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Body of Alan Hawe to be exhumed

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    #722
    jobbridge4life
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,759 ✭✭✭jobbridge4life


    demfad wrote: »
    Using a tool to control a spouse or family member is how domestic violence is defined. That can include manipulation as well as violence.

    '"If Clodagh felt she or the boys were in any danger they would've walked out. They wouldn't be there. She felt safe," said Mary'

    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/exclusive-alan-hawe-was-about-to-experience-a-fall-from-grace-clodaghs-family-believes-36070710.html

    From the same article:



    Again a pattern of using tools to achieve control = domestic violence. You dont understand or care to clearly.

    There you go... and as for me twisting the words of the relatives... you seem to have been very selective in recounting the words of the annoynmous relative who in the same article you posted, said the following:[/QUOTE]



    'I concede that when Alan Hawe took up the implements he used to murder his family, he may not have been thinking logically, he was certainly not sane by normal standards.'

    Yes, I have quoted this section before: but lest leave nothing out:[/QUOTE]

    And none of the above is anywhere near as strong as you have been presenting it on this thread. Myself and other posters have repeatedly asked you to provide the source of your intense conclusions and large claims you haven't. You just keep referencing this annoynmous relative, you by their own words, says they have no idea why he did it, and acknowledges that he wasn't sane by normal standards.


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    #723
    dok_golf
    Registered Users Posts: 1,090 ✭✭✭dok_golf


    Wish people would stop saying that pre planning is a sign he wasn't mentally unhinged, unless they are qualified psychologists. Do a bit of research before sweeping statements. Also, I must have missed it, but where is the report that there was domestic violence in that house?? And finally, if there is such a report, does it say which partner was the perpetrator of the violence? ( well seeing as there is so much diatribe being written I may as well join in the speculation )


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    #724
    thierry14
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,480 ✭✭✭thierry14


    dok_golf wrote: »
    Wish people would stop saying that pre planning is a sign he wasn't mentally unhinged, unless they are qualified psychologists. Do a bit of research before sweeping statements. Also, I must have missed it, but where is the report that there was domestic violence in that house?? And finally, if there is such a report, does it say which partner was the perpetrator of the violence? ( well seeing as there is so much diatribe being written I may as well join in the speculation )

    Wish people would stop defending ***** like him

    The man was a piece of ****

    Mentally ill bull**** needs to stop


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    #725
    iamwhoiam
    Registered Users Posts: 16,128 ✭✭✭✭iamwhoiam


    dok_golf wrote: »
    Wish people would stop saying that pre planning is a sign he wasn't mentally unhinged, unless they are qualified psychologists. Do a bit of research before sweeping statements. Also, I must have missed it, but where is the report that there was domestic violence in that house?? And finally, if there is such a report, does it say which partner was the perpetrator of the violence? ( well seeing as there is so much diatribe being written I may as well join in the speculation )

    Yes I know you are being sarcastic but how bloody insensitive to even think or write that down .


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    #726
    IITYWYBMAD
    Registered Users Posts: 1,035 ✭✭✭IITYWYBMAD


    dok_golf wrote: »
    Wish people would stop saying that pre planning is a sign he wasn't mentally unhinged, unless they are qualified psychologists. Do a bit of research before sweeping statements. Also, I must have missed it, but where is the report that there was domestic violence in that house?? And finally, if there is such a report, does it say which partner was the perpetrator of the violence? ( well seeing as there is so much diatribe being written I may as well join in the speculation )

    I don't think that there is a definitive answer anywhere. People are voicing an opinion on an event that is highly unusual.

    By normal, human standards, what he did was evil, I don't see how any person could think otherwise.

    Huge strides have been made in this country, over the past number of years, to allow for mental issues to be discussed openly and without stigma. It's still not perfect, but it's better.

    Alan Hawe may have had mental issues of one degree or another, and his behavior would suggest that he was suffering from some sort of psychosis and possibly narcissism.

    It does not preclude him from being evil, however. You can be "mentally unhinged" and evil. You don't have to be a qualified anything to have that opinion.


