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Belfast rape trial - all 4 found not guilty Mod Note post one

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    #1112
    AGC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,648 ✭✭✭AGC


    torqtorq wrote: »
    You have missed the point.

    They have been found not guilty in a court law and should be treated as such.

    They should be treated no different to Zebo and Murray.

    While I agree they have been found innocent and should be let move on with their lives it is a very different situation. Never was an accusation made against the Munster lads and they shouldnt even be mentioned here.

    It is no different to sex between any consenting adults, the Belfast case was very different to one of the parties


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    #1113
    markodaly
    Registered Users Posts: 14,019 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    spookwoman wrote: »
    Please enlighten us all on the piece of evidence that proves us that this woman was not raped.


    Brilliant, you want me to prove a negative. Like proving that there is NOT an Easter Bunny. You are not very good at this are you.

    The piece of evidence? The juries decision taken, in under 4 hours.
    Not guilty verdict does not mean they did not do it, it just means there was not enough evidence to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.

    Not guilty, means not guilty in the eyes of the law and the public. I.E they are innocent of wrong doings because there was not enough evidence to convict.


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    #1114
    Weepsie
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 19,941 Mod ✭✭✭✭Weepsie


    monty_python wrote: »
    The case was dismissed due to insufficient evidence

    Different to being found not guilty

    Plus it doesn't mean she lied as so many eejits are claiming. They're nearly the very hardest of cases to prove and why so few move forward and why it will still continue


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    #1115
    Sidebaro
    Closed Accounts Posts: 178 ✭✭Sidebaro


    Luxxis wrote:
    A court of law cares not what you believe. It only cares what you can prove


    Exactly, and rape is quite hard to prove so already victims would be intimidated by reporting it.


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    #1116
    Rodin
    Registered Users Posts: 3,130 ✭✭✭Rodin


    Rodin wrote: »
    The rule of law must be respected.

    Protests like those planned tomorrow remind me of the Salem Witch trials. No respect for due process.
    Innocent until proven guilty? Not in these peoples' eyes.

    Would #Ibelieveher group have believed this liar

    https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.boston.com/news/local-news/2018/02/21/case-continued-for-connecticut-college-student-accused-of-lying-about-rape/amp

    Or this liar

    https://www.google.ie/amp/s/nypost.com/2018/03/27/college-student-pleads-guilty-to-lying-about-rape-on-campus/amp/

    Or this liar

    https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.thelocal.se/20180213/woman-admits-lying-about-malmo-rape/amp

    Or this liar

    https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.theroot.com/woman-who-lied-to-police-about-3-black-men-raping-and-k-1823325223/amp

    I thought 4 was enough. Took about 60seconds to find those 4.

    #innocentuntilprovenguilty


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    #1117
    Faugheen
    Site Banned Posts: 12,341 ✭✭✭✭Faugheen


    stateofflux wrote: »
    Faugheen wrote: »
    You could make the same argument towards those who are saying she's lying when there's no proof that she has, but they don't give a **** about it until it fits their narrative.

    yes but if they were convicted its highly unlikely there would have been a 'she's lying' protest march or a #idon'tbelieveher twitter movement.

    No but there would be many people suggesting that the verdict was wrong. It wouldn't be universally accepted like some would like to say


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    #1118
    NAGDEFI
    Closed Accounts Posts: 755 ✭✭✭NAGDEFI


    torqtorq wrote: »
    You have missed the point.

    They have been found not guilty in a court law and should be treated as such.

    They should be treated no different to Zebo and Murray.


    If you were Joe Schmidt would you be prepared to bring them on in the Aviva? A serious question. Would you expect boos from a large number in the ground.

    I'm not saying it's right or wrong they play with Ireland or Ulster but are they worth the risk?

    Murray/Zebo and girl consent given. No 9 week rape trial, no whatsapp messages.


