Clerical officer - Low pay - Dublin

09-04-2017 5:09pm

Calina wrote: »

The Civil Service gets quite a lot of talent and experience for free given the profile of people who get through many of their competitions. To work your way up, however, you are at the mercy of waiting for internal and external promotion competitions. They do not necessarily turn up on a fixed schedule.

True in the post recession period, absolutely not the case now.

Huge advancement opportunities, CO to AO and HEO in one go now quite common. And yes, down in part to the quality of new CO recruits but all the more reinforcement that the CO grade is a starter grade where you can choose to advance or not, and salaries reflective of this.

Calina · 09-04-2017 5:18pm

Deleted User wrote: »

True in the post recession period, absolutely not the case now.

Huge advancement opportunities, CO to AO and HEO in one go now quite common. And yes, down in part to the quality of new CO recruits but all the more reinforcement that the CO grade is a starter grade where you can choose to advance or not, and salaries reflective of this.

Are you honestly thinking that the current state of affairs where they have to make up for an 8 year hiring freeze is going to be the norm? Because I doubt it somehow.

09-04-2017 5:21pm

Calina wrote: »

Are you honestly thinking that the current state of affairs where they have to make up for an 8 year hiring freeze is going to be the norm? Because I doubt it somehow.

!

Cheeky enough response seeing as your case seems to be built on a temporary hiring freeze and the current state of a crazy property market!

Calina · 09-04-2017 5:30pm

Deleted User wrote: »

!

Cheeky enough response seeing as your case seems to be built on a temporary hiring freeze and the current state of a crazy property market!

My case - if you have been reading my posts at all - is not that the figures should be increased but that something needs to be done on the property side. Sort that out and you're not just fixing things for a few COs, but for pretty much most of the retail sector workers and people on minimum wage or in precarious sectors like Uber/Deliveroo. The property market in Ireland was insane for the 17 years I lived there. A little bit of equilibrium for 20-30 years wouldn't be a bad thing for the economy as a whole.

09-04-2017 5:39pm

Calina wrote: »

My case - if you have been reading my posts at all - is not that the figures should be increased but that something needs to be done on the property side. Sort that out and you're not just fixing things for a few COs, but for pretty much most of the retail sector workers and people on minimum wage or in precarious sectors like Uber/Deliveroo. The property market in Ireland was insane for the 17 years I lived there. A little bit of equilibrium for 20-30 years wouldn't be a bad thing for the economy as a whole.

If you'd been reading my posts at all you'd have seen that i responded to one of yours with pretty much this point myself.

We disagree on whether the CO salary is realistically liveable but agree on the solution to the main pressure on low earners in urban centres

Glenster · 09-04-2017 5:53pm

Calina wrote: »

My heart bleeds for you. My first job in Dublin was touching 10KE a year. There's such a thing as inflation and in accommodation matters, that has been quite high. If you started a starter job with a university degree on sub 20K in the last 10 years in my view you were underpaid.

It was fairly standard among everyone I knew.
this was 2010. I think it's 23k now for new entrants.

The "that's the way it was when I started" is one of the lousiest arguments in favour of doing nothing. If we operated on that premise, junior doctors would be dead from over work, women would still be marriage barred. Just because it's the way things were done in the past is not a good reason - if it's a bad thing - to continue on in the future.

I'm just saying that's the way it is. I didn't starve, 22 and 1500 a month, 500 on rent 500 on food and incidentals and 500 on booze and going out.

it'd be different if you had a family to support I suppose..... but people should think about that before they make life decisions like that.

IN the meantime we would not have to do this if accommodation in Dublin was reasonably priced. Until it is, 21KE on any job starter or not is a road to penury.

I'm positive you can still share within 5 miles of the city centre for 500 euros. (I was in the ifsc, but I'm sure those days are gone)

Glenster · 09-04-2017 5:56pm

the message to COs is simple.

the job is not amazingly paid.

If you think you can do better in the private sector please go for it, there are 27000 people who'd take your place.

Calina · 09-04-2017 5:58pm

Glenster wrote: »

It was fairly standard among everyone I knew.
this was 2010. I think it's 23k now for new entrants.

I'm just saying that's the way it is. I didn't starve, 22 and 1500 a month, 500 on rent 500 on food and incidentals and 500 on booze and going out.

it'd be different if you had a family to support I suppose..... but people should think about that before they make life decisions like that.

I'm positive you can still share within 5 miles of the city centre for 500 euros. (I was in the ifsc, but I'm sure those days are gone)

Actually, for a lot of grad salaries now it's around 27-30K. I've also made the point further up the thread somewhere that in 2014 at least MS had a grad salary in tech of 40KE.

23KE is low imo.

Assume that some people were unemployed and had families to support and actually had reasonable paying jobs before a recession came along and made a mess of everything. Anyone grown up will tell you that a period of unemployment can be hard to overcome when looking for a replacement job. The assumption that this only affects 22 year olds is wrong.

Calina · 09-04-2017 6:00pm

Glenster wrote: »

I'm positive you can still share within 5 miles of the city centre for 500 euros. (I was in the ifsc, but I'm sure those days are gone)

I lived on my own in Brussels on a starter salary. Because I could. And I could in Dublin when I graduated as well.

The simple fact is as a society you are putting up with paying more and more for less and less if you're a consumer, and paying less and less for more and more if you're an employer.

MouseTail · 09-04-2017 6:57pm

Calina wrote: »

Actually, for a lot of grad salaries now it's around 27-30K. I've also made the point further up the thread somewhere that in 2014 at least MS had a grad salary in tech of 40KE.

