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Body of Alan Hawe to be exhumed

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Comments

  • #692
    iamwhoiam
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,265 ✭✭✭✭iamwhoiam


    Tazium wrote: »
    This is a story that has provoked emotion and hatred, united and divided a community and fortunately/unfortunately we'll never really understand the wall Mr. Hawe faced that led him to the multiple murders of Clodagh, Liam, Niall and Ryan. I get shivers thinking about the fact that he would have had to restrain each family member as they would inevitably struggle to react. This was a horrific act, carried out by a disturbed individual and has lasting consequences for both families. Was it telling that his parents didn't attend the inquest? I wonder if Cloadagh's family have reconciled with his family over their shared grief of if there is some lingering blame.

    If there was something you could say to Alan Hawe prior to taking these action, what would it be?

    I think I'd start with, "let's talk".

    I think I would start with talking to Clodagh and tell her to get herself and her boys to a place of safety. And that would be very high on my priority before " lets talk " to Alan Hawe .


  • #693
    PeterParker957
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,177 ✭✭✭PeterParker957


    pjohnson wrote: »
    While you think the murderer was an innocent victim for killing 4 people. Mental Health is a real issue. Not an excuse. Marrying murder to mental health will only make the stigma worse.

    +1

    I've suffered with a mental health issue many years ago after a bereavement. However, I see no shame in asking for help then nor would I now.

    Not everyone feels this and if they are tagging mental health issues on this barbaric control freak it could easily lead to others not seeking help.


  • #694
    demfad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,182 ✭✭✭demfad


    kunst nugget wrote: »
    They'll post the same anonymous source article that they've posted several times already, just go back a couple of pages.

    Don't strawman please. Quotes from her immediate family members aswell as the family member who came out initially. This persons view was shared by her mother and sister thereafter. Understandable that the source was anonymous given that most of the country and press were on the 'good man who cracked' line and anyone who stepped out of line was in for a hard time.

    The fact that the family ran a large awareness and fund raising campaign for a prominent domestic violence charity after the murders might be a cue also to their perception of Alan Hawe.


  • #695
    pjohnson
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,366 ✭✭✭✭pjohnson


    PeterParker957 wrote: »
    +1

    I've suffered with a mental health issue many years ago after a bereavement. However, I see no shame in asking for help then nor would I now.

    Not everyone feels this and if they are tagging mental health issues on this barbaric control freak it could easily lead to others not seeking help.

    Or leading to a decision where they decide they must commit suicide before they kill their loved ones. They may think that they might escalate to Hawes level of "illness"


  • #696
    PeterParker957
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,177 ✭✭✭PeterParker957


    pjohnson wrote: »
    Or leading to a decision where they decide they must commit suicide before they kill their loved ones.

    Surely preferable to "after" no ?


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  • #697
    kunst nugget
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,375 ✭✭✭✭kunst nugget


    pjohnson wrote: »
    While you may think the murderer was an innocent victim with mental booboos that excuses him for killing 4 people.

    Mental Health is a real issue. Not an excuse. Marrying murder to mental health will only make the stigma worse.

    Did I ever state that I think that Alan Hawe is innocent of his actions because of mental health problems? His actions are completely abhorrent and beyond comprehension to me as a husband and father. They are sick and depraved.

    I just have issues with the narrative demfad constantly trots out as the definitive truth on the issue. Is there a problem questioning this?


  • #698
    pjohnson
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,366 ✭✭✭✭pjohnson


    PeterParker957 wrote: »
    Surely preferable to "after" no ?

    While ideally they would get help before they commit suicide. The actual point of most mental health awareness campaigns is they seek help before they reach or act on possible suicidal tendancies.

    Marrying murder to mental health will just accelerate a person who is suffering from an illness to the point where they end their life. So those playing the "mental health" card are far from actually helping anyone suffering from mental health issues.


  • #699
    kunst nugget
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,375 ✭✭✭✭kunst nugget


    demfad wrote: »
    If you feel that family members of domestic abuse victims automatically know when someone is being abused then you don't understand it.
    The abuser gains the family's trust and then can successfully isolate her and ratchet up/keep it hidden. House devil/street angel etc.

    I don't feel that at all.

