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Body of Alan Hawe to be exhumed

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Comments

  • #662
    BinLiner2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25 ✭BinLiner2


    seamus wrote: »
    I think that's unfair.

    There's no statement they can make to change anything or make anything better. They're not to blame for what happened.

    Attending the inquest could be seen as insensitive. Yes, they could show support for Clodagh's family, but you don't know what's been going on since, contact may have been rejected, or they may have been asked to stay away and did so out of respect.

    They sent their solicitor in their place which indicates to me that it's not a case of "not bothered" to show up, but they reasoned that it would not be appropriate for them to appear in person.

    The language of their statement is very telling. It mourns their "beloved" grandchildren and daughter-in-law first, and then just refers to "our son" without emotion or adjective.

    Carefully drafted it may be, but it says to me that they understand who the victims are in this case and aren't looking for pity for their son.

    I've been there as a brother of a murder-suicide victim so I tend to have a cold hard view of these matters.

    "Deaths dark door" is the sort of flowery warped language i have disdain for


  • #663
    c68zapdsm5i1ru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,709 ✭✭✭c68zapdsm5i1ru


    dok_golf wrote: »
    There seem to be an awful lot of people who are obviously more qualified then myself, someone who suffered/still at times suffers from severe depression, that have decided that Alan Hawe was evil personified. Maybe he was, but none of us know definitively what happened or what was his state of mind. For the person who said he used the word "I" a lot in the suicide note, that's what depression does. It makes you isolated, insular and depending on the severity, that "everyone is against me". In my opinion, ( and I am no expert, just someone who has suffered episodes of psychosis) there is no way that the actions of Alan Hawe were those of a sane person. It would not surprise me if something happened that put him over the edge. Professor Patricia Casey said this morning that , in her opinion, this was a psychotic episode. Alan Hawe's GP said he didn't show any symptoms of depression. Well, neither did I. Only those in my immediate family ( my wife) could see that something was wrong. I, for one, am not qualified to either pronounce him insane nor evil. I just know, from my own experience that I lean towards mental illness ( or maybe I won't allow myself to believe that such evil exists) and I think "there goes me only for the grace of god".

    Excellent post. Some people seem to be really enjoying demonising Alan Hawe with absolutely no clear idea of what happened.He is dead, but his parents aren't. They've already suffered unimaginably and this kind of speculation can't be helping.
    I saw someone post earlier that they hoped 'he's roaring, mental illness or not'.
    The same poster had said earlier that they will be 'hugging their family tighter tonight'. What if one of those family members develops a mental illness and has a psychotic episode? Will they hope that family member 'is roaring' as well?


  • #664
    dense
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,175 ✭✭✭dense


    demfad wrote: »
    This is what they mean when studies into family annihilation state that some killers experience forms of depression to do with resistance from the targets of the control and worry about maintaining the control.
    Hawe's worry here is clearly associated with some 'sexual' matter about to be revealed which will both destroy his sense of masculinity as a pillar of the community and as a family man. It will also cause him to lose control over that which he is controlling.
    His worry is all about himself as you pointed out.
    Rather than a sick man progressing to a psychotic episode Hawe was something else.
    His worldview was all concerned with his view of masculinity. The main lay person in the parish, the treasurer of the GAA club, the vice principle and the firm head of his household. When this was threatened his brooding resurfaced and when it was certain to be destroyed he decided to destroy all that he owned.
    Clodagh was going to leave him. Who was he to decide if she would be better off dead than without him and with his 'secret'? His view of masculinity and family ownership meant he believed he was judge and jury over whether his family lived or died.

    Are you saying there was a third party affecting the marriage or that he was about to come out as gay or a pervert of some sort?

    You've mentioned a sexual matter with the potential to destroy his perceived masculinity and that his wife was going to leave him.

    Can you be a bit clearer? It's vague.

    Or are you just hitting all the nails just to cover everything?


  • #665
    volchitsa
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,094 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    BinLiner2 wrote: »
    I've been there as a brother of a murder-suicide victim so I tend to have a cold hard view of these matters.

