Clerical officer - Low pay - Dublin

AndrewJRenko

Augeo wrote: »

Solution, leave as is.
If the pay is that bad change jobs.

It doesn't solve the problem. It just pushes it down to someone else.

bobbysands81

doc22 wrote: »

Done the calculations around 60,000 gross as a public servant with 3 children you'd near qualify for FIS It's 37000 after tax, pension etc not gross

Why are you stating "public servant with 3 children"? Why single out "public servant"?

doc22

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Why are you stating "public servant with 3 children"? Why single out "public servant"?

3 children would be a typical family and to use the case that civil servants are badly paid because they receive FIS/SW is misleading as FIS is very generous in comparison to say a medical card. 60k is not badly paid?

Glenster

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

It doesn't solve the problem. It just pushes it down to someone else.

What solves the problem is if no-one else is willing to do it for that wage, then the wage has to be raised to find people to do the job.

Or people will do the job for the wage, therefore there is no problem, just standard moaning.

ezra_pound

doc22 wrote: »

3 children would be a typical family and to use the case that civil servants are badly paid because they receive FIS/SW is misleading as FIS is very generous in comparison to say a medical card. 60k is not badly paid?

But your point is fundamentally incorrect. At 60k gross, a public servant can't receive fis with 3 children.

noodler

And stop lumping in child benefit with fis.


CB does not depend on income.

Donal55

This is a mad thread. The OP could have put it that anyone on €21k would struggle in Dublin.
Don't see why the hardship is confined to public servants, and I say that as a public servant.

MouseTail

Using FIS as a measure of low pay is misleading. The average family size is not 3 children, and FIS is based on family income, not one income. I would wager the vast bulk of entrants at CO level have no dependents in any case.

The question is whether the wage is appropriate for the type of work being done. CO is (obviously) clerical work, little autonomy, a lot of direction required etc. No third level education is required for CO. traditionally it was the entry point after Leaving Cert, some stayed at that level for life, many unskilled and moved their way up.

Just because graduates applied this time, doesn't make it a graduate level role. If someone has applied with a degree and is planning to accelerate their progression within the CS, the price to pay for that is to take a salary and do work which they may consider beneath their educational level for a while. If they want a graduate salary, and to do higher level work there are other entry points in the CS or the private sector.

Calina

doc22 wrote: »

Done the calculations around 60,000 gross as a public servant with 3 children you'd near qualify for FIS It's 37000 after tax, pension etc not gross

What does this "near" business mean? Either they qualify or they do not.

And to be perfectly honest, a family with three children would be far closer to the breadline than to riches on a salary of 60KE gross in Dublin.

What part is not getting through the heads of people here? Dublin especially, but a lot of the population of Ireland live in urban areas and the cost of living is high. Want to pay less money for accommodation? Cough it up in commuting instead. Commuting - particularly by public transport - is comparatively expensive in the country.

There is an element of can't win here.

Glenster

Donal55 wrote: »

This is a mad thread. The OP could have put it that anyone on €21k would struggle in Dublin.
Don't see why the hardship is confined to public servants, and I say that as a public servant.

I started my first job in Dublin on sub 20K, and if I hadn't progressed it's the pay I'd still be on.

And there was considerably more competition for that role than for CO posts.

Yeah the pay's not great, but its an entry level job.

noodler

Glenster wrote: »

I started my first job in Dublin on sub 20K, and if I hadn't progressed it's the pay I'd still be on.

And there was considerably more competition for that role than for CO posts.

Yeah the pay's not great, but its an entry level job.

Competition for CO posts is extreme these days. Over 21 thousand applicants last time apparently.

Technocentral

doc22 wrote:

Disability income supplement? If you're working full time earning a decent wage what income support would one need over a non Disabled person? What extra cost does one have?

Dublin Income Supplement of course.

Glenster

noodler wrote: »

Competition for CO posts is extreme these days. Over 21 thousand applicants last time apparently.

True. But the barriers to entry are lower.

AFAIK the only requirements for clerical officer are be over 16 and be able to use a computer.

We had to have a relevant degree, 2.1., certain number of leaving cert points, even to have our application considered.

Technocentral

Glenster wrote:

AFAIK the only requirements for clerical officer are be over 16 and be able to use a computer.

They wouldn't last in my department, half the week I'm doing EO work and technical work, plus emails and calls from people that need serious judgment and life experience to deal with, the job is unrecognisable from 40 years ago, the salaries need to reflect that.

Technocentral

Donal55 wrote:

This is a mad thread. The OP could have put it that anyone on €21k would struggle in Dublin. Don't see why the hardship is confined to public servants, and I say that as a public servant.

COs are needed to run the States institutions, a lot of responsibility in lots of CO jobs, not like working behind the counter in Spar.

noodler

Technocentral wrote: »

They wouldn't last in my department, half the week I'm doing EO work and technical work, plus emails and calls from people that need serious judgment and life experience to deal with, the job is unrecognisable from 40 years ago, the salaries need to reflect that.

I haven't found this to be true.

I don't expect a CO to admit that 22k is a fair starting salary though.

Technocentral

Where Im working it is.

noodler

Technocentral wrote: »

Where Im working it is.

Well, and I mean no offence, but you should try for EO then.

Your own perception of a CO's work in your department isn't a basis for increasing their salary.

I find the work COs do to be reasonably straightforward.

One could argue 38k at the top of their scale is well overpayment for their roles.