    You keep stating that Clodagh's family knew he was a manipulative abuser when they clearly didn't.


  • #700
    autumnbelle
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,162 ✭✭✭autumnbelle


    LCD wrote: »
    Not sure if can say this. I`ve family living in the area.
    Rumors that he had, & was being investigated again, in relation to long standing unsolved crimes (not relating to his family or career). Hence the fall from grace.
    Again these are just rumors I heard 2nd hand.

    Ive heard these rumors also.

    Its the most horrific case which leaves so much unanswered :(


  • #701
    jobbridge4life
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,759 ✭✭✭jobbridge4life


    demfad wrote: »
    I've posted quotes from family members earlier in this thread.

    None of the quotes you posted actually say he was abusive, the annoynmous relative you continuiously reference also said they had no idea why he did it, and that they didn't know if Clodagh was going to leave him. With respect, they appear to have no greater understanding of what happened behind those closed doors than anyone else.

    There are also several quotes from Clodagh's family that indicate they never felt she was in danger, that she never felt she was in danger, that there was no signs of anything untoward building. There are no reports of the children being anything but happy and well adjusted.

    The strongest on the record statement I and others have been able to find is the one about Clodagh having to ask him about going to Dublin.

    You appear to have decided to present vague, mild statements made by Clodagh's family as some sort of unquestionable and much more severe conclusion as this man's descipable crimes.


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  • #702
    c68zapdsm5i1ru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,709 ✭✭✭c68zapdsm5i1ru


    PeterParker957 wrote: »
    I'm religious and hope that's exactly where he is and I truly hope he is suffering.

    Well thankfully you don't speak for all religious people. Many of them are also Christian and don't condemn people without knowing the full facts, adding hugely to the pain and grief of surviving family members.


  • #703
    jobbridge4life
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,759 ✭✭✭jobbridge4life


    BinLiner2 wrote: »
    I've been there as a brother of a murder-suicide victim so I tend to have a cold hard view of these matters.

    "Deaths dark door" is the sort of flowery warped language i have disdain for

    That isn't cold, it is cruel. Taken together with your comments your attitude to Hawe's parents is disturbing.

    They woke up just like Clodagh's mother on that day, believing they had three beuatiful grandchildren, a beloved daughter-in-law and a loving son. They lost all that because of their son and the terrible crime he committed. Their grief is as valid as anyone elses and is compounded by the fact that it was their son who was the cause.

    Any feeling towards them, any, other than profound sympathy is shameful.


  • #704
    PeterParker957
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,177 ✭✭✭PeterParker957


    Jase Late Clergywoman wrote: »
    Well thankfully you don't speak for all religious people. Many of them are also Christian and don't condemn people without knowing the full facts, adding hugely to the pain and grief of surviving family members.

    You stab your six year old through the throat and I don't give a toss what rationale well meaning people try to use to justify it.


  • #705
    jobbridge4life
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,759 ✭✭✭jobbridge4life


    Tazium wrote: »
    This is a story that has provoked emotion and hatred, united and divided a community and fortunately/unfortunately we'll never really understand the wall Mr. Hawe faced that led him to the multiple murders of Clodagh, Liam, Niall and Ryan. I get shivers thinking about the fact that he would have had to restrain each family member as they would inevitably struggle to react. This was a horrific act, carried out by a disturbed individual and has lasting consequences for both families. Was it telling that his parents didn't attend the inquest? I wonder if Cloadagh's family have reconciled with his family over their shared grief of if there is some lingering blame.

    If there was something you could say to Alan Hawe prior to taking these action, what would it be?

    I think I'd start with, "let's talk".

    I'd tell him to check into a mental institution immediately but I would probably just say kill yourself leave your family alone.


  • #706
    jobbridge4life
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,759 ✭✭✭jobbridge4life


    PeterParker957 wrote: »
    You stab your six year old through the throat and I don't give a toss what rationale well meaning people try to use to justify it.

    Where are the rational people trying to justify the slaughter of a six year old? Hysteria like the above is just ridiculous.


  • #707
    c68zapdsm5i1ru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,709 ✭✭✭c68zapdsm5i1ru


    PeterParker957 wrote: »
    You stab your six year old through the throat and I don't give a toss what rationale well meaning people try to use to justify it.