    "Deaths dark door" is the sort of flowery warped language i have disdain for

    I don't know what to say to that, but I couldn't let it go unanswered either.
    Any of the usual phrases seem so trite.

    "If a woman cannot stand in a public space and say, without fear of consequences, that men cannot be women, then women have no rights at all." Helen Joyce



  • #666
    dense
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,175 ✭✭✭dense


    Jase Late Clergywoman wrote: »
    Excellent post. Some people seem to be really enjoying demonising Alan Hawe with absolutely no clear idea of what happened.He is dead, but his parents aren't. They've already suffered unimaginably and this kind of speculation can't be helping.
    I saw someone post earlier that they hoped 'he's roaring, mental illness or not'.
    The same poster had said earlier that they will be 'hugging their family tighter tonight'. What if one of those family members develops a mental illness and has a psychotic episode? Will they hope that family member 'is roaring' as well?

    There's also a strong belief in the afterlife evident from the "wishing he rots in hell" brigade

    The religious are out in force.


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  • #667
    demfad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,182 ✭✭✭demfad


    Jase Late Clergywoman wrote: »
    Excellent post. Some people seem to be really enjoying demonising Alan Hawe with absolutely no clear idea of what happened.He is dead, but his parents aren't. They've already suffered unimaginably and this kind of speculation can't be helping.
    I saw someone post earlier that they hoped 'he's roaring, mental illness or not'.
    The same poster had said earlier that they will be 'hugging their family tighter tonight'. What if one of those family members develops a mental illness and has a psychotic episode? Will they hope that family member 'is roaring' as well?

    The difference is that Clodagh's family have stated that he was an abusive manipulative and controlling man over many years.
    We also know that he was about to fall from grace and lose his family.
    Losing (or threat of losing) your family is the principle motive for family annihilation according to studies.
    Most mass murders in Ireland almost always involve patriarcal males wiping out their entire families when control of their families are threatened. Why dont we see other types of 'psychotic' mass murders in Ireland if psychosis is a fitting explanation?

    It's important to highlight issues of domestic violence. There are hundreds of thousands of women being controlled just as Clodagh was. They must be the priority.


  • #668
    dense
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,175 ✭✭✭dense


    BinLiner2 wrote: »
    I've been there as a brother of a murder-suicide victim so I tend to have a cold hard view of these matters.

    "Deaths dark door" is the sort of flowery warped language i have disdain for

    Would you go along with the suggestion that we never really know anyone? Even ourselves?

    There's badness just under the surface in all of us and if the brain electrics go wrong who knows what can happen.

    Look at senile dementia, if those patients thought they could repair their minds they would, but no one can. Beyond help.

    Maybe he was too.

    Maybe he was nuts, maybe the senile are too.
    Can it be all mental illness? Don't know.

    We don't understand the mind very well I think.


  • #669
    Lackey
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,118 ✭✭✭Lackey


    dense wrote: »
    bobsman wrote: »
    I struggle with the premeditated aspect of the murders.  He meticulously cut the windpipes of his victims so they couldn't cry out.  He sorted his financial and other various matters, which is not an easy task.  It requires planning and time.  

    He was obviously having some mental issues but I cannot fathom how a GP who knew him for years did not have some inkling.

    I agree with you on the nature of the murders it is barbaric.

    Were the journalists over egging the rest:
    What matters financial and otherwise did he actually sort out?

    Did he pay off loans or something?

    Was there anything to do with wills? Doubtful.
    He transferred all monies into his personal account which left his family sole beneficiary
    He laid out all financial documents on the kitchen table
    He did this after he had murdered them. 
    Not to mention planning of the murders, including clearing his path of attack of furniture, and his meticulous actions regarding his estate  between murdering Clodagh and her children and his suicide


  • #670
    Paddy Cow
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,576 ✭✭✭Paddy Cow


    demfad wrote: »
    .....
    Clodagh was going to leave him. Who was he to decide if she would be better off dead than without him and with his 'secret'? His view of masculinity and family ownership meant he believed he was judge and jury over whether his family lived or died.
    Victims are at their most vulnerable when they are getting ready to leave. It's the most dangerous time for them. When Jason Corbett was making plans to go back to Ireland, Molly bashed his head in. Some people aren't mentally ill. They are controlling ar$eholes who would rather commit murder than relinquish control.


