Body of Alan Hawe to be exhumed

Paddy Cow

Jase Late Clergywoman wrote: »

You can excuse it any way you like, speculating on a public forum, spreading rumours, vilifying people and causing huge anguish to the remaining family is reprehensible behaviour.

Murdering your wife and children is reprehensible behaviour. People discussing that situation is not. It's perfectly understandable that people are trying to make sense of this. If one of my brothers murdered his family I know fine well that the neighbours goldfish would be talking about it. Which is exactly why I wouldn't be on the internet reading other people's opinions on the matter.

dok_golf

Genuine question here. Does anyone think that Hawe was in full possession of his faculties ( irrespective of whether he is evil or not) at the time of the murders?

Night Falls

This is a thoroughly depressing thread which shows that we have a good bit to go before mental health is better understood. Until that changes I'm not sure we'll have much of a chance of preventing similar tragedies.

splinter65

PeterParker957 wrote: »

We're not speculating that he's anything other than a man who planned the murder of his family.

Killing the stronger members of the family first to remove a "fight" from others; the notes, the leaving a warning on the door to call Gardai, even the bank account shenanigans are evidence that he was thinking clearly.

I have deep deep sympathy for anyone suffering depression, I have been there to a much lesser extent.

But he is scum and to try to find a reason "why", takes away from his guilt or tries to.

This is not a novel idea but - "SOMETIMES PEOPLE ARE JUST BAD".

Your not a qualified experienced mental health professional.
Your not a qualified experienced criminal justice professional.
But your presenting your armchair amateur musings and conclusions as irrefutable fact and dismissing or ignoring actual professional opinions.
Why is that?

pjohnson

splinter65 wrote: »

As you’ve discovered yourself, there is still a cohort of people in Ireland who are just itching to tell people like yourself to “build a bridge and get over it” “pull yourself together” because they really don’t believe that there’s any such thing as depression or any mental health issues, really.
You can see here how the Professor of Psychiatry is dismissed with a wave of the hand.
Posters on this thread have been frothing at the mouth for months, chomping at the bit about Alan Hawe.
You would pity anyone close to any of them that would find themselves in the pits of despair. No comfort there.

There is mental health problems. Again mental health does not turn people into fucking murderers. You can be in the "pits of despair" and not need to exterminate your family. You have to surely pity the ignorant naive people who truly seem to believe a natural or possible part, indeed culmination, of depression is mass murder. Way to ramp up the stigma lads!

El_Duderino 09

Zubeneschamali wrote:

On the other hand, people tossing in depression as if it causes multiple murder, confusing psychopathy and psychosis, saying "obviously mentally ill" as if mental illness causes carefully planned murders all the time is all very useful and constructive.

I haven't been specific about any mental disorders.
Terms like mental illness are so broad that they can easily encompass disorders that could cause someone to murder.

The fact that it has to be pointed out to so many posters that not everyone with a mental illness is dangerous only highlights the ignorance of mental illness.

But your lack of knowledge of the breath of mental illnesses and disorders is not a reason to ignore the facts. Such as the fact the the expert testified that Hawe experienced a psychotic episode

dok_golf

What stigma?

PeterParker957

splinter65 wrote: »

Your not a qualified experienced mental health professional.
Your not a qualified experienced criminal justice professional.
But your presenting your armchair amateur musings and conclusions as irrefutable fact and dismissing or ignoring actual professional opinions.
Why is that?

You're. Annoys me that.

Why so dismissive ? I'm stating that I believe anyone who is capable of murdering their wife and children is 100% pure evil.

I don't know his mental state. I don't care.

I know several people battling varying stages of mental health issues.

To use their suffering as an excuse for mass murder is abhorrent.

I'm presenting no facts here. I am presenting my beliefs as I hold them.

dok_golf

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I haven't been specific about any mental disorders.
Terms like mental illness are so broad that they can easily encompass disorders that could cause someone to murder.

The fact that it has to be pointed out to so many posters that not everyone with a mental illness is dangerous only highlights the ignorance of mental illness.

But your lack of knowledge of the breath of mental illnesses and disorders is not a reason to ignore the facts. Such as the fact the the expert testified that Hawe experienced a psychotic episode

Actually 2 experts have stated the same, Professor Patricia Casey and Professor Harry Kennedy.

splinter65

dok_golf wrote: »

Genuine question here. Does anyone think that Hawe was in full possession of his faculties ( irrespective of whether he is evil or not) at the time of the murders?

I don’t. Lots here do because they lack the ability to believe in that which they fail to understand and refuse to empathize with
It requires imagination and wonder to believe that someone’s brain can become so disturbed and dangerous that the person can be thinking the most horrific thoughts and planning the most unthinkable events, without giving anything away.
Not everyone gets it.

PeterParker957

splinter65 wrote: »

I don’t. Lots here do because they lack the ability to believe in that which they fail to understand and refuse to empathize with
It requires imagination and wonder to believe that someone’s brain can become so disturbed and dangerous that the person can be thinking the most horrific thoughts and planning the most unthinkable events, without giving anything away.
Not everyone gets it.