    Do you give a toss about his parents, when you post all over the internet that you hope he's burning in Hell?


  • #708
    demfad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,182 ✭✭✭demfad


    jobbridge4life wrote: »
    None of the quotes you posted actually say he was abusive, the annoynmous relative you continuiously reference also said they had no idea why he did it, and that they didn't know if Clodagh was going to leave him. With respect, they appear to have no greater understanding of what happened behind those closed doors than anyone else.

    There are also several quotes from Clodagh's family that indicate they never felt she was in danger, that she never felt she was in danger, that there was no signs of anything untoward building. There are no reports of the children being anything but happy and well adjusted.

    The strongest on the record statement I and others have been able to find is the one about Clodagh having to ask him about going to Dublin.

    You appear to have decided to present vague, mild statements made by Clodagh's family as some sort of unquestionable and much more severe conclusion as this man's descipable crimes.

    The relative said he was manipulative and controlling over many years which is domestic violence: by definition. You may not understand domestic violence: thats not uncommon.
    His immediate family have said many times that he was an evil man who shielded his true personality from them. They stated that the abuse was not physical but "hidden". In fairness they would know better than an anonymous poster on boards. Lets believe them.

    What of their actions?
    They exhumed the killers body away from their loved ones and have organised a large fundraising campaign to raise awareness for domestic violence.

    If you can find any quote from family members (after the relative's story on domestic violence) that says in support of Hawe or that says the were well adjusted or happy as you imply, then please share it.

    Most reports sate the family were 'tight' and always seen together. Unfortunately that does not mean well adjusted and happy, probably the opposite in this case. Hard to know how Clodagh and family are doing when she was rarely seen away from him. Do you get this?

    Otherwise it is disingenous of you to try to bend a story to your own view and misrepresent that family.


  • #709
    PeterParker957
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,177 ✭✭✭PeterParker957


    jobbridge4life wrote: »
    Where are the rational people trying to justify the slaughter of a six year old? Hysteria like the above is just ridiculous.

    No hysteria - and please read the post admonishing me for wishing he was suffering in Hell.

    And I said "rationale", i.e. the excuse/reason given and not "rational" to describe a person.


  • #710
    PeterParker957
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,177 ✭✭✭PeterParker957


    Jase Late Clergywoman wrote: »
    Do you give a toss about his parents, when you post all over the internet that you hope he's burning in Hell?

    His parents are his concern, not mine. He didn't want to read nasty comments on the internet, then probably best not to slaughter his entire family.


  • #711
    BinLiner2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25 ✭BinLiner2


    jobbridge4life wrote: »
    That isn't cold, it is cruel. Taken together with your comments your attitude to Hawe's parents is disturbing.

    They woke up just like Clodagh's mother on that day, believing they had three beuatiful grandchildren, a beloved daughter-in-law and a loving son. They lost all that because of their son and the terrible crime he committed. Their grief is as valid as anyone elses and is compounded by the fact that it was their son who was the cause.

    Any feeling towards them, any, other than profound sympathy is shameful.

    They probably still think of him as a loving son


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  • #712
    kunst nugget
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,375 ✭✭✭✭kunst nugget


    demfad wrote: »
    Otherwise it is disingenous of you to try to bend a story to your own view and misrepresent that family.

    Bloody hell. Irony overload!


  • #713
    demfad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,182 ✭✭✭demfad


    kunst nugget wrote: »
    I don't feel that at all.

    You keep stating that Clodagh's family knew he was a manipulative abuser when they clearly didn't.

    I stated they know he was a domestic abuser as they have said as much albeit that it was hidden. Before the relative came out and up to 3 weeks after the murders they thought he had just snapped. Up until that point they did not know. This is not unusual as most skilled abusers isolate the victim often by gaining confidence with the abusers family.
    Clearly this is what happenned here. You are doing them a disservice to imply that their opinion of Hawe while under his influence was what they believe now.


  • #714
    jobbridge4life
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,759 ✭✭✭jobbridge4life


    demfad wrote: »
    The relative said he was manipulative and controlling over many years which is domestic violence: by definition. You may not understand domestic violence: thats not uncommon.