  • #671
    dense
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,175 ✭✭✭dense


    Lackey wrote: »
    He transferred all monies into his personal account which left his family sole beneficiary
    He laid out all financial documents on the kitchen table
    He did this after he had murdered them. 
    Not to mention planning of the murders, including clearing his path of attack of furniture, and his meticulous actions regarding his estate  between murdering Clodagh and her children and his suicide

    Thanks.
    Extremely weird how he thought his side of the family was supposed to benefit from any element of it.


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  • #672
    Shurimgreat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,133 ✭✭✭Shurimgreat


    Part of the note released this morning sheds more light. He didn't want to leave his sons as orphans.
    So he clearly intended to kill Clodagh and maybe killing the children was an afterthought.

    Again, there is little evidence of a man who flipped and went on a rampage.
    More a case of days of planning involved, even weeks.

    The inquest barely scratched the surface. Was there any investigation of his internet search history for example that would give clues what his inclinations were over the previous days and weeks? This might have been crucial.

    It seems inquests don't go this far though. So the family will always have questions left unanswered. Its also strange the psychiatrist didn't interview family members or those who knew him best to get an idea of his mindset and mood in the days and weeks before.


  • #673
    seamus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,173 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    BinLiner2 wrote: »
    "Deaths dark door" is the sort of flowery warped language i have disdain for
    What do you want them to say? What can they say? Nothing.

    Damned if they do, damned if they don't. Like I say, it's unfair to accuse them of doing the wrong thing, because there's no "right thing" they can do.


  • #674
    LCD
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,123 ✭✭✭LCD


    Not sure if can say this. I`ve family living in the area.
    Rumors that he had, & was being investigated again, in relation to long standing unsolved crimes (not relating to his family or career). Hence the fall from grace.
    Again these are just rumors I heard 2nd hand.


  • #675
    eviltwin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    He was worried about a fall from grace, well what bigger fall from grace can there be than forever being known as the person who murdered his own family.


  • #676
    Intothesea
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 540 ✭✭✭Intothesea


    There's nothing to say that Hawe wasn't a narcissist and suffering with mental health issues. Many types of issues can be comorbid with this, including depressive, eating, and chemical disorders.

    I think there generally isn't or won't be much weight given to this likelihood or even fact -- just by virtue of the fact that the outcome indicates that the overall value and direction of the 'solution' was driven by the mind-boggingly abnormal value-set of the narcissist.

    I can understand that people with depressive issues or who intimately understand how depression can bend someone's output away from normal can see this more as an overall tragedy, or a warning for us to pay more attention to mental health issues.

    I think the real tragedy, most likely, is that no one could ever know or guess that such a turn would come. Narcissists don't discuss their desire to kill their family, and rather hide their abnormal secrets to prevent revealing their true natures. They don't struggle with negative desires like normal people.

    As a result, not even a note of supposed explanation left at the scene, a last chance to tell the truth, will contain anything but ridiculously vague and excuse-making thoughts. Another indicator of the narcissistic brain cell is the permanent 'me me me', and 'I'm the real victim here' repetitive note. As Hawe says, he had to do it, he had no choice. It's not really him making a decision to do this, he's merely a victim of fate.


  • #677
    c68zapdsm5i1ru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,709 ✭✭✭c68zapdsm5i1ru


    dense wrote: »
    There's also a strong belief in the afterlife evident from the "wishing he rots in hell" brigade

    The religious are out in force.

    I'm religious and I would never ever wish that Alan Hawe was 'rotting in Hell'. I don't think it's fair to generalise like that.


  • #678
    c68zapdsm5i1ru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,709 ✭✭✭c68zapdsm5i1ru


    LCD wrote: »
    Not sure if can say this. I`ve family living in the area.
    Rumors that he had, & was being investigated again, in relation to long standing unsolved crimes (not relating to his family or career). Hence the fall from grace.
    Again these are just rumors I heard 2nd hand.

    Which is why you shouldn't be spreading them around the internet. As I've said before his parents are still alive and have already suffered terribly.