Jesus the sheer arrogance coming off this post!

We're all fools and only people who agree with you "get it" ???

Wow. just, wow.

splinter65

PeterParker957 wrote: »

You're. Annoys me that.

Why so dismissive ? I'm stating that I believe anyone who is capable of murdering their wife and children is 100% pure evil.

I don't know his mental state. I don't care.

I know several people battling varying stages of mental health issues.

To use their suffering as an excuse for mass murder is abhorrent.

I'm presenting no facts here. I am presenting my beliefs as I hold them.

The fact that you would spot a typo and make it the most important point in your post would tell me that your not as much distressed about the tragic death of a woman and 3 children as you are keen to make your point, which is pointless.
The fact that you simply don’t seem to be able to grasp the very basic fact that not all mental illnesses are the same, and that some people suffer worse mental illnesses than others, renders your “beliefs” worthless I’m afraid.

murria

Paddy Cow wrote: »

Do you honestly think his parents are going to be reading this thread?

Why do you think they wouldn't? A friend of mine is a relation of the elderly couple who were found dead in their home in Naas last year. Shd said that one of the hardest things the family had to deal with was the cruel comments made by total strangers online.

splinter65

PeterParker957 wrote: »

Jesus the sheer arrogance coming off this post!

We're all fools and only people who agree with you "get it" ???

Wow. just, wow.

Wow just wow Peter. You can’t grasp that your friend with a mental illness is not the same as Alan Hawes mental illness, or my mothers mental illness.
They’re all the same as far as you’re concerned.
And if your friend is not murdering his family, and my mother is not murdering her family, then that makes Hawe evil, doesn’t it?
Admit it. That’s your argument in a nutshell.

PeterParker957

splinter65 wrote: »

Wow just wow Peter. You can’t grasp that your friend with a mental illness is not the same as Alan Hawes mental illness, or my mothers mental illness.
They’re all the same as far as you’re concerned.
And if your friend is not murdering his family, and my mother is not murdering her family, then that makes Hawe evil, doesn’t it?
Admit it. That’s your argument in a nutshell.

The bodies of four innocent people, three of them his own flesh and blood with knives in their throats makes him evil.

Panrich

dok_golf wrote: »

Genuine question here. Does anyone think that Hawe was in full possession of his faculties ( irrespective of whether he is evil or not) at the time of the murders?

He was certainly functional at the time in that he would have been able to write down his thoughts or use a computer as was evidenced by his transfer of money after the murders.

To be able to sit down and write five pages without faltering in resolve shows a person that was functioning at some level and in some control. In other words, he was not totally deranged as we might imagine a crazed out of control killer.

What his mental state was is obviously unknown but there was a very narcissistic tone to the reported contents of the note.

Others on here have mentioned that self absorption and depression go hand in hand where your world view can get condensed to encompass just your own orbit and this can lead to disastrous outcomes. How much control he would have had over his actions is obviously one for experts but there is no doubt that he was capable of carrying out his horrible deed with precision requiring clear mental processing.

end of the road

thierry14 wrote: »

Wish people would stop defending ***** like him

nobody is defending alan hawe. what soever. to suggest they are is just reactionary nonsense with no basis in reality.
people need to get out of the mindset of accusing people of defending people like alan hawe on the basis of them having a different viewpoint, or because they aren't sticking to a particular narrative.
people will have different views on this case, based on what bits of information that are, and will be availible. apart from the fact he murdered his family and then killed himself, we ultimately don't seem to know very much else, hence there will be speculation, and some posters will go against your viewpoint.

thierry14 wrote: »

The man was a piece of ****

Mentally ill bull**** needs to stop

whether alan hawe was or wasn't mentally ill or not i do not know, but i do know that people have a right to discuss the possibility that he was, or even wasn't. there is no such thing as "mentally ill bull" mental illness is very real and recognised whether you like it or not, so you dismissing it = you being factually wrong.

PeterParker957 wrote: »

I stand by my opinion that anyone who did what he did, in the manner that he did it is scum and yes, deserves to burn in Hell.

To say otherwise would be the height of hypocrisy.

you can think what you like about alan hawe, that's not a problem. people are saying you should show consideration for both sets of parents, who have lost loved ones.

tayto lover wrote: »

I've been saying that for ages here too.
The mental health excuse is just a mask to hide an evil and vile murdering thug who had no care or empathy for his wife and children.

but how do you know it is a mask. he can be a murdering thug who had no care or empathy and still have been mentally ill. the only thing we know for definite is he murdered his wife and children and planned it.

Paul Pogba

Have the guards come out and said he planned it?? Or where is that coming from??

Electric Sheep

Considering how Alan Hawe wrote those notes and transferred funds after the murders, I wonder if he also made a will in preparation for the act. If so, it would be an interesting document.

Paddy Cow

murria wrote: »

Why do you think they wouldn't? A friend of mine is a relation of the elderly couple who were found dead in their home in Naas last year. Shd said that one of the hardest things the family had to deal with was the cruel comments made by total strangers online.

