Body of Alan Hawe to be exhumed

dense

tayto lover wrote: »

Do you think it is possible that someone was insane say 15/17 years ago and then became sane only to become insane again last year? I mean do you think it can be turned off and on or can someone heal and then relapse again?

It happens, mate of mine, twice in twenty years, came out OK both times, drink related, but my point was to try to demonstrate how we think we cope with or understand "mental health".

It's far too complicated than what we can grasp of it.

We (on the surface at least) pretend we have every sympathy for the demented, but that just lasts as long as that dementia doesn't make them behave violently.

Maybe we're really just paying lip service by pretending we respect those with mental illness.

Put it another way, we only respect them if they're harmless.

If their mental illness manifests itself in violence we don't know what to think.

Psychs will probably say it's their illness causing them to do what they're doing and that suits as long as it doesn't come too close to home.

Have it happening in the kitchen and the "understanding" of and our respect for their mental illness is stretched.

Do we have double standards?
Hard to say, possibly yes.

I've often said that for someone like Hawe, had there been a simple pill he could have taken to end it all, would he have taken it to end his own life, without taking the others with him.

bobsman

dense wrote: »

It happens, mate of mine, twice in twenty years, came out OK both times, drink related, but my point was to try to demonstrate how we think we cope with or understand "mental health".

It's far too complicated than what we can grasp of it.

We (on the surface at least) pretend we have every sympathy for the demented, but that just lasts as long as that dementia doesn't make them behave violently.

Maybe we're really just paying lip service by pretending we respect those with mental illness.

Put it another way, we only respect them if they're harmless.

If their mental illness manifests itself in violence we don't know what to think.

Psychs will probably say it's their illness causing them to do what they're doing and that suits as long as it doesn't come too close to home.

Have it happening in the kitchen and the "understanding" of and our respect for their mental illness is stretched.

Do we have double standards?
Hard to say, possibly yes.

I've often said that for someone like Hawe, had there been a simple pill he could have taken to end it all, would he have taken it to end his own life, without taking the others with him.

He could have taken his own life and left behind Clodagh and her sons. That would have been tragic but nowhere near as catastrophic as what he did.

splinter65

bobsman wrote: »

He could have taken his own life and left behind Clodagh and her sons. That would have been tragic but nowhere near as catastrophic as what he did.

But in his mind altered state, Clodagh and his children were going to be left behind to face the consequences of whatever it was he imagined was going to cause his “fall from grace”.
Well, he couldn’t allow them to be exposed like that.
To protect them from the humiliation and ridicule and disgrace to come, the only thing to do was kill them.
He assured his relations in the 5 page letter that they were happy.
That was all going to be destroyed, first of all by his suicide, then his exposure as a charlatan, a fake. No longer the perfect father and husband.
He had no choice. They all had to die.
That’s my take on it anyway.
Pages ago in this thread I said, if anyone starts having thoughts, even fleetingly, about how hopeless things are for their loved ones, they should tell someone they trust. Open your mouth and speak.

jackboy

splinter65 wrote: »

He had no choice. They all had to die.
That’s my take on it anyway.
Pages ago in this thread I said, if anyone starts having thoughts, even fleetingly, about how hopeless things are for their loved ones, they should tell someone they trust. Open your mouth and speak.

I don't buy it. I don't think he killed them to save them from anything. I think it was all about him.

dok_golf

http://www.newstalk.com/Mental-health-expert-says-more-research-on-murdersuicides-is-needed-in-Ireland

braxen5

Why didn't he think of all the relations and friends and neighbours left to live with such terrible pain? They have to endure it every single day for the rest of their lives. Heartbreaking.

Beautiful wife and 3 beautiful children. May they rest in peace.

Spanish Eyes

As with any rural local community, they know the score.

Don't they?

Very silent up to now, but maybe some of their community know more about this than we do.

There are two schools involved here, the murdered woman and the murderer.

But this is Ireland, and let us close ranks or something. However they may not know anymore than we do about it. To be fair. But I doubt it. Imagine this kind of thing happening within your own community.

The silence is deafening,to me anyway. But maybe that is because they knew nothing either.

michellie

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

As with any rural local community, they know the score.

Don't they?

Very silent up to now, but maybe some of their community know more about this than we do.

