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Belfast rape trial - all 4 found not guilty Mod Note post one

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    #722
    Mr.H
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,861 ✭✭✭Mr.H


    suicide_circus wrote: »
    Which is worse?

    a. That some rapists can walk free

    b. That innocent people are imprisoned

    I hope your joking


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    #723
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 25,611 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    manonboard wrote: »
    https://www.irishexaminer.com/irelan...es-404525.html

    This link has info on the book that suggests that male dominated juries tend to give guilty verdicts more than gender balanced juries.

    It's an interesting counterpoint to the bias jury by gender argument appearing.
    Not wholly surprising either if true but your link doesn't work. :pac:


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    #724
    Donald Trump
    Registered Users Posts: 19,238 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump


    Not guilty eh?

    Sure poor oul' Al Capone only forgot to pay a bit of his tax

    I mean that's the only thing he was ever convicted of.

    Must mean he never did anything else wrong, yeah?


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    #725
    pjohnson
    Registered Users Posts: 23,381 ✭✭✭✭pjohnson


    _Dara_ wrote: »
    True, though anyone who lets that cloud their stance on the 8th is not the brightest penny. I accept that there are plenty of dull pennies around though, sadly.

    People can accept this case and be in favour of repeal. Blithering idiots deciding that you MUST be for gay marriage AND repeal AND I believe them doesn't help any cause. And when two of those are over sticking them onto repeal can only do harm, certainly no good anyway. Plus some flutes on Twitter have said that men shouldn't vote anyway as its a womans issue.

    If repeal fails it will be because of the rabid twitter repealers


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    #726
    Mr.H
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,861 ✭✭✭Mr.H


    Faugheen wrote: »
    Yes, it has.

    People calling her a liar, a slut, this that and everything else when there is just as much proof she is lying than there is that the four lads were guilty.

    Olding wouldn't have apologised to the complainant for the hurt caused by him if she was a liar.

    Except everyone knows the lads names and pictures where very few know hers


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    #727
    Samuel T. Cogley
    Registered Users Posts: 10,684 ✭✭✭✭Samuel T. Cogley


    Faugheen wrote: »
    Yes, it has.

    People calling her a liar, a slut, this that and everything else when there is just as much proof she is lying than there is that the four lads were guilty.

    Olding wouldn't have apologised to the complainant for the hurt caused by him if she was a liar.

    Of course he would. It's entirely possible to have empathy for one's assailant.


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    #728
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 25,611 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Donald Trump wrote: »
    Not guilty eh?

    Sure poor oul' Al Capone only forgot to pay a bit of his tax

    I mean that's the only thing he was ever convicted of.

    Must mean he never did anything else wrong, yeah?

    And you're just waiting for your indictments to arrive. :pac:


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    #729
    whisky_galore
    Registered Users Posts: 15,984 ✭✭✭✭whisky_galore


    david75 wrote: »
    This’ll freak all you fragile Menimists out but there’s rallies tomorrow

    Solidarity rallies to say #IBelieveHer tomorrow at half 12:

    Belfast Courthouse
    Dublin, the Spire
    Limerick, Bedford Row

    Please RT.

    To what end? Overturn a verdict?


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    #730
    pjohnson
    Registered Users Posts: 23,381 ✭✭✭✭pjohnson


    Faugheen wrote: »
    Yes, it has.

    People calling her a liar, a slut, this that and everything else when there is just as much proof she is lying than there is that the four lads were guilty.

    Olding wouldn't have apologised to the complainant for the hurt caused by him if she was a liar.

    Outside of Derry no one knows her. She can live her life happily. The four wrongfully accused have been plastered everywhere names and faces.


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    #731
    Samuel T. Cogley
    Registered Users Posts: 10,684 ✭✭✭✭Samuel T. Cogley


    Mr.H wrote: »
    I hope your joking

    First year law student question I'm sure most never satisfactorily answer after entire careers.


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    #732
    C__MC
    Registered Users Posts: 3,079 ✭✭✭C__MC


    I for one cant get my ahead around the fact people are still backing the girl. If you study the evidence, her account and stories were very much far fetched. Even little things, the exchange of texts to her friends about rape before the alleged the attack, she initially didn't name dara florence, her text messages the next morning after the attack. Of course there is other alleged evidence as well which I wont mention.

