

What improvements do you think we should make?

I am merely asking you what do you suggest can be done to "increase rape convictions"?
Surely the "not proven" bar will reduce it more?

I am not the one suggesting there can be improvements. Given that a jury is comprised of a a group of anonymous "everyday" individuals, they can only digest the information given to them and the bar of BRD is an adequate bar, however potentially unfortunate it may prove to the outcome of any given trial. The trial is as much about punishing an accused than it is about giving a sense of justice to rape victims.
You have to also balance her suffering with the potential of unjust suffering for potentially innocent accused if the bar is lowered to accomodate a lower level of proof required.

Consider the case for a moment. And consider the hypothetical notion that you know for sure he is innocent . Now look at the evidence proffered to the jury. Now put that aside for a moment. Do you think the jury would have had sufficient evidence to convict him. And if you do think that, how would you feel if Jackson was convicted, although you know he is innocent (hypothetically) on the strength of that evidence

Nermal · 31-03-2018 07:12PM

A letter writer in the IT today seriously suggests that all juries must be 50:50 men and women, have to be chaired by a 'neutral' (LOL) chairperson and should have 'sufficient experience and competency to process and understand' the case (no doubt they have to take and pass a consent class, right?).

Hugely, hugely dangerous assaults on freedoms we have had since medieval times, casually broached in the paper of record.

Say goodbye to being judged by your peers guys, say hello to a kangaroo court of blue-haired fruitcakes.

Fann Linn · 31-03-2018 07:12PM

Bob_Marley wrote: »

Do you believe 99.8% of officially rape accusations in NI are false ? Do you really think this is an acceptable prosecution rate ? You're family is also at risk. What amazes me is how people are happy with such a sub standard policing and justice system for their society.

I wouldn't use the legal system of a foreign jurisdiction to benchmark our system against.

Silentcorner · 31-03-2018 07:13PM

suicide_circus wrote: »

You cannot be serious

They use it in Scotland...so ya...

ShowMeTheCash · 31-03-2018 07:13PM

irishrebe wrote: »

Right. So what you're saying is, men have so little self control that I can expect them to gang rape me when we have a few drinks on us. You don't see how truly f*cked up that is?

Be irresponsible if you want but let's not try and twists it.
The world has predators, murders, people that will take advantage of you if they get the chance. You seem to what to label these people as "men". And take no responsibility at all.

I would not tell my daughter "Hey love going out tonight? Yeah drink as much as you can and if you meet a strange man, going back to his it totally fine..."

Strazdas · 31-03-2018 07:15PM

NAGDEFI wrote: »

Ok not all male but she wasn't friends with the girls either. Dara Florence was some friend if so.

Correct, she knew nobody at the party.

Her own friend was very upset the following day when she heard what had happened (not entirely sure how the two of them got separated at the original nightclub).

NAGDEFI · 31-03-2018 07:16PM

I'm just leaving my laptop now but thanks to all for the reasoned debate.

I'd just like to conclude with my thoughts that i posted a few days ago.

'This is a really sad story for all concerned. I was about to say no one knows what happened bar the concerned parties. However with the amount of alcohol etc the concerned parties may not know either. You hope the young woman and young men recover to lead lives as normal as possible.

If i was giving advice to a teenager, male or female, going out i think it would be never drink to the extent you are not aware of what's happening around you. Stay with good friends you can trust. Unfortunately young people make mistakes and that's always been the way.

All the various marching groups are only prolonging the misery for all concerned. At the end of the day drink awareness training and also sexual behaviour, pornography versus reality need to be taught to young people.'

Silentcorner · 31-03-2018 07:17PM

The Talking Bread wrote: »

I am merely asking you what do you suggest can be done to "increase rape convictions"?
Surely the "not proven" bar will reduce it more?

I am not the one suggesting there can be improvements. Given that a jury is comprised of a a group of anonymous "everyday" individuals, they can only digest the information given to them and the bar of BRD is an adequate bar, however potentially unfortunate it may prove to the outcome of any given trial. The trial is as much about punishing an accused than it is about giving a sense of justice to rape victims.
You have to also balance her suffering with the potential of unjust suffering for potentially innocent accused if the bar is lowered to accomodate a lower level of proof required.

Well the purpose of justice is twofold...

One, to provide the victim with some sense of justice (less someone takes the law into their own hands)

Two, to provide a deterrent to others.

A Not Proven option would mean a leat the victim could leave the court and not be labelled a lier....it would also allow a jury, that fundamentally believe the victim but do not feel sufficiently convinced enough to convict a person....

Ina civil court the bar is lower....should that be revised up?

Bob_Marley · 31-03-2018 07:17PM

Worried Father wrote: »

Yeah it's like Somalia out there

People have to get a fair trial. Since I support the death penalty I firmly believe even the worst scumbag must have a fair trial.

Somalia, that's your bar for the justice system ?

I don't think you'd be making witty Somalia remarks and smilies if it was one of your own family that was raped and went to the authorities.

It amazes me that people think that a 0.018 % conviction rate for officially reported rapes in NI is ok, and they are happy with that, and think it's going to deliver a good longterm outcome for society.

ShowMeTheCash · 31-03-2018 07:18PM

Silentcorner wrote: »

I think Not Proven option could be an improvement...

I don't have all the answers...all I know is that the conviction rate needs to be increased...for everyone's sake...

What improvements do you think we should make?

You don't have any answers, you want to jump onto a bandwagon do a lot of finger pointing and provide no solutions/alternatives.... Genius!

Pelvis · 31-03-2018 07:18PM

irishrebe wrote: »

Nice twisting of my comparison there. No, it tells us all we need to know that girls can be molested for years in the presence of their parents with nobody noticing

No one has said otherwise, yet you still feel the need to mention it, as if they or I have.

irishrebe wrote: »

but apparently, men beeping, whistling and shouting sexual harassment at minors walking home alone for years is so far fetched that you don't believe it. A couple of other women have confirmed similar harassment. Are they liars too?

Men beeping, whistling, and shouting sexual harassment at a girl every day for years starting when they were 11 is objectively far fetched. Who else is claiming this has happened to them?

drillyeye · 31-03-2018 07:19PM

irishrebe wrote: »

Right. So what you're saying is, men have so little self control that I can expect them to gang rape me when we have a few drinks on us. You don't see how truly f*cked up that is?

Cant be "some men", or "some people". No, it has to be "men", with the implication that its every single male on the planet.

Belfast rape trial - all 4 found not guilty Mod Note post one

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