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    #727
    c68zapdsm5i1ru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,709 ✭✭✭c68zapdsm5i1ru


    PeterParker957 wrote: »
    His parents are his concern, not mine. He didn't want to read nasty comments on the internet, then probably best not to slaughter his entire family.

    He's not the one reading the nasty comments. And what you post on line and how it affects innocent people caught up in a tragedy is your responsibility.


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    #728
    jobbridge4life
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,759 ✭✭✭jobbridge4life


    thierry14 wrote: »
    Wish people would stop defending ***** like him

    The man was a piece of ****

    Mentally ill bull**** needs to stop

    Was the Director of the Central Mental Hospital defending Hawe?


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    #729
    c68zapdsm5i1ru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,709 ✭✭✭c68zapdsm5i1ru


    demfad wrote: »
    I stated they know he was a domestic abuser as they have said as much albeit that it was hidden. Before the relative came out and up to 3 weeks after the murders they thought he had just snapped. Up until that point they did not know. This is not unusual as most skilled abusers isolate the victim often by gaining confidence with the abusers family.
    Clearly this is what happenned here. You are doing them a disservice to imply that their opinion of Hawe while under his influence was what they believe now.

    Who is 'the relative' that you keep referring to? A close family member, or a third cousin six times removed that some rag dug up and paid to spout rubbish?


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    #730
    PeterParker957
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,177 ✭✭✭PeterParker957


    Jase Late Clergywoman wrote: »
    He's not the one reading the nasty comments. And what you post on line and how it affects innocent people caught up in a tragedy is your responsibility.

    I stand by my opinion that anyone who did what he did, in the manner that he did it is scum and yes, deserves to burn in Hell.

    To say otherwise would be the height of hypocrisy.


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    #731
    dok_golf
    Registered Users Posts: 1,090 ✭✭✭dok_golf


    thierry14 wrote: »
    Wish people would stop defending ***** like him

    The man was a piece of ****

    Mentally ill bull**** needs to stop

    Not defending him, but not attacking him either. The fact is, we don't know what happened. Until we do, everything written here is speculation.


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    #732
    PeterParker957
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,177 ✭✭✭PeterParker957


    dok_golf wrote: »
    Not defending him, but not attacking him either. The fact is, we don't know what happened. Until we do, everything written here is speculation.

    Yes we do. A woman and three kids stabbed in the throat.


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    #733
    jobbridge4life
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,759 ✭✭✭jobbridge4life


    IITYWYBMAD wrote: »
    I don't think that there is a definitive answer anywhere. People are voicing an opinion on an event that is highly unusual.

    By normal, human standards, what he did was evil, I don't see how any person could think otherwise.

    Huge strides have been made in this country, over the past number of years, to allow for mental issues to be discussed openly and without stigma. It's still not perfect, but it's better.

    Alan Hawe may have had mental issues of one degree or another, and his behavior would suggest that he was suffering from some sort of psychosis and possibly narcissism.

    It does not preclude him from being evil, however. You can be "mentally unhinged" and evil. You don't have to be a qualified anything to have that opinion.

    It is a question bosed by El Duerino on this thread and a good one I think, what does the label 'evil' add to our understanding?

    Does it make what he did worse? Was he born evil? Did he become evil? Murdering your family is defacto an evil thing to do, by any common understanding of the word. I just don't get what difference it makes in considering the matter?


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    #734
    dok_golf
    Registered Users Posts: 1,090 ✭✭✭dok_golf


    iamwhoiam wrote: »
    Yes I know you are being sarcastic but how bloody insensitive to even think or write that down .

    What happens if it is proved Hawe was insane? Will you class all of the speculation written above as insensitive then?


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    #735
    jobbridge4life
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,759 ✭✭✭jobbridge4life


    PeterParker957 wrote: »
    I stand by my opinion that anyone who did what he did, in the manner that he did it is scum and yes, deserves to burn in Hell.

    To say otherwise would be the height of hypocrisy.

    How is it hypocritical and who is being hypocritical?


