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Body of Alan Hawe to be exhumed

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    #812
    dense
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,175 ✭✭✭dense


    nice_guy80 wrote: »
    This story is just baffling from start to finish

    To think there could be others out there, living normal family lives with the potential to do such damage.

    They say that you never really know anyone.

    It's probably true.


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    #813
    SharleenF17
    Registered Users Posts: 4 ✭SharleenF17


    I know a guy. He's very funny and very witty, tells a great story. Life and soul of every party, always the first with a joke or a hilarious tale to have everyone laughing. Absolutely devoted father. Does every activity you can think of with his child - swimming, music, sports - he does it all. He's involved in Parents Associations, committees. Takes a day off work for his child's birthday, a play or the start of a new school year.

    This guy, he's generous. He'll always give the most money at a fundraiser, or put a fifty into a birthday card. This guy has also pulled a chunk of hair out of a family member's head, simply because he did not want her "interfering" with his child's routine. Yes, it was reported, no, nothing was done as it would have caused "embarrassment on the family". This guy roars and screams at his elderly father. To the outside world, he is a dote. A laugh, a "great fella". Would make a "lovely husband for any woman". Yet he commands members of his family as though he were an Army Sergeant. He makes decisions and his word is the last word. He is very, very careful about maintaining his reputation outside the family. His mask only slipped in front of me when I had known him for about 10 years. He did not know I was in the house.

    Eventually, most of the family just stopped talking to him. And he's fine with that - he gets to rule his little kingdom, his routine with his child and his father going along with it "say nothing, say nothing". His brothers have said things, done things - but his father will defend him until his dying day. "leave him be" he'll say. "sure he's not well in the head, leave it, for peace sake". There is nothing we can report. Who will listen if we say "X comes in shouting and roaring" or "X doesn't want other people around the house" or "X is controlling". His father wouldn't go against him because the neighbours might talk.

    This isn't uncommon in Rural Ireland. Where Alan Hawe lived would have had a similar kind of attitude - "say nothing, say nothing". Maybe Clodagh was "saying nothing" to make the outside world think hers was the perfect family. My point is that there are people out there who can be the life and soul of a party, maintaining a very normal (even enviable) lifestyle - while behind closed doors they are calculating, manipulative and controlling. I do believe Hawe was one of those people. I don't believe that this can be attributed solely to a psychotic episode, given that one of the definitions of psychotic is "not of sound mind". He was very meticulous for a guy supposedly not of sound mind.

    But anyway - does it matter at this stage? They're all gone, an entire family wiped out. I don't think any "reason" would bring comfort to anyone at this point. Speculating on why his parents weren't there or what the "sexual issue" was (The Sun aren't known for their honesty, by the way so I wouldn't dwell on that one). I don't pray but I'll light a candle and think of Clodagh, Liam, Niall and Ryan when I'm sitting with my family on Christmas Day.


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    #814
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,009 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    McCrack wrote: »
    In particularly infamous or gruesome murders the murderer or murderers will often be well remembered

    Think mark chapman, moors murderers, ted bundy etc

    Nothing particularly unusual at that

    I didnt say it was unusual at all. But we dont have to make it usual.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #815
    splinter65
    Registered Users Posts: 9,420 ✭✭✭splinter65


    jobbridge4life wrote: »
    This is a very important point. It seems to be a recurring point in this thread that the fact the Hawe appears to have put some planning into his horrific crimes somehow precludes the notion that mental health issues were involved. People appear to be attached to the notion that unless one is a screaming, raving, stereotypical lunatic you can't have been suffering from a psychotic break. This is just obviously not true. Unfortunately there are countless examples of people suffering from delusional beliefs committing terrible actions, even while functioning in a relatively normal way.

    One or two in this thread insisting “well Aunty Mary was depressed but she never went on a murderous rampage therefore two professors of Psychiatry are wrong and I, as usual, am right!”.
    It’s disheartening to say the least.


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    #816
    McCrack
    Registered Users Posts: 2,968 ✭✭✭McCrack


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    I didnt say it was unusual at all. But we dont have to make it usual.

    Well thankfully these type of things dont happen all that usually so when they do its normal to remember the incidence and the killer/s many years after the fact


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    #817
    jobbridge4life
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,759 ✭✭✭jobbridge4life


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    I didnt say it was unusual at all. But we dont have to make it usual.

    Isn't that a bit of wishful thinking? I mean realistically a person who butchers his entire family is going to stand out in our memories. Just like the villians from stories?


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    #818
    Omackeral
    Registered Users Posts: 32,956 ✭✭✭✭Omackeral


    dok_golf wrote: »
    In interesting that in the case of Maire ( could be Mary) Keegan in Dublin in 2005, that she got public sympathy.

    I find women, or mothers anyway, get sympathy or understanding a hell of a lot easier than men do when perpetrating crimes of this nature.


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    #819
    Electric Sheep
    Registered Users Posts: 2,105 ✭✭✭Electric Sheep


    Jase Late Clergywoman wrote: »
    No it wouldn't. You just don't have to say it at all on a public forum out of consideration for his traumatised parents. You can think it, but publicly proclaiming it is totally different.