I think they wouldn't because they would have to be totally clueless to how the world works if they thought they would read anything positive about Alan. They have shown they are not stupid people by staying away from the inquest. I don't know them personally but I think they would have enough sense to stay away from the internet. This is all over the tv and newspapers which would be harder to avoid but not impossible.

If something happened that put my family into the national news, there is no way in hell I'd be reading people's opinions online. I've got real life people that I turn to for support. Even if we ended up in the papers for something good I still wouldn't read comments.

dok_golf

In interesting that in the case of Maire ( could be Mary) Keegan in Dublin in 2005, that she got public sympathy.

McCrack

Panrich wrote: »

He was certainly functional at the time in that he would have been able to write down his thoughts or use a computer as was evidenced by his transfer of money after the murders.

To be able to sit down and write five pages without faltering in resolve shows a person that was functioning at some level and in some control. In other words, he was not totally deranged as we might imagine a crazed out of control killer.

What his mental state was is obviously unknown but there was a very narcissistic tone to the reported contents of the note.

Others on here have mentioned that self absorption and depression go hand in hand where your world view can get condensed to encompass just your own orbit and this can lead to disastrous outcomes. How much control he would have had over his actions is obviously one for experts but there is no doubt that he was capable of carrying out his horrible deed with precision requiring clear mental processing.

A person undergoing a psychotic episode often does not appear "deranged" - at least outwardly or "out of control" - in fact psychotic delusions and thought processes are often not apparent.

It must also be remembered that committing violent acts under psychosis are extraordinarily rare

tayto lover

end of the road wrote: »

but how do you know it is a mask. he can be a murdering thug who had no care or empathy and still have been mentally ill. the only thing we know for definite is he murdered his wife and children and planned it.

It is being used to explain how this thug massacred his own wife and children by people who only read notes and never saw him alive. They may be right or they may be wrong. If he was "mad" then he was an evil and cunnng madman.
I know loads of people with mental health issue who wouldn't harm a fly never mind ==

1. Changing a will days/weeks before.
2. Having weapons hidden in the home.
3. Clearing a path to get at his victims.
4. Appearing very normal and natural the night before to his inlaws.
5. Murdering the strongest first.
6. researching how to do it in a way that would render them silent, no screams.
7. Writing notes to prevent his friends and neighbours seeing his handiwork.
8. Pulling down the blinds etc so nobody passing would see him in action.
9. Having a rope at the ready for himself.

A lot of planning went into it. A lot of fooling people. It wasn't done on a sudden impulse.
Mad maybe in a Hannibal Lector way. Evil for sure.

tayto lover

murria wrote: »

Why do you think they wouldn't? A friend of mine is a relation of the elderly couple who were found dead in their home in Naas last year. Shd said that one of the hardest things the family had to deal with was the cruel comments made by total strangers online.

The whole story is in the News, newspapers and magazines as well.
I feel for his family but it's something they will have to deal with. Maybe stay off social media.

nice_guy80

This story is just baffling from start to finish

To think there could be others out there, living normal family lives with the potential to do such damage.

jobbridge4life

McCrack wrote: »

A person undergoing a psychotic episode often does not appear "deranged" - at least outwardly or "out of control" - in fact psychotic delusions and thought processes are often not apparent.

It must also be remembered that committing violent acts under psychosis are extraordinarily rare

This is a very important point. It seems to be a recurring point in this thread that the fact the Hawe appears to have put some planning into his horrific crimes somehow precludes the notion that mental health issues were involved. People appear to be attached to the notion that unless one is a screaming, raving, stereotypical lunatic you can't have been suffering from a psychotic break. This is just obviously not true. Unfortunately there are countless examples of people suffering from delusional beliefs committing terrible actions, even while functioning in a relatively normal way.

jobbridge4life

PeterParker957 wrote: »

The bodies of four innocent people, three of them his own flesh and blood with knives in their throats makes him evil.

and?

dok_golf

jobbridge4life wrote: »

This is a very important point. It seems to be a recurring point in this thread that the fact the Hawe appears to have put some planning into his horrific crimes somehow precludes the notion that mental health issues were involved. People appear to be attached to the notion that unless one is a screaming, raving, stereotypical lunatic you can't have been suffering from a psychotic break. This is just obviously not true. Unfortunately there are countless examples of people suffering from delusional beliefs committing terrible actions, even while functioning in a relatively normal way.

Agreed

dense

Paul Pogba wrote: »

Have the guards come out and said he planned it?? Or where is that coming from??

I certainly don't think he planned his life would pan out the way it did.

I was struck by someone who hinted at something "sexual" earlier in the day but it was in a scattergun post.

Perhaps Hawe should have kept it in his pants.
Perhaps someone else should have.

We're not in a position to "know" much or discuss it, bar condemn Hawes ultimate barbaric actions.

dense

dok_golf wrote: »

Agreed

We don't generally condemn the senile for becoming insane, except of course now when their actions abhor us.