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    #1119
    Potatoeman
    Registered Users Posts: 4,246 ✭✭✭Potatoeman


    This case had the same problem as the tinder rape case. The friend went to the police and reported it but the story she was told left out some things that made the ‘victim’ look not so innocent. This ment that the reported story did not match from the start and there was reasonable doubt from the start but the police had to press charges as otherwise they would look like they were protecting the accused. The friend should have told the ‘victim’ that she was going to the police before she reported it so she could get the whole story. When I heard the only witness at the party walked in and saw what she though was a consensual threesome the case was over then and there as she was the only witness to see the act.


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    #1120
    Sweetemotion
    Registered Users Posts: 2,497 ✭✭✭Sweetemotion


    Faugheen wrote: »
    No they're not, at all.

    Only 1% of reported rape cases in Ireland end in conviction for the accused. Are you telling me that 99/100 women who report what happened to them to the police are more likely to be lying?

    Don't be that person. It's set out in law that a not guilty verdict doesn't mean a complainants account wasn't believed, just there wasn't enough proof beyond a reasonable doubt.


    Where are people getting this 1% from?

    Noeleen Blackwell speaking on 2fm today said in 2016 of the 404 rape cases brought before the courts, 69% resulted in conviction.


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    #1121
    Strazdas
    Registered Users Posts: 18,139 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    Deusexmachina wrote: »
    I am. She lied. She said she was raped. She said they forced her. She repeated this time and tome again. To the police, to the court.

    But they didnt force her. She lied

    Something can only be a lie if you know it to be untrue.

    If she believes she was raped, then she believes she was raped. This could only be a "lie" if she knew what she was alleging was a totally invented story.


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    #1122
    zom
    Registered Users Posts: 1,908 ✭✭✭zom


    Sidebaro wrote: »
    That is awful wording.

    Also, there are thousands of people around the world that have been sexually abused and told nobody because of the fear of not being believed.

    Yeah sure you know better: https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/dublin-rape-crisis-centre-belfast-trial-opened-up-widening-debate-on-meaning-of-rape-834713.html


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    #1123
    Faugheen
    Site Banned Posts: 12,341 ✭✭✭✭Faugheen


    Rodin wrote: »
    Rodin wrote: »
    The rule of law must be respected.

    Protests like those planned tomorrow remind me of the Salem Witch trials. No respect for due process.
    Innocent until proven guilty? Not in these peoples' eyes.

    Would #Ibelieveher group have believed this liar

    https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.boston.com/news/local-news/2018/02/21/case-continued-for-connecticut-college-student-accused-of-lying-about-rape/amp

    Or this liar

    https://www.google.ie/amp/s/nypost.com/2018/03/27/college-student-pleads-guilty-to-lying-about-rape-on-campus/amp/

    Or this liar

    https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.thelocal.se/20180213/woman-admits-lying-about-malmo-rape/amp

    Or this liar

    https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.theroot.com/woman-who-lied-to-police-about-3-black-men-raping-and-k-1823325223/amp

    I thought 4 was enough. Took about 60seconds to find those 4.

    #innocentuntilprovenguilty

    You know what all of those cases have in common?

    Nobody was charged in connection with rape. These were unravelled by police before anyone was falsely charged.


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    #1124
    markodaly
    Registered Users Posts: 14,019 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    irishrebe wrote: »
    The UK is part of NI? If this is your level of education, no wonder you're so confused.

    Erm, unless there has been a border poll in the last 5 minutes, eh Yes, Northern Ireland IS part of the UK....

    UK-flag-conponants.png

    It is not I who is confused.

    You are aware that abortion is also illegal in Northern Ireland, yes?

    Yes, I am, hence why I said, the UK.


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    #1125
    spookwoman
    Registered Users Posts: 9,922 ✭✭✭spookwoman


    torqtorq wrote: »
    You have missed the point.

    They have been found not guilty in a court law and should be treated as such.

    They should be treated no different to Zebo and Murray.
    No point missed.
    Zebo and murray had a consensual threesome the woman who did not accuse them of rape etc. There was a video made that proves this. also they were not charged and brought before the courts on rape charges.