    The lads may have lied but they stuck to their stories through out. The usual gibberish was thrown about that they wouldnt take the stand etc, from my sources when they took the stand and were very adamant in there replies to each question asked. No way did they plan a cover up in a cafe the next day. For me they are innocent 100 per cent.

    I will condone the text messages but these are not uncommon for young males.


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    #733
    whisky_galore
    Registered Users Posts: 15,984 ✭✭✭✭whisky_galore


    pjohnson wrote: »
    People can accept this case and be in favour of repeal. Blithering idiots deciding that you MUST be for gay marriage AND repeal AND I believe them doesn't help any cause. And when two of those are over sticking them onto repeal can only do harm, certainly no good anyway. Plus some flutes on Twitter have said that men shouldn't vote anyway as its a womans issue.

    If repeal fails it will be because of the rabid twitter repealers

    The foaming-at-the-mouth element (on both sides) is exactly why I am disengaging and unlikely to be moved to vote either way.


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    #734
    jimgoose
    Registered Users Posts: 20,177 ✭✭✭✭jimgoose


    whisky_galore wrote: »
    The foaming-at-the-mouth element (on both sides) is exactly why I am disengaging and unlikely to be moved to vote either way.

    Do you not have your own view regardless of the hysterical window-lickers of various denominations?


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    #735
    Yer Da sells Avon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,737 ✭✭✭Yer Da sells Avon


    pjohnson wrote: »
    If repeal fails it will be because of the rabid twitter repealers

    Wait til you see the other side...


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    #736
    pjohnson
    Registered Users Posts: 23,381 ✭✭✭✭pjohnson


    whisky_galore wrote: »
    The foaming-at-the-mouth element (on both sides) is exactly why I am disengaging and unlikely to be moved to vote either way.

    Its mostly a battle of which side will do least harm to themselves.


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    #737
    sightband
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 670 ✭✭✭sightband


    manonboard wrote: »
    Me too actually. A fair number of my friends have been raped. I don't encourage reporting it in most of the situations because it's likely to me that it will go no where, and further add more suffering to them already. There needs to be evidence, and not just he said/she said.

    Its sad, but true in my opinion

    A fair number of your friends are getting raped and they come to you looking for advice where you tell them not to report it for their own sake?

    Statistically speaking a fair number of your friends have not been raped, or you have incredibly unlucky friends or you and all your friends are in prison on a wing with a heap of reoffending sex offenders. Or you and your friends have very over active imaginations and this is all a load of bollocks.


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    #738
    jimgoose
    Registered Users Posts: 20,177 ✭✭✭✭jimgoose


    Hapax Legomenon wrote: »
    Wait til you see the other side...

    A lot of them have no broadband, so it's actually not too bad! :pac:


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    #739
    david75
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,611 ✭✭✭david75


    pjohnson wrote: »
    Its mostly a battle of which side will do least harm to themselves.

    You really should read up on the pro life arguments.

    Fvckin bat**** loons engaging in campaign suicide almost entirely.


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    #740
    Colsin91
    Registered Users Posts: 67 ✭✭Colsin91


    This whole case saddens me terribly. There are so many young lives ruined. And the carnage invariably spreads to all families involved.

    I realise that my own personal convictions about the case are arbitrary. These # movements are just based on people’s beliefs about a matter. Possessing a belief in favour or against a particular view does not make it any more true or false. The truth is that none of us know, or will ever know what happened for sure that night.


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    #741
    Edgarfrndly
    Registered Users Posts: 489 ✭✭Edgarfrndly


    I haven't followed this case thoroughly. Does anybody know why a guilty verdict wasn't returned? I've no doubt the guys were real sleazeballs, with no respect for women - but what's less clear to me is if they actually raped her. I only ask because twitter has returned a guilty verdict. So many women on there are certain they are guilty.

    I'm open to the possibility that they were, but was there any specific evidence that stood out?