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    #736
    iamwhoiam
    Registered Users Posts: 16,128 ✭✭✭✭iamwhoiam


    dok_golf wrote: »
    Not defending him, but not attacking him either. The fact is, we don't know what happened. Until we do, everything written here is speculation.

    We most certainley do know what happened and I for one will give Clodagh and the three boys the respect to say it was an evil act .Regardless of the mans mental health the act was evil .


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    #737
    c68zapdsm5i1ru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,709 ✭✭✭c68zapdsm5i1ru


    PeterParker957 wrote: »
    I stand by my opinion that anyone who did what he did, in the manner that he did it is scum and yes, deserves to burn in Hell.

    To say otherwise would be the height of hypocrisy.

    No it wouldn't. You just don't have to say it at all on a public forum out of consideration for his traumatised parents. You can think it, but publicly proclaiming it is totally different.


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    #738
    dok_golf
    Registered Users Posts: 1,090 ✭✭✭dok_golf


    PeterParker957 wrote: »
    Yes we do. A woman and three kids stabbed in the throat.

    I meant in respect of Hawe's state of mind and what drove him to commit these terrible acts ( obviously)


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    #739
    PeterParker957
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,177 ✭✭✭PeterParker957


    dok_golf wrote: »
    What happens if it is proved Hawe was insane? Will you class all of the speculation written above as insensitive then?

    Dude, you speculated Clodagh "may" have been the perpetrator of any domestic violence.

    That's so many levels of uncool.


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    #740
    jobbridge4life
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,759 ✭✭✭jobbridge4life


    iamwhoiam wrote: »
    We most certainley do know what happened and I for one will give Clodagh and the three boys the respect to say it was an evil act .Regardless of the mans mental health the act was evil .

    Of course it was. Whether the act was occassioned by psychotic break, a raging domestic abuser, or whatever it is evil. I don't think anyone here is questioning that it is evil.


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    #741
    dok_golf
    Registered Users Posts: 1,090 ✭✭✭dok_golf


    jobbridge4life wrote: »
    Of course it was. Whether the act was occassioned by psychotic break, a raging domestic abuser, or whatever it is evil. I don't think anyone here is questioning that it is evil.

    Exactly,


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    #742
    dok_golf
    Registered Users Posts: 1,090 ✭✭✭dok_golf


    PeterParker957 wrote: »
    Dude, you speculated Clodagh "may" have been the perpetrator of any domestic violence.

    That's so many levels of uncool.

    And everyone else ( with a few exceptions) is speculating the Alan Hawe was evil, a scumbag, that he rots in hell. All I'm trying to point out that no one knows the full story. As someone who suffers from severe depression, these same speculators are the type of people who tell depressives to "cop on" and "snap out of it", without having a ****ing clue as to what it's like to be e.g. suicidal.


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    #743
    c68zapdsm5i1ru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,709 ✭✭✭c68zapdsm5i1ru


    PeterParker957 wrote: »
    Dude, you speculated Clodagh "may" have been the perpetrator of any domestic violence.

    That's so many levels of uncool.

    He was being ironic.


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    #744
    PeterParker957
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,177 ✭✭✭PeterParker957


    Jase Late Clergywoman wrote: »
    He was being ironic.

    Another who has no clue what that word means.

    Thank U Alanis!


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    #745
    c68zapdsm5i1ru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,709 ✭✭✭c68zapdsm5i1ru


    PeterParker957 wrote: »
    Another who has no clue what that word means.

    Thank U Alanis!

    I understand what it means perfectly, thank you.


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    #746
    PeterParker957
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,177 ✭✭✭PeterParker957


    dok_golf wrote: »
    And everyone else ( with a few exceptions) is speculating the Alan Hawe was evil, a scumbag, that he rots in hell. All I'm trying to point out that no one knows the full story. As someone who suffers from severe depression, these same speculators are the type of people who tell depressives to "cop on" and "snap out of it", without having a ****ing clue as to what it's like to be e.g. suicidal.

    We're not speculating that he's anything other than a man who planned the murder of his family.