    Jackson and the others were and even thought they were found no guilty there is still the question of did they actually do it which hangs over them. There is also the stories about their questionable behavior on other occasions. That is why the IRFU and ulster rugby are continuing their investigations/review.
    If the stories of their previous behavior is true no one would want that associated with them.


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    #1126
    the_pen_turner
    Registered Users Posts: 7,506 ✭✭✭the_pen_turner


    Sweetemotion wrote: »
    Where are people getting this 1% from?

    Noeleen Blackwell speaking on 2fm today said in 2016 of the 404 rape cases brought before the courts, 69% resulted in conviction.

    she also came out on newstalk last year that all men are rapists and that in all cases where one person has drink taken then its the mans fault. it doesnt matter if the person with drink is male or female . i wouldnt use her as a standard for anything worth while.


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    #1127
    Sidebaro
    Closed Accounts Posts: 178 ✭✭Sidebaro


    zom wrote:
    Yeah sure you know better:


    ? Think you'll have to explain that a bit better, gone way over my head. What are you referring to?


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    #1128
    Rodin
    Registered Users Posts: 3,130 ✭✭✭Rodin


    Faugheen wrote: »
    You know what all of those cases have in common?

    Nobody was charged in connection with rape. These were unravelled by police before anyone was falsely charged.

    http://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/real-life/true-stories/student-liam-allans-rape-charges-scrapped-after-40000-messages-from-accuser-revealed-in-court/news-story/4d2a6cdb2414427fab5dc69df62d4bc8

    https://www.google.ie/amp/s/nypost.com/2009/12/07/woman-confesses-to-lying-about-rape-story-that-sent-man-to-prison/amp/

    That makes 6 false rape accusations. A man even went to jail in one.


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    #1129
    BrianBoru00
    Registered Users Posts: 1,035 ✭✭✭BrianBoru00


    sporina wrote: »
    how is the jury selected? like 8 men and 3 women - surely it should have been equal gender wise?

    theres a panel of jurors selected at random. Defence and prosecution can object to a certain amount or judge may decide they cannot be impartial (e.g. a man who is an Ulster rugby season ticket holder).

    Should we have gender balance like 6 men and 6 women?
    Should we have 6 Catholics and 6 protestants?
    Should we have 1-2 LBGT people?
    Should we have a traveller?
    The whole point is that you shouldn't be biased and are objective. If you were to go down the route of 50/50 gender then the above combinations may also have to be adhered to and we'd never get to a valid jury


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    #1130
    Donald Trump
    Registered Users Posts: 19,139 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Donald Trump wrote: »
    Not guilty eh?

    Sure poor oul' Al Capone only forgot to pay a bit of his tax

    I mean that's the only thing he was ever convicted of.

    Must mean he never did anything else wrong, yeah?

    And you're just waiting for your indictments to arrive. :pac:

    Presidential pardon losers :P


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    #1131
    mr_edge_to_you
    Registered Users Posts: 3,032 ✭✭✭mr_edge_to_you


    I don’t know who to believe to be honest and don’t know what to make of it. The whole scenario in the bedroom sounds messed up to me.


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    #1132
    Ohmeha
    Registered Users Posts: 1,923 ✭✭✭Ohmeha


    NAGDEFI wrote: »
    If you were Joe Schmidt would you be prepared to bring them on in the Aviva? A serious question. Would you expect boos from a large number in the ground.

    I'm not saying it's right or wrong they play with Ireland or Ulster but are they worth the risk?

    Murray/Zebo and girl consent given. No 9 week rape trial, no whatsapp messages.
    Bigger issue is if anyone is found NOT guilty of any crime should they be entitled to resume their career/profession?

    It's not even up for discussion, of course they should be resuming their Rugby career without any prejudice. There will be implications for the IRFU no matter what their decision but it would set a very dangerous precedent for an employer to sack any man cleared of a crime such as rape

    Their private Whatsapp messages were poor reading but not remotely sackable


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    #1133
    spookwoman
    Registered Users Posts: 9,922 ✭✭✭spookwoman


    markodaly wrote: »
    Brilliant, you want me to prove a negative. Like proving that there is NOT an Easter Bunny. You are not very good at this are you.