There are two schools involved here, the murdered woman and the murderer.

But this is Ireland, and let us close ranks or something. However they may not know anymore than we do about it. To be fair. But I doubt it. Imagine this kind of thing happening within your own community.

The silence is deafening,to me anyway. But maybe that is because they knew nothing either.

Do you expect them to be shouting about this from rooftops and posting about it online ?

Asus X540L

braxen5 wrote: »

Why didn't he think of all the relations and friends and neighbours left to live with such terrible pain?

Maybe cause he was a deranged, psychotic, evil, butchering c*nt?

(That’s my take on it anyway.)

Omackeral

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

As with any rural local community, they know the score.

Don't they?

Very silent up to now, but maybe some of their community know more about this than we do.

There are two schools involved here, the murdered woman and the murderer.

But this is Ireland, and let us close ranks or something. However they may not know anymore than we do about it. To be fair. But I doubt it. Imagine this kind of thing happening within your own community.

The silence is deafening,to me anyway. But maybe that is because they knew nothing either.

You talk some sh*te do ya know that?

First you say, ''as with any local rural community, they know the score''.

Then you say ''maybe they know more than we do''. Then in your very next line you say ''they may not know anymore than we do about it.''

You finish off with ''the silence is deafening... but maybe that's because they don't know anything''. What in the fcuk are you on about!?

Nekarsulm

Muahahaha wrote: »

Did anyone read something about Hawe steeping his feet in bleach? I think it was said he was suffering somatic pain?

That was mentioned by his doctor. Hawe seems to have been a hypochondriac for many years.
It appears that he was imagining illness and that there was also, in fact, no "terrible secret" about to bring his world crashing down.
At least nobody I've been talking to from the area know of anything. And if there was some scandal, after a years passing, it would be common knowledge/gossip by now.

And to show how rational people operate, there is a National School teacher not too far away from Ballyjamesduff currently suspended, awaiting trial for embezzlement of 80,000 euro of school funds.
And no signs of going on a murderous rampage, despite his alleged actions having ruined his career.

splinter65

braxen5 wrote: »

Why didn't he think of all the relations and friends and neighbours left to live with such terrible pain? They have to endure it every single day for the rest of their lives. Heartbreaking.

Beautiful wife and 3 beautiful children. May they rest in peace.

Your trying to impose your own rational mindset on a man who wasn’t able to be rational at all.

dok_golf

Asus X540L wrote: »

Maybe cause he was a deranged, psychotic, evil, butchering c*nt?

(That’s my take on it anyway.)

The first 2 adjectives are particularly poignant

dense

Asus X540L wrote: »

Maybe cause he was a deranged, psychotic, evil, butchering c*nt?

(That’s my take on it anyway.)

Born that way, as a baby, or did something happen to him to make him turn out like that?

The Newstalk link above mentioned that there's been no research into the dozen or so murder suicides over the last decade.

Is research really needed???

I'm generalising here but I'd wager that two main reasons account for them without needing a study, namely financial troubles and infidelity issues.

So, to "save lives" "RSA style" should we be bombarded with public information campaigns urging us to give depressed mates a financial dig out, whilst reminding us all of the dangers of consorting with people whose partners might commit atrocities if they found out?

And I'm not being flippant.

For some, who "couldn't cope" I'm sure a few grand could have saved a life.

For others had their partner not decided to do the dirt, they might still be alive.

The baby Hawe was surely shaped by society as he grew up.

What does not seem to have happened is society providing a safe refuge for him to either kill himself alone and with no one else or a means to cope with something that he saw coming down the track.

There was some tabloid innuendo about something "sexual" posted by someone earlier today, I'm not considering it in this context.

As I said I'm speaking in general terms of what this thing that "they can't cope" with actually is.

There will have been a trigger, something that will have set something in train in the mind.

Too many triggers and the mind gets fried.

"Mental health" is a handy phrase.

dense

Nekarsulm wrote: »

That was mentioned by his doctor. Hawe seems to have been a hypochondriac for many years.
It appears that he was imagining illness and that there was also, in fact, no "terrible secret" about to bring his world crashing down.
At least nobody I've been talking to from the area know of anything. And if there was some scandal, after a years passing, it would be common knowledge/gossip by now.

There was mention of a conflict with a colleague.