    I grew up in a household with domestic violence. I have experienced domestic violence in my own life.

    http://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/remember-clodagh-not-him-relative-8776750

    The link above is the report of the comments of the annonymous relative.

    The only quote contained therein that comes close to aligning with your presentation, is the following:

    'Alan Hawe was a controlling, manipulative man, who appeared to those who knew him to be the perfect teacher, neighbour, husband and father.'

    That doesn't go nearly as far as you have in your comments, and again is at odds with the accounts given by many members of the Coll family.
    demfad wrote: »
    His immediate family have said many times that he was an evil man who shielded his true personality from them. They stated that the abuse was not physical but "hidden". In fairness they would know better than an anonymous poster on boards. Lets believe them.

    What of their actions?
    They exhumed the killers body away from their loved ones and have organised a large fundraising campaign to raise awareness for domestic violence.

    If you can find any quote from family members (after the relative's story on domestic violence) that says in support of Hawe or that says the were well adjusted or happy as you imply, then please share it.

    Otherwise it is disingenous of you to try to bend a story to your own view and misrepresent that family.

    The man butchered his family, their family. Of course they think he is evil. My query is that a narrative is being presented that he was controlling, abusive etc. yet other than vague and unsubstantiated comments there is no evidence, no evidence has been suggested by the family, other than the comment about Dublin. If there is more I am more than willing to read and accept it. Why wouldn't I be?

    'Prof Kennedy noted from the documents he had reviewed Clodagh Hawe’s childhood anxieties and those related to being a mother were unremarkable and within the normal range.

    The three boys showed no sign of any adjustment disorders. And there was no sign of “evidence of trauma in childhood    ”.'

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/coroner-s-court/alan-hawe-had-depressive-symptoms-for-almost-a-decade-inquest-told-1.3332363

    '"If Clodagh felt she or the boys were in any danger they would've walked out. They wouldn't be there. She felt safe," said Mary'

    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/exclusive-alan-hawe-was-about-to-experience-a-fall-from-grace-clodaghs-family-believes-36070710.html

    There you go... and as for me twisting the words of the relatives... you seem to have been very selective in recounting the words of the annoynmous relative who in the same article you posted, said the following:

    'I concede that when Alan Hawe took up the implements he used to murder his family, he may not have been thinking logically, he was certainly not sane by normal standards.'


  • #715
    demfad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,182 ✭✭✭demfad


    kunst nugget wrote: »
    Bloody hell. Irony overload!

    In lieu of the massacre her family campaigned and raised a substantial amount of money to help sufferers of domestic violence. They have stated that the abuse Clodagh sufferred was not physical but hidden. They have called his actions calculated.
    If you still claim the family believe that he was a 'good man who snapped' then please substantiate. Otherwise please show more integrity.
    You can start by explaining their massive support for a domestic violence charity.


  • #716
    bobsman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 311 ✭✭bobsman


    Hawe's parents absence at the Inquest was probably them showing sensitivity towards Clodagh's mam and sister (and any other of Clodagh's relatives who attended).


  • #717
    jobbridge4life
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,759 ✭✭✭jobbridge4life


    PeterParker957 wrote: »
    No hysteria - and please read the post admonishing me for wishing he was suffering in Hell.

    And I said "rationale", i.e. the excuse/reason given and not "rational" to describe a person.

    I read the post, it wasn't trying to justify the slaughter of a six year old. Not close.


  • #718
    kunst nugget
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,375 ✭✭✭✭kunst nugget


    demfad wrote: »
    In lieu of the massacre her family campaigned and raised a substantial amount of money to help sufferers of domestic violence. They have stated that the abuse Clodagh sufferred was not physical but hidden. They have called his actions calculated.
    If you still claim the family believe that he was a 'good man who snapped' then please substantiate. Otherwise please show more integrity.
    You can start by explaining their massive support for a domestic violence charity.

    I didn't claim anything about him being a good man who snapped on this thread. I just can't square up what you're saying with such certainty with what I've read from the family.


  • #719
    PeterParker957
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,177 ✭✭✭PeterParker957


    jobbridge4life wrote: »
    I read the post, it wasn't trying to justify the slaughter of a six year old. Not close.
    Well thankfully you don't speak for all religious people. Many of them are also Christian and don't condemn people without knowing the full facts, adding hugely to the pain and grief of surviving family members.

