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Clerical officer - Low pay - Dublin

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    #332
    Glenster
    Registered Users Posts: 2,626 ✭✭✭Glenster


    The_Conductor wrote: »
    Almost 80% of recent COs do have third level qualifications- it may not be a requirement for the role- but they do hold them...... Its not accurate to suggest they don't.

    The point is that there is no 'requirement' for a third level qualification.

    A girl started in my place as a HR generalist last week with an MBA. It doesn't mean that you have to have an MBA to be a HR generalist.


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    #333
    Arcade_Tryer
    Registered Users Posts: 2,021 ✭✭✭Arcade_Tryer


    Glenster wrote: »
    The point is that there is no 'requirement' for a third level qualification.

    A girl started in my place as a HR generalist last week with an MBA. It doesn't mean that you have to have an MBA to be a HR generalist.
    Hold on a minute, very few jobs "require" a third level qualification, even if a lot of jobs have a third level "requirement". It is simply a screening process, the same way you say the different stages in the Civil Service application process are. At least they measure ability against the rest of the applicants, and not some grade inflated college course! There is a lot of hypocrisy here and changing arguments to suit a certain narrative.


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    #334
    noodler
    Registered Users Posts: 26,302 ✭✭✭✭noodler


    Arcade_Tryer wrote: »
    Hold on a minute, very few jobs "require" a third level qualification, even if a lot of jobs have a third level "requirement". It is simply a screening process, the same way you say the different stages in the Civil Service application process are. At least they measure ability against the rest of the applicants, and not some grade inflated college course! There is a lot of hypocrisy here and changing arguments to suit a certain narrative.

    Nope.

    AO and EO require a third level degree.

    AO in particular has always been graduate.


    And loads of jobs require a third level qualification.


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    #335
    doc22
    Registered Users Posts: 861 ✭✭✭doc22


    noodler wrote: »
    Nope.

    AO and EO require a third level degree.

    AO in particular has always been graduate.


    And loads of jobs require a third level qualification.

    wrong


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    #336
    Arcade_Tryer
    Registered Users Posts: 2,021 ✭✭✭Arcade_Tryer


    noodler wrote: »
    Nope.

    AO and EO require a third level degree.

    AO in particular has always been graduate.


    And loads of jobs require a third level qualification.
    The point being made is, for most entry level, graduate and mid tier jobs, a degree is a "requirement", but the job itself does not require a degree. It puts the argument concerning a degree not being a "requirement" for the position of Clerical Officer into perspective. And hence why there is a stringent, and testing, application process.


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    #337
    doc22
    Registered Users Posts: 861 ✭✭✭doc22


    Arcade_Tryer wrote: »
    The point being made is, for most entry level, graduate and mid tier jobs, a degree is a "requirement", but the job itself does not require a degree. It puts the argument concerning a degree not being a "requirement" for the position of Clerical Officer into perspective. And hence why there is a stringent, and testing, application process.

    There isn't a "a stringent, and testing, application process". You do a low level verbal/numeric test and pass a basic interview and assigned a position based on your number on a list.


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    #338
    Arcade_Tryer
    Registered Users Posts: 2,021 ✭✭✭Arcade_Tryer


    doc22 wrote: »
    There isn't a "a stringent, and testing, application process". You do a low level verbal/numeric test and pass a basic interview and assigned a position based on your number on a list.
    The numerical part is easy. The verbal part, given the time limit, is very difficult to score highly on. And remember, you have to perform these tests twice, both supervised and unsupervised. That is quite stringent. Plus you then have to pass the interview, which is admittedly straightforward, but even then you are only potentially in line for a position.


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    #339
    Glenster
    Registered Users Posts: 2,626 ✭✭✭Glenster


    Arcade_Tryer wrote: »
    Hold on a minute, very few jobs "require" a third level qualification, even if a lot of jobs have a third level "requirement". It is simply a screening process, the same way you say the different stages in the Civil Service application process are. At least they measure ability against the rest of the applicants, and not some grade inflated college course! There is a lot of hypocrisy here and changing arguments to suit a certain narrative.

    I actually don't know what you're talking about mate.

    If they wont give you a job without a third level qualification its a requirement for the job quotation marks or no.

    The only point I made about 11 million posts back was that level of competition is not solely a function of the number of applicants.

    So just because 27000 people apply to be a CO and they choose the best 200 doesn't mean that those 200 are absolutely amazing because the cat and his mother can apply.