    His parents are dealing with the fact that he murdered his wife and children. I doubt that some comments on the internet are going to traumatise them more than that. Playing the Irish "speak no ill of the dead" is not going to change the facts.


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    #820
    jobbridge4life
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,759 ✭✭✭jobbridge4life


    Electric Sheep wrote: »
    His parents are dealing with the fact that he murdered his wife and children. I doubt that some comments on the internet are going to traumatise them more than that. Playing the Irish "speak no ill of the dead" is not going to change the facts.

    No they probably won't, but is there any need to add to their misery?
    Mutant z wrote: »
    The only thing what should be done is to set his rotting corpse on fire and flush the ashes down the toilet into the sewer so the rats can piss on it.


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    #821
    Hannibal_Smith
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,990 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hannibal_Smith


    I guess if the story reaches even one person who is in desperation and stops them taking drastic action, that would be something. At the very least take out if it that these types of deaths are not okay. They are not an option, or excusable. If anyone has reached, or is close to reaching extreme action, talk to someone. Pick up the phone. Steps like Alan Hawe and others have taken is not an option. It's not an answer and it is not something that will protect you from 'falling from Grace' or protect your family.

    Seeking help and saying what you think is unmentionable, is better than the alternative.


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    #822
    McCrack
    Registered Users Posts: 2,968 ✭✭✭McCrack


    Hannibal_Smith wrote: »
    I guess if the story reaches even one person who is in desperation and stops them taking drastic action, that would be something. At the very least take out if it that these types of deaths are not okay. They are not an option, or excusable. If anyone has reached, or is close to reaching extreme action, talk to someone. Pick up the phone. Steps like Alan Hawe and others have taken is not an option. It's not an answer and it is not something that will protect you from 'falling from Grace' or protect your family.

    Seeking help and saying what you think is unmentionable, is better than the alternative.

    Thats all well and good if a person is suffering from depression or even suicidal ideation for example. Homicidal thoughts rarely feature.

    If someone is experiencing depression or suicidal ideation for instance then yes they should reach out or pick up the phone - that should be encouraged. People in those positions can have rationality to do so.

    If a person is undergoing an acute psychotic episode depending on its type they have lost all rationality and yet appear outwardly normal - they are not going to seek help because they believe whatever thought process they have is the right one - however terrible that may be to you or I. In this case it was murder/suicide


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    #823
    TwilightFan88
    Registered Users Posts: 149 ✭✭TwilightFan88


    Hannibal_Smith wrote: »
    I guess if the story reaches even one person who is in desperation and stops them taking drastic action, that would be something. At the very least take out if it that these types of deaths are not okay. They are not an option, or excusable. If anyone has reached, or is close to reaching extreme action, talk to someone. Pick up the phone. Steps like Alan Hawe and others have taken is not an option. It's not an answer and it is not something that will protect you from 'falling from Grace' or protect your family.

    Seeking help and saying what you think is unmentionable, is better than the alternative.


    Or to make one person (man, woman or a young child) go right enough is enough. To leave a situation where they think they could be the faces plastered all over the papers next week for something similar. Whether that be the person suffering thinking they have no other option, or a person in the controlling/abusive relationship or the child that has to watch it all unfold.

    Had two people in work this week state that they thought this public inquest was just a waste of money that it should just be done privately to the families.

    If it stops one person having a similar fate but drawing attention to things going on in their lives than others might not be aware of then I think it is money well spent.


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    #824
    tayto lover
    Registered Users Posts: 51,652 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    dense wrote: »
    We don't generally condemn the senile for becoming insane, except of course now when their actions abhor us.

    Do you think it is possible that someone was insane say 15/17 years ago and then became sane only to become insane again last year? I mean do you think it can be turned off and on or can someone heal and then relapse again?


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    #825
    Charmeleon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 437 ✭✭Charmeleon


    tayto lover wrote: »
    Do you think it is possible that someone was insane say 15/17 years ago and then became sane only to become insane again last year? I mean do you think it can be turned off and on or can someone heal and then relapse again?

    Yes, you can have an acute psychotic episode and recover to have a normal life. It can re-occur or never come back. Psychosis is not psychopathy, that is a life-long personality disorder.


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    #826
    Muahahaha
    Registered Users Posts: 19,617 ✭✭✭✭Muahahaha


    Did anyone read something about Hawe steeping his feet in bleach? I think it was said he was suffering somatic pain?


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    #827
    tayto lover
    Registered Users Posts: 51,652 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    Charmeleon wrote: »
    Yes, you can have an acute psychotic episode and recover to have a normal life. It can re-occur or never come back. Psychosis is not psychopathy, that is a life-long personality disorder.
    Would explain things that are circulating.


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    #828
    Charmeleon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 437 ✭✭Charmeleon


    tayto lover wrote: »
    Would explain things that are circulating.

    A psychopath with the same intent would be much less likely to kill themselves, they would be enjoying the sympathy after the ‘unfortunate’ death of their family while planning to sell up to a bigger house or looking forward to enjoying a change of lifestyle.