    The piece of evidence? The juries decision taken, in under 4 hours.



    Not guilty, means not guilty in the eyes of the law and the public. I.E they are innocent of wrong doings because there was not enough evidence to convict.
    Video evidence could be proof of her not getting raped. Do you have that go to the police..
    Have a read of this from a solicitors about the meaning of not guilty. It's what I've been saying.
    https://businessandlegal.ie/not-guilty-does-not-mean-innocent-in-criminal-law


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    #1134
    Sidebaro
    Closed Accounts Posts: 178 ✭✭Sidebaro


    Grab All Association wrote:
    The text messages she sent read to me like they went through a lot of drafts.

    As someone who has gotten a text like that before from a girl compared to that message, I’m sorry but it does sound scripted.

    It's not exactly the same kind of text as 'where are you?', so if there were a lot of drafts I think it's understandable.

    Not everybody is the same. There's no right and wrong way to send such a message. Just because it didn't seem like the same type message as the girl you know sent doesn't mean that it's automatically 'scripted'. I assume by scripted you mean a lie?


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    #1135
    irishproduce
    Registered Users Posts: 2,814 ✭✭✭irishproduce


    Still don't see the complainer identified.
    On the note of their careers, a # should be setup in support of them like #theirnextcap


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    #1136
    Rodin
    Registered Users Posts: 3,130 ✭✭✭Rodin


    Ohmeha wrote: »
    Bigger issue is if anyone is found NOT guilty of any crime should they be entitled to resume their career/profession?

    It's not even up for discussion, of course they should be resuming their Rugby career without any prejudice. There will be implications for the IRFU no matter what their decision but it would set a very dangerous precedent for an employer to sack any man cleared of a crime such as rape

    Their private Whatsapp messages were poor reading but not remotely sackable

    Should be entitled to compensation if they have lost earnings.


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    #1137
    Sweetemotion
    Registered Users Posts: 2,497 ✭✭✭Sweetemotion


    the_pen_turner wrote: »
    she also came out on newstalk last year that all men are rapists and that in all cases where one person has drink taken then its the mans fault. it doesnt matter if the person with drink is male or female . i wouldnt use her as a standard for anything worth while.


    Just curious at where the 1% came from.

    She sounds like a total whack job. How the hell can someone like that, be Chief Executive of the Dublin Rape Crisis Centre.


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    #1138
    Outlaw Pete
    Registered Users Posts: 10,423 ✭✭✭✭Outlaw Pete


    policy75 wrote: »
    Without saying who is guilty and who is not guilty how was it that the defendants names were all over the news but the accusers name was kept under wraps. Surely that is unfair?

    Agreed... and does anyone know why the witnesses were able to be named in the media? I don't think I ever seen that before and yet all media outlets were openly naming the three female witnesses, for example. Did they wave their anominity or something?


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    #1139
    the_pen_turner
    Registered Users Posts: 7,506 ✭✭✭the_pen_turner


    Sweetemotion wrote: »
    Just curious at where the 1% came from.

    She sounds like a total whack job. How the hell can someone like that, be Chief Executive of the Dublin Rape Crisis Centre.

    i dont know where they pull those open ended percentages from. nobody could guess how many people are raped and dont report or domestic violence or break the rules of the road.


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    #1140
    For Forks Sake
    Registered Users Posts: 11,497 ✭✭✭✭For Forks Sake


    Anyone have an interactive map of Ireland showing the separate jurisdictions and legal systems of NI and RoI? There are a lot of clowns on twitter in need of a basic geography lesson.


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    #1141
    Appledreams15
    Registered Users Posts: 379 ✭✭Appledreams15


    Protests organised all over the country tomorrow now between 12.30 and 13.30


This discussion has been closed.
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