    Whereas for graduate jobs in the private sector that may be paid more there may be fewer applicants, but the level of applicants in general is higher because of increased restrictions on who can apply.


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    #340
    Arcade_Tryer
    Registered Users Posts: 2,021 ✭✭✭Arcade_Tryer


    Glenster wrote: »
    I actually don't know what you're talking about mate.

    If they wont give you a job without a third level qualification its a requirement for the job quotation marks or no.
    Apologies, I'll explain. There is a difference between a job "requirement" in terms of those who can apply, and a job that "requires" a degree to perform the daily duties of the role. The majority of graduate level jobs have a degree as a requirement for applicants for example, but the majority of them will tell you, if honest, that they did not really require a degree to learn and progress in the position. A degree is simply another screening process for the vast majority of jobs.


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    #341
    Glenster
    Registered Users Posts: 2,626 ✭✭✭Glenster


    Arcade_Tryer wrote: »
    Apologies, I'll explain. There is a difference between a job "requirement" in terms of those who can apply, and a job that "requires" a degree to perform the daily duties of the role. The majority of graduate level jobs have a degree as a requirement for applicants for example, but the majority of them will tell you, if honest, that they did not really require a degree to learn and progress in the position. A degree is simply another screening process for the vast majority of jobs.


    For the life of me I cant imagine a job that you couldn't theoretically 'do' without a specific degree.

    Doctor? But you can get graduate entry by doing any degree there too....

    So I don't really get your point.


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    #342
    noodler
    Registered Users Posts: 26,302 ✭✭✭✭noodler


    I think AOs should get a 15k increase in their starting salary so they can live a graduate lifestyle in Dublin.

    EOs should get 10k increase as well since they need to be warning significantly more than the COs they manage.


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    #343
    Arcade_Tryer
    Registered Users Posts: 2,021 ✭✭✭Arcade_Tryer


    Glenster wrote: »
    For the life of me I cant imagine a job that you couldn't theoretically 'do' without a specific degree.

    Doctor? But you can get graduate entry by doing any degree there too....

    So I don't really get your point.

    A degree requirement is merely a box ticking exercise. It's a screening process in the same way as the aptitude tests for the CO positions are. Yet the argument being put forward here is that because a degree isn't a requirement for CO positions, jobs with a degree as a requirement deserve to be higher paid.


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    #344
    Arcade_Tryer
    Registered Users Posts: 2,021 ✭✭✭Arcade_Tryer


    noodler wrote: »
    I think AOs should get a 15k increase in their starting salary so they can live a graduate lifestyle in Dublin.

    EOs should get 10k increase as well since they need to be warning significantly more than the COs they manage.
    You're revealing yourself now.


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    #345
    The_Conductor
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,279 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    doc22 wrote: »
    wrong

    Technically you're correct that an EO does not require a degree- however- all EO competitions are now handled by the graduate recruitment unit- in an identical manner to the AO competitions- complete with presentation of your qualifications and verification with the universities and other 3rd level institutions (including final degree transcripts etc).

    I.e. its a defacto requirement- and is fully expected of external candidates- some internal candidates may get promotion to EO (or indeed an upgrade to EO- as all the SOs have done)- without a degree- however, this will become exceptional rather than the norm in future.

    Its the new norm.


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    #346
    doc22
    Registered Users Posts: 861 ✭✭✭doc22


    The_Conductor wrote: »
    Technically you're correct that an EO does not require a degree- however- all EO competitions are now handled by the graduate recruitment unit- in an identical manner to the AO competitions- complete with presentation of your qualifications and verification with the universities and other 3rd level institutions (including final degree transcripts etc).

    I.e. its a defacto requirement- and is fully expected of external candidates- some internal candidates may get promotion to EO (or indeed an upgrade to EO- as all the SOs have done)- without a degree- however, this will become exceptional rather than the norm in future.

    Its the new norm.

    It's only more verification, there's no requirement to have a degree. Unless at interview they mark you down under skills competency I can't see how it would make a difference ?. Most CO should have a degree with the relatively generous civil service educational support anyway.


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    #347
    noodler
    Registered Users Posts: 26,302 ✭✭✭✭noodler


    Arcade_Tryer wrote: »
    You're revealing yourself now.

    In the sense that??


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    #348
    Glenster
    Registered Users Posts: 2,626 ✭✭✭Glenster


    Arcade_Tryer wrote: »
    A degree requirement is merely a box ticking exercise. It's a screening process in the same way as the aptitude tests for the CO positions are. Yet the argument being put forward here is that because a degree isn't a requirement for CO positions, jobs with a degree as a requirement deserve to be higher paid.