    Maybe not directly justifying it, no - but "well we'll see what else might have happened "before condemning him".

    Like there was something that might be revealed so we'd go "ah well, you can see his point of view there".

    No chance.

    The man stabbed his wife and children in the throat. I'm comfortable condemning him.


  • #720
    demfad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,182 ✭✭✭demfad


    jobbridge4life wrote: »
    I grew up in a household with domestic violence. I have experienced domestic violence in my own life.

    http://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/remember-clodagh-not-him-relative-8776750

    The link above is the report of the comments of the annonymous relative.

    The only quote contained therein that comes close to aligning with your presentation, is the following:

    'Alan Hawe was a controlling, manipulative man, who appeared to those who knew him to be the perfect teacher, neighbour, husband and father.'

    Using a tool to control a spouse or family member is how domestic violence is defined. That can include manipulation as well as violence.

    '"If Clodagh felt she or the boys were in any danger they would've walked out. They wouldn't be there. She felt safe," said Mary'

    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/exclusive-alan-hawe-was-about-to-experience-a-fall-from-grace-clodaghs-family-believes-36070710.html[/QUOTE]

    From the same article:
    "He looked like the ideal husband, but he was a controlling kind of person," Mary said. "I would ask Clodagh if she would like to go shopping in Dublin she would have to run it by him first. He could be as controlling with his silence as he could be with his words."

    Again a pattern of using tools to achieve control = domestic violence. You dont understand or care to clearly.

    There you go... and as for me twisting the words of the relatives... you seem to have been very selective in recounting the words of the annoynmous relative who in the same article you posted, said the following:[/QUOTE]



    'I concede that when Alan Hawe took up the implements he used to murder his family, he may not have been thinking logically, he was certainly not sane by normal standards.'

    Yes, I have quoted this section before: but lest leave nothing out:
    However, a relative of Clodagh told the Irish Sun that Alan 'was not the saint the media appear determined to canonise'.

    The relative added: "Alan is a killer. He killed Clodagh, he robbed her children of their future.

    "He was not an ill man who suffered years of mental torment.

    "He was a man who meticulously controlled and planned every aspect of his evil deed."

    The relative said that since Clodagh had died, she had been described as shy and quiet but it wasn't how the relative knew her.

    “She was a lovely, kind and funny girl when we were growing up — she loved people.

    “We don’t know why he did what he did.

    "Maybe she decided to leave him.

    "Maybe she got sick of her life with him.

    "I suppose the boys were that bit older and maybe she saw a way out.”


    Community mourns as friends of Hawe family pay their respects to three children, their loving mother and father who took their lives
    The family member doesn't believe that mental illness offers an explanation of why Alan Hawe did what he did.

    The relative added: “Mental illness is reaching epidemic proportions in Ireland and certainly more needs to be done to help those suffering from mental health difficulties no matter what they are.

    “However, while I concede that when Alan Hawe took up the implements he used to murder his family, he may not have been thinking logically, he was certainly not sane by normal standards.

    “But to eulogise him as some kind of saint who didn’t know what he was doing is grossly unfair to those who suffer day-in-day-out from mental illness yet somehow manage never to kill anyone.

    "Alan Hawe was a controlling, manipulative man, who appeared to those who knew him to be the perfect teacher, neighbour, husband and father.

    “To keep up that illusion over many years took skills not normally associated with those who have mental illness.

    "Let’s not tarnish the mentally ill by associating them with such evil.

    “Remember Clodagh — a mother, a daughter, a sister, a niece, cousin, teacher, friend, a wonderful woman who came face-to-face with evil and did not live to tell the tell."

    The relative added that Clodagh and her kids were killed by somebody who should have protected them.


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  • #721
    helimachoptor
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 21,755 Mod ✭✭✭✭helimachoptor


    C__MC wrote: »
    He also shut closed his window curtains on the house the day of the murder

    How he could slay the 6 year to death
    Isn't even worth thinking about


    as a parent to 2 young kids, i just cant fathom it, I'd stand in front of Isis, a train, a steam roller to protect them. I don't buy the mental illness stuff, i really think it's some sort of carefully manicured front for hide something else.


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