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    #829
    Hannibal_Smith
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,990 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hannibal_Smith


    McCrack wrote: »
    Thats all well and good if a person is suffering from depression or even suicidal ideation for example. Homicidal thoughts rarely feature.

    If someone is experiencing depression or suicidal ideation for instance then yes they should reach out or pick up the phone - that should be encouraged. People in those positions can have rationality to do so.

    If a person is undergoing an acute psychotic episode depending on its type they have lost all rationality and yet appear outwardly normal - they are not going to seek help because they believe whatever thought process they have is the right one - however terrible that may be to you or I. In this case it was murder/suicide

    Hawe did seek help though. Perhaps there was nothing to lead those who treated him to think he was likely to do what he did but who knows whether it was something he had thought about for a time before he did it? And if there is someone out there who has similar thoughts. Talk to someone.


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    #830
    McCrack
    Registered Users Posts: 2,968 ✭✭✭McCrack


    Hannibal_Smith wrote: »
    Hawe did seek help though. Perhaps there was nothing to lead those who treated him to think he was likely to do what he did but who knows whether it was something he had thought about for a time before he did it? And if there is someone out there who has similar thoughts. Talk to someone.

    I understand he had attended a psychologist for some kind of counselling and his GP for stress but there was no clinical diagnosis or intervention.

    His subsequent psychosis did not feature with either the psychologist or gp probably because he was not experiencing it at the time


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    #831
    Hannibal_Smith
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,990 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hannibal_Smith


    McCrack wrote: »
    I understand he had attended a psychologist for some kind of counselling and his GP for stress but there was no clinical diagnosis or intervention.

    His subsequent psychosis did not feature with either the psychologist or gp probably because he was not experiencing it at the time

    Yep...i read that too.

    Only Alan Hawe can know what his thoughts were in advance. So again, if there is anyone out there with any sort of similar thoughts, talk to someone.


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    #832
    Junkyard Tom
    Registered Users Posts: 10,117 ✭✭✭✭Junkyard Tom


    Stuckforcash wrote: »
    I'm more concerned about the tragic event in question than nit picking about the English language because it doesn't suit your agenda.

    What exactly is my agenda?


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    #833
    McCrack
    Registered Users Posts: 2,968 ✭✭✭McCrack


    Hannibal_Smith wrote: »
    Yep...i read that too.

    Only Alan Hawe can know what his thoughts were in advance. So again, if there is anyone out there with any sort of similar thoughts, talk to someone.

    unfortunately when a person is having a psychotic episode they tend not to understand or appreciate their thoughts may be dangerous and therefore lend themselves open to seeking help.

    Have you ever spoken with a person that is psychotic?


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    #834
    brooke 2
    Registered Users Posts: 5,472 ✭✭✭brooke 2


    dok_golf wrote: »
    In interesting that in the case of Maire ( could be Mary) Keegan in Dublin in 2005, that she got public sympathy.

    She also got sympathy from her husband, IIRC.


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    #835
    brooke 2
    Registered Users Posts: 5,472 ✭✭✭brooke 2


    dense wrote: »
    They say that you never really know anyone.

    It's probably true.

    Didn't Hawe's mother-in-law say that, referring to him?


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    #836
    brooke 2
    Registered Users Posts: 5,472 ✭✭✭brooke 2


    McCrack wrote: »
    Well thankfully these type of things dont happen all that usually so when they do its normal to remember the incidence and the killer/s many years after the fact


    Well, the brutal fact is that we would have never heard of his wife or children if he had not murdered them.


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    #837
    brooke 2
    Registered Users Posts: 5,472 ✭✭✭brooke 2


    jobbridge4life wrote: »
    Isn't that a bit of wishful thinking? I mean realistically a person who butchers his entire family is going to stand out in our memories. Just like the villians from stories?

    Exactly.


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    #838
    Hannibal_Smith
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,990 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hannibal_Smith


    McCrack wrote: »
    unfortunately when a person is having a psychotic episode they tend not to understand or appreciate their thoughts may be dangerous and therefore lend themselves open to seeking help.

    Have you ever spoken with a person that is psychotic?

    Should anyone be having similar thoughts or be thinking along similar lines, they should talk to some one and seek help. The alternative is not an option.


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    #839
    McCrack
    Registered Users Posts: 2,968 ✭✭✭McCrack


    brooke 2 wrote: »
    Well, the brutal fact is that we would have never heard of his wife or children if he had not murdered them.

    Yes of course. Im not sure the point your are making however


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    #840
    brooke 2
    Registered Users Posts: 5,472 ✭✭✭brooke 2


    McCrack wrote: »
    Yes of course. Im not sure the point your are making however

    Some people seem to think that Alan Hawe is being mentioned too much. Why wouldn't he be as he was the person who perpetrated the crime of murdering his wife and children?


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    #841
    McCrack
    Registered Users Posts: 2,968 ✭✭✭McCrack


    Hannibal_Smith wrote: »
    Should anyone be having similar thoughts or be thinking along similar lines, they should talk to some one and seek help. The alternative is not an option.

    Wishful thinking unfortunately


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