    A degree isn't a requirement for CO positions because the people who create the roles looked at the type of work COs would be doing and determined that it wasn't up to 3rd level education spec.

    A degree is a requirement for other jobs because they look at the type of work that is being done/type of person required and determine that a degree is required.

    Salaries follow on from that. Not the other way around.


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    #349
    4ensic15
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,691 ✭✭✭4ensic15


    The_Conductor wrote: »
    There are a not insignificant number of people taking posts- turning up for a few days- and then just not turning up any longer- without any explanation being given. Its pretty endemic at the CO grade- less an issue- but still happening with EOs and AOs.

    Clearly the orientation for newcomers is very poor.


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    #350
    mzn
    Registered Users Posts: 90 ✭✭mzn


    FIS is very little money
    To get it you have :

    Work 38 or more hours per fortnight (any combination of hours that reaches 38 hours each fortnight is acceptable). You can combine your weekly hours with your spouse, civil partner, cohabitant's hours to meet this condition. You cannot use time spent in self-employment (or on Community Employment, Gateway, Tús, JobBridge or the Rural Social Scheme) to meet this condition.
    Where the employment is likely to last at least 3 months
    Have one or more children who normally live with you and
    Earn less than an amount set according to your family size

    Read Here :
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    FIS income limits in 2017
    If you have: And your weekly family income is less than:
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    Two children €612
    Three children €713
    Four children €834
    Five children €960
    Six children €1,076
    Seven children €1,212
    Eight children €1,308


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    #351
    mzn
    Registered Users Posts: 90 ✭✭mzn


    Calina wrote: »
    Actually, for a lot of grad salaries now it's around 27-30K. I've also made the point further up the thread somewhere that in 2014 at least MS had a grad salary in tech of 40KE.

    23KE is low imo.

    Assume that some people were unemployed and had families to support and actually had reasonable paying jobs before a recession came along and made a mess of everything. Anyone grown up will tell you that a period of unemployment can be hard to overcome when looking for a replacement job. The assumption that this only affects 22 year olds is wrong.
    Very true . i'd totally agree with you.


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    #352
    vector
    Registered Users Posts: 1,756 ✭✭✭vector


    Would it be true to say that most clerical officers have a second job? (e.g. bar work) in order to make ends meet?


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    #353
    Greyian
    Registered Users Posts: 969 ✭✭✭Greyian


    vector wrote: »
    Would it be true to say that most clerical officers have a second job? (e.g. bar work) in order to make ends meet?

    In my group of friends, there are 5 COs 4 COs (one has become an AO, after being a CO when we moved in together, but moved to EO and then AO over the last 18 months or so).
    None of them work a second job. 1 of them is still living at home with her parents, the others have all moved out (she's dating another CO, separate from the friend group already mentioned, who has moved out also).
    None of them are strapped for cash (they can all afford to save some money and enjoy foreign holidays). They're not loaded either, but then none of them expect to be (they all feel like the CO job is the first step for them, not the end point).

    I'm really curious why you should phrase your question to way you did. It's as if you feel that most COs are working second jobs, and that it is something everyone is aware of. I've never heard of any COs working second jobs, and would imagine the ones that are would be in a pretty small minority and would also have other extenuating circumstances (e.g. supporting family/children).


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    #354
    daithi84
    Registered Users Posts: 197 ✭✭daithi84


    The competition for Clerical Officer posts are high and a lot of people with degrees and masters are going for them, so while 3rd level qualification is not a requirement, a person with one will get the job over someone without. Depending on location clerical officers are very skilled people, they are the backbone which keeps everything running. Some may be horrible jobs but they keep the place afloat.

    The starting wage for a CO is extremely tough to live on. Especially with all the extra deductions since the recession. It really is only suited to people living with their parents because of the high cost of rent.

    Dublin based allowances unfortunately are not given. The only job where i got one before was working for a bank. It is unfair that a public servant in Donegal and Dublin receive the same wage.


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    #355
    mzn
    Registered Users Posts: 90 ✭✭mzn


    daithi84 wrote: »
    The competition for Clerical Officer posts are high and a lot of people with degrees and masters are going for them, so while 3rd level qualification is not a requirement, a person with one will get the job over someone without. Depending on location clerical officers are very skilled people, they are the backbone which keeps everything running. Some may be horrible jobs but they keep the place afloat.