  • #679
    kunst nugget
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,375 ✭✭✭✭kunst nugget


    demfad wrote: »
    Clodagh was going to leave him. Who was he to decide if she would be better off dead than without him and with his 'secret'? His view of masculinity and family ownership meant he believed he was judge and jury over whether his family lived or died.

    Even though you keep saying this, we don't know if this is true. He feared the breakdown of his marriage - this could be linked to the 'fall from grace' that has been discussed and Clodagh might have been completely clueless about it at the time. The last searches on their computer seemed to have been Clodagh looking at family holidays which would seem strange for a woman getting ready to leave her husband.
    demfad wrote: »
    The difference is that Clodagh's family have stated that he was an abusive manipulative and controlling man over many years.

    Again, you keep saying this, citing an anonymous source but as has been said several times already, none of her family seemed to think he was an abusive man before the murders. The mother's initial reaction to seeing the cars still parked in the car was carbon monoxide poisoning - would you think that would have been her initial reaction if she thought of Alan Hawe as an abuser.


  • #680
    C__MC
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,355 ✭✭✭C__MC


    He also shut closed his window curtains on the house the day of the murder

    How he could slay the 6 year to death
    Isn't even worth thinking about


  • #681
    Tazium
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 908 ✭✭✭Tazium


    This is a story that has provoked emotion and hatred, united and divided a community and fortunately/unfortunately we'll never really understand the wall Mr. Hawe faced that led him to the multiple murders of Clodagh, Liam, Niall and Ryan. I get shivers thinking about the fact that he would have had to restrain each family member as they would inevitably struggle to react. This was a horrific act, carried out by a disturbed individual and has lasting consequences for both families. Was it telling that his parents didn't attend the inquest? I wonder if Cloadagh's family have reconciled with his family over their shared grief of if there is some lingering blame.

    If there was something you could say to Alan Hawe prior to taking these action, what would it be?

    I think I'd start with, "let's talk".


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  • #682
    PeterParker957
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,177 ✭✭✭PeterParker957


    Jase Late Clergywoman wrote: »
    I'm religious and I would never ever wish that Alan Hawe was 'rotting in Hell'. I don't think it's fair to generalise like that.

    I'm religious and hope that's exactly where he is and I truly hope he is suffering.


  • #683
    demfad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,182 ✭✭✭demfad


    kunst nugget wrote: »
    Even though you keep saying this, we don't know if this is true. He feared the breakdown of his marriage - this could be linked to the 'fall from grace' that has been discussed and Clodagh might have been completely clueless about it at the time. The last searches on their computer seemed to have been Clodagh looking at family holidays which would seem strange for a woman getting ready to leave her husband.

    His family said this (not me) so we know it's likely true. A relation also spoke of her being 'sick' of her life with him.
    The counsellor revealed he was also going to marriage counselling.
    A family holiday does not necessarily have to include the father does it?
    In any event, Hawe knew the marriage (troubles as it was) would be over when his fall from grace was revealed. Either way Clodagh was going to leave him.


    Again, you keep saying this, citing an anonymous source but as has been said several times already, none of her family seemed to think he was an abusive man before the murders. The mother's initial reaction to seeing the cars still parked in the car was carbon monoxide poisoning - would you think that would have been her initial reaction if she thought of Alan Hawe as an abuser.

    Domestic abuse/violence is usually hidden. The abuser isolates the victim. The mother stated it wasn't physical, that it was hidden. In an article today she stated that Hawe allowed them to see a false persona but not his true self.
    She did not think he was an abuser at the time. After the family member posted the story the entire family rapidly changed their view. I don't know for sure but I would surmise that this persons contribution was significant and caused them to look at Hawe's actions over the years in a different light.

    If you feel that family members of domestic abuse victims automatically know when someone is being abused then you don't understand it.
    The abuser gains the family's trust and then can successfully isolate her and ratchet up/keep it hidden. House devil/street angel etc.


  • #684
    Stuckforcash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 133 ✭✭Stuckforcash


    Junkyard Tom wrote: »
    I think what I wrote has gone over your head. Here, consider this.