But it may have been just in his head or tabloid stuff.

Somatic disorders do come under mental health issues/treatment AFAIK.

autumnbelle

The front of the Sun paper says he had been caught looking up porn in work. Could be the reason for councilling and the counsellor stating the fall from grace was blown out of proportion

Shurimgreat

Its a massive jump from having mental health issues to murdering your entire family in a way that involved significant preparation and preplanning. The link between the two are minimal in this case imo.

Its also possible he tried to make it appear as if he had mental health issues in the weeks and months before the murders. He seemed overly concerned with the loss of his good name.

Who knows how long he was planning this? It could have been months or years, just waiting for the right time or a situation where he thought his marriage was over.
The controlling aspect of his character needs to be considered more. Did he not try to prevent his wife having friends or seeing family?

BinLiner2

A vice-principal accessing porn and allegedly masturbating in a primary school setting would be a serious issue to deal with.The Gardai were also involved.

That doesn't quite tally with Professor Kennedy's description of issues being blown out of proportion.

seamus

jackboy wrote: »

I don't buy it. I don't think he killed them to save them from anything. I think it was all about him.

Well, it's both. An individual who is this controlling see their family as an extension of themselves. Not individuals in their own right, but arms of the self which do as he wills.

Thus when they do their own thing, the controller becomes angry; much like you would if your hand or your foot started doing its own thing and not responding to you.

Hence when the decision is made to end one's own life - or the very fabric of what you thought about the world is unravelling (such a partner threatening to leave) - its incomprehensible to the controller that his family could live on in this state. He is the centre of his world, and in his mind he is the centre of their world too, their lives will be ruined and not worth living, without him.

What's been revealed in the notes and from the family - especially that his marriage was breaking down - is a textbook story of a domestic abuser.

captbarnacles

Sounds like he was obsessed with porn if he couldn't even wait until he was not at work.

Stuckforcash

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Its a massive jump from having mental health issues to murdering your entire family in a way that involved significant preparation and preplanning. The link between the two are minimal in this case

The expert says that he had a severe depressive illness with elements of psychosis.

The letter he left was, if any of the papers are to be believed, disjointed, rambling and and even references fears that he may have psychosis himself.

I think mental illness plays a huge part here and so do the experts that examined the case closely. Not sure why it's still being debated really.

It's possible to have bad character traits coupled with mental illness. Acknowledging mental illness as a factor doesn't necessarily redeem him from the action.

Also the "if only they knew" line has being trotted about as evidence that he was a domestic abuser even though the counsellor clearly states that Hawe said that in relation to the anxiety issues he was there to work through. I'm not saying there wasn't abuse, but that's not evidence of it.

bobsman

I think the entire "fall from grace" thing was all in his head though. Anything "scandalous" would have come out by now. Conflict with a colleague could have been an off the cuff the remark and if one is depressed, things do get out of proportion (have been there).

when my own marriage broke up, my ex h behaved very oddly. He is from a strict catholic background. He took it almost as a slight on his manhood and "standing", which really surprised me. He is okay now thankfully but I have seen a lot of men react this way when a marriage breaks down.

Intothesea

Porn and masturbation in a school... Well, there goes any hope of keeping up the perfect appearance of being a perfect and awesome guy.

This is likely what Hawe saw as the end of his 'being'. His family, being key signifiers and reflectors of his perfect image, would have to go. Killing himself was a good solution too, to the issue of everyone in Ireland knowing what he was, and what he had done.

Kill everyone that you can (your closest-range narcissistic supplies), and write up a nice letter to apologise for being in such trouble that you just had to do it... Paint yourself as a man who has lost it, and leave normal people to argue the two sides of the normal explanation of what has caused it.

Awesome production altogether...

I hope the recommendations of the parties involved in the inquest relate to mass education about the subtle effects of narcissism in families, and ideas on how to recognize silent victims within these families. Here's hoping

captbarnacles

bobsman wrote: »

I think the entire "fall from grace" thing was all in his head though. Anything "scandalous" would have come out by now. Conflict with a colleague could have been an off the cuff the remark and if one is depressed, things do get out of proportion (have been there).

when my own marriage broke up, my ex h behaved very oddly. He is from a strict catholic background. He took it almost as a slight on his manhood and "standing", which really surprised me. He is okay now thankfully but I have seen a lot of men react this way when a marriage breaks down.