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    #742
    AllForIt
    Registered Users Posts: 8,336 ✭✭✭AllForIt


    I find all that twitter stuff somewhat disturbing if not also disgusting because this case for me in the history of any court case I have ever followed has had an outcome that was so obvious one would really need to question the critical faculties of anyone who though it go any other way. Just under 4 hours of deliberation for a case that lasted 9 weeks is nothing. This shows there was simply nothing to argue over and the fews hours spent deliberating were simply spent going thought the motions. I think by the end of the case you could clearly see that the 3 accused weren't looking concerned, or guilty for that matter, rather just releaved it was almost over.


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    #743
    Pelvis
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,758 ✭✭✭Pelvis


    I hadn't been following the trial and only looked up the whatsapp texts today to see what was said. I must admit that it raised a red flag immediately how flippantly she had told friends that she was raped, literally sending to a friend at 9.51am: "worst night ever, so I got raped.", and then 20 minutes later sending to another friend: “So I got raped by 3 Ulster ****ing rugby scum brilliant ****ing night.”.

    It just strikes me as... odd.


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    #744
    topper75
    Registered Users Posts: 5,942 ✭✭✭topper75


    Gael23 wrote: »
    There are no winners here. This woman’s reputation has been ruined, as had Paddy Jackson’s career,

    Are there really no winners though? Ask yourself - if this was a free legal aid job by some unknown, would it have ran as long as it did in court?


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    #745
    feargale
    Registered Users Posts: 8,636 ✭✭✭feargale


    spurious wrote: »
    Well there you go. Two hours not long to discuss I would have thought.

    They have had all of eight weeks to discuss it.


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    #746
    Malayalam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,188 ✭✭✭Malayalam


    jimgoose wrote: »
    Do you not have your own view regardless of the hysterical window-lickers of various denominations?

    Sorry to interrupt a serious thread, but ''hysterical window-lickers''...hahaha!... that's a wonderful phrase :D


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    #747
    Mr.H
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,861 ✭✭✭Mr.H


    Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »
    First year law student question I'm sure most never satisfactorily answer after entire careers.

    Surely its an obvious answer though

    if you prefer that 1 innocent person gets jailed then you are not following the heart of the law "innocent until proven guilty".

    The law has to be about proving guilt rather than innocence.

    So yes every time I would prefer 10 guilty people to go free because we cant let innocent people pay for crimes they didnt commit.

    Unfortunately certain movements are still calling guilty


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    #748
    strandroad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,676 ✭✭✭strandroad


    Edgarfrndly wrote: »
    I haven't followed this case thoroughly. Does anybody know why a guilty verdict wasn't returned? I've no doubt the guys were real sleazeballs, with no respect for women - but what's less clear to me is if they actually raped her. I only ask because twitter has returned a guilty verdict. So many women on there are certain they are guilty.

    I'm open to the possibility that they were, but was there any specific evidence that stood out?

    It was a she said he said type of situation. Not enough evidence to remove reasonable doubt.


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    #749
    Vicxas
    Registered Users Posts: 15,304 ✭✭✭✭Vicxas


    Christ, social media is a sh1tstorm right now...


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    #750
    MojoRisinnnn
    Registered Users Posts: 354 ✭✭MojoRisinnnn


    Vicxas wrote: »
    Christ, social media is a sh1tstorm right now...

    As opposed to when?


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    #751
    Faugheen
    Site Banned Posts: 12,341 ✭✭✭✭Faugheen


    I just want to point out that I 100% agree with the verdict but only based on the evidence. Both sides hold inconsistencies.

    Hers you could put down to trauma (find me a race victim who remembers every single detail of their ordeal).

    The fact that the 4 defence barristers all cross-examined the accused tells you the inconsistencies in their story.

    Olding put it down to perception. While she may not have been consenting, there is nothing even in her account that suggests that Olding knew that.

    Personally I think the most likely situation is that nobody remembers the full ins and outs of what happened that night. Olding and Mcilroy in particular had a **** load of drink taken.

    However, all of the above just shows that the not guilty verdict is the correct one because there is so much reasonable doubt. It does not mean that Jackson and Olding still committed rape, but it doesn't mean she was lying either.


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