    The starting wage for a CO is extremely tough to live on. Especially with all the extra deductions since the recession. It really is only suited to people living with their parents because of the high cost of rent.

    Dublin based allowances unfortunately are not given. The only job where i got one before was working for a bank. It is unfair that a public servant in Donegal and Dublin receive the same wage.

    Informative input ! but how you knew that Master and other 3rd level are applying for such low paid job ? how you knew and why they have applied ?


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    #356
    daithi84
    Registered Users Posts: 197 ✭✭daithi84


    mzn wrote: »
    Informative input ! but how you knew that Master and other 3rd level are applying for such low paid job ? how you knew and why they have applied ?

    I know from my workplace which recently did a large recruitment of Grade 3's. Downside is that is an extremely high turnover of staff due to the low wage.


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    #357
    mzn
    Registered Users Posts: 90 ✭✭mzn


    daithi84 wrote: »
    I know from my workplace which recently did a large recruitment of Grade 3's. Downside is that is an extremely high turnover of staff due to the low wage.

    Ok, you have expertise so you probably work with government !
    Anyway, the government wont pay more, its advantage for those with leaving certificate as they could gurantee an office job and get upgrade till grade 5 and above, however, its unlikely same for 3rd level graduate as they are forced to start with same salary (or grade) as others do. So we will find that some professionals with 14 yrs exp ( + 3rd level) and 6 yrs exp (+ 3 level) with 19 yr boys in the same boat .Awful.
    They should add" county allowance" to any salary grade.


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    #358
    daithi84
    Registered Users Posts: 197 ✭✭daithi84


    mzn wrote: »
    Ok, you have expertise so you probably work with government !
    Anyway, the government wont pay more, its advantage for those with leaving certificate as they could gurantee an office job and get upgrade till grade 5 and above, however, its unlikely same for 3rd level graduate as they are forced to start with same salary (or grade) as others do. So we will find that some professionals with 14 yrs exp ( + 3rd level) and 6 yrs exp (+ 3 level) with 19 yr boys in the same boat .Awful.
    They should add" county allowance" to any salary grade.

    The Government introduced 2 new pay points at the start of the scale reducing the starting wage by around €2000 for new entrants, completely disgraceful for workers trying to live in the main cities, especially Dublin. In a recent Grade 4 competition people were told they didnt get the job because they had no 3rd level qualification, as in certificate, diploma or degree. Workers will not get to Grade 5 without 3rd level qualification. A county allowance should be introduced and the additional low pay points removed.


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    #359
    mzn
    Registered Users Posts: 90 ✭✭mzn


    daithi84 wrote: »
    The Government introduced 2 new pay points at the start of the scale reducing the starting wage by around €2000 for new entrants, completely disgraceful for workers trying to live in the main cities, especially Dublin. In a recent Grade 4 competition people were told they didnt get the job because they had no 3rd level qualification, as in certificate, diploma or degree. Workers will not get to Grade 5 without 3rd level qualification. A county allowance should be introduced and the additional low pay points removed.

    Surprising request! i meant 3rd level for Grade 4.
    However, Clerical officer start as grade 3 , isnt it ? so no 3rd level would be required.


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    #360
    daithi84
    Registered Users Posts: 197 ✭✭daithi84


    mzn wrote: »
    Surprising request! i meant 3rd level for Grade 4.
    However, Clerical officer start as grade 3 , isnt it ? so no 3rd level would be required.

    3rd level is not a requirement for the job but people who do have 3rd level qualifications will get the job over people who dont. The high majority of people recruited into grade 3 positions over the last 10-15 years have 3rd level qualifications.


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    #361
    mzn
    Registered Users Posts: 90 ✭✭mzn


    daithi84 wrote: »
    3rd level is not a requirement for the job but people who do have 3rd level qualifications will get the job over people who dont. The high majority of people recruited into grade 3 positions over the last 10-15 years have 3rd level qualifications.

    I think that it dosnt matter if you have 3rd level or no, as they have sent online questaionare for candidates and assement they sent is based on points you got. 1
    highest third 550p and over, middle third 501-550 amd low third 300-500. Its the new system, nowadays, and i guess if have low or middle third you will take place of priority after those with highest third. Are you familiar with these new system . they sent that mimum points for this time is 300 points and average of all candidates is 505 . i have points in middle third and higher than average even though i have 3rd level Education.
    So i believe that points is deciding factor regardless of education . agree ?


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