The fall from grace was imminent.

kunst nugget

dense wrote: »

Born that way, as a baby, or did something happen to him to make him turn out like that?

The Newstalk link above mentioned that there's been no research into the dozen or so murder suicides over the last decade.

Is research really needed???

Of course it's needed. Proper research into the issue might be of benefit in the future to people who could be potential victims of murder/suicide or family annihilation.

Stuckforcash

BinLiner2 wrote: »

A vice-principal accessing porn and allegedly masturbating in a primary school setting would be a serious issue to deal with.The Gardai were also involved.

That doesn't quite tally with Professor Kennedy's description of issues being blown out of proportion.

I would say murdering your entire family for being caught watching porn is the very definition of blowing something out of proportion.

Murdering your family for any reason is blowing an issue out of proportion.

splinter65

Stuckforcash wrote: »

The expert says that he had a severe depressive illness with elements of psychosis.

The letter he left was, if any of the papers are to be believed, disjointed, rambling and and even references fears that he may have psychosis himself.

I think mental illness plays a huge part here and so do the experts that examined the case closely. Not sure why it's still being debated really.

It's possible to have bad character traits coupled with mental illness. Acknowledging mental illness as a factor doesn't necessarily redeem him from the action.

Also the "if only they knew" line has being trotted about as evidence that he was a domestic abuser even though the counsellor clearly states that Hawe said that in relation to the anxiety issues he was there to work through. I'm not saying there wasn't abuse, but that's not evidence of it.

It’s being debated here because 2 or 3 posters refuse to accept either that there’s any such thing as bad mental health , or there actually is but “my mate Anto has depression but he didn’t butcher his family” thus it’s not possible that Hawe had a different more severe mental illness.

demfad

Stuckforcash wrote: »

The expert says that he had a severe depressive illness with elements of psychosis.

The letter he left was, if any of the papers are to be believed, disjointed, rambling and and even references fears that he may have psychosis himself.

I think mental illness plays a huge part here and so do the experts that examined the case closely. Not sure why it's still being debated really.

It's possible to have bad character traits coupled with mental illness. Acknowledging mental illness as a factor doesn't necessarily redeem him from the action.

Also the "if only they knew" line has being trotted about as evidence that he was a domestic abuser even though the counsellor clearly states that Hawe said that in relation to the anxiety issues he was there to work through. I'm not saying there wasn't abuse, but that's not evidence of it.

Only one expert came to that conclusion. His doctor and counsellor came to a completely different conclusion.
An expert in domestic violence would see it differently also.
No doubt an expert in family annihilation would have seen this as a text book case. A man has a sense of 'family ownership' and massive ego about his 'masculinity' as reflected by his 'pillar of society' and 'family man' status.
When this all-precious image is about to be shatterred he decides to check out and take his belongings with him.

volchitsa

splinter65 wrote: »

It’s being debated here because 2 or 3 posters refuse to accept either that there’s any such thing as bad mental health , or there actually is but “my mate Anto has depression but he didn’t butcher his family” thus it’s not possible that Hawe had a different more severe mental illness.

No, that's not what people are objecting to, it's the idea that anyone, no matter how expert, can diagnose with any certainty a mental illness in hindsight and without ever meeting the person, when the people who dealt with him at the time saw nothing untoward.

Whatever happened to not diagnosing a person without a proper consultation? I though that was the ABC of psychiatry?

Whereas in this case, the "expert" is obviously using the fact of Hawe's actions to justify a postmortem diagnosis.
IMO that's dishonest and unprofessional.

Stuckforcash

demfad wrote: »

Only one expert came to that conclusion. His doctor and counsellor came to a completely different conclusion.
An expert in domestic violence would see it differently also.
No doubt an expert in family annihilation would have seen this as a text book case. A man has a sense of 'family ownership' and massive ego about his 'masculinity' as reflected by his 'pillar of society' and 'family man' status.
When this all-precious image is about to be shatterred he decides to check out and take his belongings with him.

His doctor treated him for only physical ailments and said he never disclosed his thoughts.

His counsellor said he came to him because of anxiety, which is guess what, a mental illness.

It's clear from your posts that you don't read articles correctly and have a limited understanding of mental illness.