    Killing the stronger members of the family first to remove a "fight" from others; the notes, the leaving a warning on the door to call Gardai, even the bank account shenanigans are evidence that he was thinking clearly.

    I have deep deep sympathy for anyone suffering depression, I have been there to a much lesser extent.

    But he is scum and to try to find a reason "why", takes away from his guilt or tries to.

    This is not a novel idea but - "SOMETIMES PEOPLE ARE JUST BAD".


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    #747
    IITYWYBMAD
    Registered Users Posts: 1,035 ✭✭✭IITYWYBMAD


    jobbridge4life wrote: »
    It is a question bosed by El Duerino on this thread and a good one I think, what does the label 'evil' add to our understanding?

    Does it make what he did worse? Was he born evil? Did he become evil? Murdering your family is defacto an evil thing to do, by any common understanding of the word. I just don't get what difference it makes in considering the matter?

    It's a way of society understanding what he did. I don't really get the premise of this train of thought, to be honest.

    Let's put it this way, had he killed his family and not committed suicide, there would have been hoards of people in public and in the media denouncing him as an aberration of society and the devil incarnate.

    The fact that he hung himself, after committing these murders, somehow "downgrades" him to a socially awkward individual, suffering with a mental illness, and a victim of a family tragedy.

    I'm not qualified to say one way or the other what his mental state was, or how 'psychotic' he may have been. His actions are his actions, which in my opinion were evil. His mental state is an aside, as far as I'm concerned.

    In answer to your question, does it make what he did worse. How could it. I don't think the label adds anything to our understanding, but there does seem to be 2 camps:

    1) He was evil and he should burn in hell (assumes a belief in the afterlife, which I find ironic)

    2) He was unwell, and a victim of mental illness.

    I think he was most probably both.


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    #748
    iamwhoiam
    Registered Users Posts: 16,128 ✭✭✭✭iamwhoiam


    Jase Late Clergywoman wrote: »
    I understand what it means perfectly, thank you.

    There is a time and place for irony and sarcasm . And even to mention her name like that poster did ( albeit in cloaked in irony ) was wrong in my opinion


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    #749
    dok_golf
    Registered Users Posts: 1,090 ✭✭✭dok_golf


    PeterParker957 wrote: »
    We're not speculating that he's anything other than a man who planned the murder of his family.

    Killing the stronger members of the family first to remove a "fight" from others; the notes, the leaving a warning on the door to call Gardai, even the bank account shenanigans are evidence that he was thinking clearly.

    I have deep deep sympathy for anyone suffering depression, I have been there to a much lesser extent.

    But he is scum and to try to find a reason "why", takes away from his guilt or tries to.

    This is not a novel idea but - "SOMETIMES PEOPLE ARE JUST BAD".

    Just from my own point of view, I can understand completely, that a deranged individual can meticulously pre plan any depraved act and do so in a manner that suggest a very clear level of focus. When I, or anyone else, is in a state like this, it's like being in a cocoon where the illogical seems the only final/clear option. It makes perfect sense although you know that it is "wrong" but in the cold light of day, it is the best thing to do.

    I'm not saying that Hawe was in the state of mind. Maybe he was totally compos mentis ( very unlikely). I'm just reluctant to rule it out. As the father to 3 kids, I couldn't ever see myself harming them but when times were bad, I sometimes scared myself as to where my mind brought me.


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    #750
    Riskymove
    Registered Users Posts: 10,887 ✭✭✭✭Riskymove


    IITYWYBMAD wrote: »
    It's a way of society understanding what he did.

    well exaclty

    I am sure there are many who find the idea that a sane, rational person could do this to their family simply uncomprehensible .....with the the idea that he was simply "evil"

    I mean if he was just simply evil how did he manage to get a family in the first place or wait until this point to do what he did. If he is "evil" there must be many other evil acts he carried out right?

    If he in fact had mental health issues and a pyscotic episode this at least gives some rationale...it doesnt mean he should automatically be excused or forgiven


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    #751
    Boulevardier
    Registered Users Posts: 1,375 ✭✭✭Boulevardier


    I wonder if it is possible that some sort of possession may have been involved.


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