AndrewJRenko

Glenster wrote: »

What solves the problem is if no-one else is willing to do it for that wage, then the wage has to be raised to find people to do the job.

Or people will do the job for the wage, therefore there is no problem, just standard moaning.

That's a slightly short-term view. Economies go up and down, which affect the attractiveness or otherwise of roles like this. These roles are vital to the provision of many key public services. These are the people who will be dealing with public queries in a tax office or similar public service locations. It is important that the CS can recruit a steady supply of motivated staff who will remain in the roles for a reasonable period.

There is also a broader economic impact of this 'race to the bottom'. What we've seen in the UK and the USA and to a lesser extent in France is a result of the race to the bottom resulting in the erosion of blue collar and entry level posts. When people in these posts find themselves unable to meet basic human requirements, they turn to extreme leaders who promise the undeliverable. The increasing inequality in society has negative long term impacts.

Technocentral

noodler wrote:

Well, and I mean no offence, but you should try for EO then.

No offence taken, I still think the job now is completely different than 30 or 40 years ago, salary needs increasing.

doc22

Technocentral wrote: »

They wouldn't last in my department, half the week I'm doing EO work and technical work, plus emails and calls from people that need serious judgment and life experience to deal with, the job is unrecognisable from 40 years ago, the salaries need to reflect that.

There's many an EO doing CO work. The expansion of EOs,HEO,PO and AP roles in the early 2000s means there's more management grades then COs in the service.

Technocentral

doc22 wrote:

There's many an EO doing CO work. The expansion of EOs,HEO,PO and AP roles in the early 2000s means there's more management grades then COs in the service.

Yeah but they're getting paid for it!!

Glenster

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

That's a slightly short-term view. Economies go up and down, which affect the attractiveness or otherwise of roles like this. These roles are vital to the provision of many key public services. These are the people who will be dealing with public queries in a tax office or similar public service locations. It is important that the CS can recruit a steady supply of motivated staff who will remain in the roles for a reasonable period.

If 21000 people are applying for the roles they're not going to not have a shortage of staff anytime soon so I'm not sure that point is valid.

There is also a broader economic impact of this 'race to the bottom'. What we've seen in the UK and the USA and to a lesser extent in France is a result of the race to the bottom resulting in the erosion of blue collar and entry level posts. When people in these posts find themselves unable to meet basic human requirements, they turn to extreme leaders who promise the undeliverable. The increasing inequality in society has negative long term impacts.

race to the bottom is a bit of a buzzword. employees have always been paid the minimum that the employer can get away with paying them.

I believe the market pays you what it can get away with, or at least it should, and the government shouldn't skew the market.

Technocentral

Glenster wrote:

I believe the market pays you what it can get away with, or at least it should, and the government shouldn't skew the market.

The Government should set standards, not try to compete with cut throat private sector exploiters.

Cyrus

Technocentral wrote: »

The Government should set standards, not try to compete with cut throat private sector exploiters.

By overpaying people ??

gordongekko

Glenster wrote: »

I started my first job in Dublin on sub 20K, and if I hadn't progressed it's the pay I'd still be on.

And there was considerably more competition for that role than for CO posts.

Yeah the pay's not great, but its an entry level job.

More than 27000 applied for your role?

Glenster

Glenster wrote: »

True. But the barriers to entry are lower.

AFAIK the only requirements for clerical officer are be over 16 and be able to use a computer.

We had to have a relevant degree, 2.1., certain number of leaving cert points, even to have our application considered.

The requirements to become a clerical officer are effectively what the least qualified successful applicant held.

If that wasn't a degree or very relevant work experience in either of the two most recent open competitions I'd be extremely surprised.

Technocentral

Technocentral wrote: »

They wouldn't last in my department, half the week I'm doing EO work and technical work, plus emails and calls from people that need serious judgment and life experience to deal with, the job is unrecognisable from 40 years ago, the salaries need to reflect that.

Document it, prep it and tailor it to your next few interviews. You won't be long paid CO wages if you are correct.

In the meantime, and I'm not doubting you or anything, you're a CO working above and beyond to advance your prospects and that isn't remunerable.

Calina

Glenster wrote: »

I started my first job in Dublin on sub 20K, and if I hadn't progressed it's the pay I'd still be on.

And there was considerably more competition for that role than for CO posts.

Yeah the pay's not great, but its an entry level job.

My heart bleeds for you. My first job in Dublin was touching 10KE a year. There's such a thing as inflation and in accommodation matters, that has been quite high. If you started a starter job with a university degree on sub 20K in the last 10 years in my view you were underpaid.

The "that's the way it was when I started" is one of the lousiest arguments in favour of doing nothing. If we operated on that premise, junior doctors would be dead from over work, women would still be marriage barred. Just because it's the way things were done in the past is not a good reason - if it's a bad thing - to continue on in the future.

IN the meantime we would not have to do this if accommodation in Dublin was reasonably priced. Until it is, 21KE on any job starter or not is a road to penury.

Calina

Deleted User wrote: »

Document it, prep it and tailor it to your next few interviews. You won't be long paid CO wages if you are correct.

In the meantime, and I'm not doubting you or anything, you're a CO working above and beyond to advance your prospects and that isn't remunerable.

The Civil Service gets quite a lot of talent and experience for free given the profile of people who get through many of their competitions. To work your way up, however, you are at the mercy of waiting for internal and external promotion competitions. They do not necessarily turn up on a fixed schedule.