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=103471215&postcount=179

    Nope. You said the victims should never be referred to as the wife and children of the killer as it implies they're his possessions.

    Sorry but I'm more concerned about the tragic event in question than nit picking about the English language because it doesn't suit your agenda.


  • #685
    C__MC
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,355 ✭✭✭C__MC


    PeterParker957 wrote: »
    I'm religious and hope that's exactly where he is and I truly hope he is suffering.

    +Plus 1


  • #686
    Stuckforcash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 133 ✭✭Stuckforcash


    demfad wrote: »
    His family said this (not me) so we know it's likely true. A relation also spoke of her being 'sick' of her life with him.
    The counsellor revealed he was also going to marriage counselling.
    A family holiday does not necessarily have to include the father does it?
    In any event, Hawe knew the marriage (troubles as it was) would be over when his fall from grace was revealed. Either way Clodagh was going to leave him.





    Domestic abuse/violence is usually hidden. The abuser isolates the victim. The mother stated it wasn't physical, that it was hidden. In an article today she stated that Hawe allowed them to see a false persona but not his true self.
    She did not think he was an abuser at the time. After the family member posted the story the entire family rapidly changed their view. I don't know for sure but I would surmise that this persons contribution was significant and caused them to look at Hawe's actions over the years in a different light.

    If you feel that family members of domestic abuse victims automatically know when someone is being abused then you don't understand it.
    The abuser gains the family's trust and then can successfully isolate her and ratchet up/keep it hidden. House devil/street angel etc.

    Can you post a source about him being abusive? I'd be interested in reading it. Thanks.


  • #687
    demfad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,182 ✭✭✭demfad


    Tazium wrote: »
    This is a story that has provoked emotion and hatred, united and divided a community and fortunately/unfortunately we'll never really understand the wall Mr. Hawe faced that led him to the multiple murders of Clodagh, Liam, Niall and Ryan.

    Evidence and other cases and studies of family annihilation help us understand. More information needs to be publicised about these cases so the public can understand.
    I get shivers thinking about the fact that he would have had to restrain each family member as they would inevitably struggle to react.

    What he did and how he planned it were worse than your imagination.
    This was a horrific act, carried out by a disturbed individual and has lasting consequences for both families. Was it telling that his parents didn't attend the inquest? I wonder if Cloadagh's family have reconciled with his family over their shared grief of if there is some lingering blame.

    They were reconciled at the start as the priest forced the family to accept the 'good man who snapped' narrative.
    After about a month and with time the family changed their view to what it is today. As you would expect contact between teh families has been minimal.
    If there was something you could say to Alan Hawe prior to taking these action, what would it be?

    I think I'd start with, "let's talk".

    I would not talk to him. I would help his family get away from him and get them in touch with people who could protect them from him.


  • #688
    demfad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,182 ✭✭✭demfad


    Stuckforcash wrote: »
    Can you post a source about him being abusive? I'd be interested in reading it. Thanks.

    I've posted quotes from family members earlier in this thread.


  • #689
    kunst nugget
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,375 ✭✭✭✭kunst nugget


    Stuckforcash wrote: »
    Can you post a source about him being abusive? I'd be interested in reading it. Thanks.

    They'll post the same anonymous source article that they've posted several times already, just go back a couple of pages.


  • #690
    PeterParker957
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,177 ✭✭✭PeterParker957


    kunst nugget wrote: »
    They'll post the same anonymous source article that they've posted several times already, just go back a couple of pages.

    I imagine dutiful, loving husbands and fathers don't wake up one morning and plan to kill their family, disinherit the family on the mother's side so your own benefit and then off yourself.

    Of course he was an abusive man.

    He was pure evil and deserves to burn in Hell.


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  • #691
    pjohnson
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,366 ✭✭✭✭pjohnson


    kunst nugget wrote: »
    They'll post the same anonymous source article that they've posted several times already, just go back a couple of pages.

    While you may think the murderer was an innocent victim with mental booboos that excuses him for killing 4 people.

    Mental Health is a real issue. Not an excuse. Marrying murder to mental health will only make the stigma worse.


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