23KE is low imo
.

That comparison is worthless, CO is not a grad job or grade. No-one, including the Unions wanted to make it a grad job.

Glenster · 09-04-2017 9:01pm

Calina wrote: »

Actually, for a lot of grad salaries now it's around 27-30K. I've also made the point further up the thread somewhere that in 2014 at least MS had a grad salary in tech of 40KE.

23KE is low imo

tbh it's fairly standard for finance. we were all doing our acas/cfas/six sigmas aswell.

it's just different structures for different jobs. our salary doubled in three years, and our goal was to double it again in another 5 years.

And keep in mind that statistics for grad salaries don't take into account the 50% of graduates who get traditionally non-graduate jobs.

that said, facebook have at least 4 graduate jobs in ireland starting at 56k + 35k starting bonus + share options, but I think only one irish guy got one this year.

AndrewJRenko · 10-04-2017 12:26pm

Deleted User wrote: »

True in the post recession period, absolutely not the case now.

Huge advancement opportunities, CO to AO and HEO in one go now quite common. And yes, down in part to the quality of new CO recruits but all the more reinforcement that the CO grade is a starter grade where you can choose to advance or not, and salaries reflective of this.

Could you quantify 'huge' please? How many promotional posts are available?

doc22 wrote: »

Disability income supplement? If you're working full time earning a decent wage what income support would one need over a non Disabled person? What extra cost does one have?

In the region of €10k to €15k a year;

http://www.thejournal.ie/disabled-people-better-deal-collective-bargaining-power-life-2177577-Jun2015/

noodler · 10-04-2017 12:59pm

Calina wrote: »

23KE is low imo.

Appropriate imo.

10-04-2017 5:40pm

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Could you quantify 'huge' please? How many promotional posts are available?

I don't have access to figures, sorry.

Since 2014 I would think there's been internal, interdepartmental and open comps for EO and HEO every year in my workplace or via publicjobs. AO comps externally but on an annual basis too. EO and HEO ICT comps.

These are extensive panels, the last AO has recruited well over the hundred now the last I checked, so it's not just one job up for grabs each time.

So, hundreds of promotional opportunities each year for COs isn't an exaggeration.

That's discounting competitions for specific roles, but they suck in fairness.

AndrewJRenko · 10-04-2017 9:19pm

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't have access to figures, sorry.

Since 2014 I would think there's been internal, interdepartmental and open comps for EO and HEO every year in my workplace or via publicjobs. AO comps externally but on an annual basis too. EO and HEO ICT comps.

These are extensive panels, the last AO has recruited well over the hundred now the last I checked, so it's not just one job up for grabs each time.

So, hundreds of promotional opportunities each year for COs isn't an exaggeration.

That's discounting competitions for specific roles, but they suck in fairness.

So hundreds of opportunities for how-many thousand COs?

noodler · 10-04-2017 10:27pm

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

So hundreds of opportunities for how-many thousand COs?

Pretty good rate.

Annually as well.

Technocentral · 10-04-2017 10:33pm

I know COs trying for years who haven't progressed, anyways it doesn't tackle the poor pay for COs as is the OPs original point, the CO position itself has changed so much that the salary needs to reflect that. Saying get another job doesn't solve that underlying inequity.

noodler · 10-04-2017 10:47pm

Technocentral wrote: »

I know COs trying for years who haven't progressed, anyways it doesn't tackle the poor pay for COs as is the OPs original point, the CO position itself has changed so much that the salary needs to reflect that. Saying get another job doesn't solve that underlying inequity.

The pay is commensurate with the role.

Technocentral · 10-04-2017 10:48pm

noodler wrote:

The pay is commensurate with the role.

In your opinion only.

noodler · 10-04-2017 10:53pm

Technocentral wrote: »

In your opinion only.

Mine, the number of applicants, historically, whatever you like.

Its an entry level job occupied by people, in the main, with no third level qualifications.

Sure why not give everyone on the dole 300 a week, tough to live on 190.

Donal55 · 10-04-2017 11:15pm

noodler wrote: »

The pay is commensurate with the role.

Surely, if the role has changed for the entry level CO, :then it has also changed for those further up the food chain.

And those grades should also seek a commensurate pay increase.

AndrewJRenko · 10-04-2017 11:16pm

noodler wrote: »

Pretty good rate.

Annually as well.

Really, I've no idea how you can say 'pretty good rate' when you can't quote a number.

noodler · 10-04-2017 11:21pm

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Really, I've no idea how you can say 'pretty good rate' when you can't quote a number.

The poster mentioned hundreds of promotional opportunities, this makes sense with the AO and EO annual campaigns running annually.

Donal55 · 10-04-2017 11:46pm

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Really, I've no idea how you can say 'pretty good rate' when you can't quote a number.

Apart from the 'stickys', there are 10 threads on this forum and 6 of those threads are advertising COs of all grades.

I'd say its safe to say that its a 'pretty good rate.'

AndrewJRenko · 11-04-2017 9:41am

noodler wrote: »

The poster mentioned hundreds of promotional opportunities, this makes sense with the AO and EO annual campaigns running annually.

Donal55 wrote: »

Apart from the 'stickys', there are 10 threads on this forum and 6 of those threads are advertising COs of all grades.

I'd say its safe to say that its a 'pretty good rate.'

Hundreds of vacancies for how many existing COs?

Technocentral · 11-04-2017 10:23am

noodler wrote:

Sure why not give everyone on the dole 300 a week, tough to live on 190.

They aren't working, that's why not!!

noodler · 11-04-2017 10:28am

Technocentral wrote: »

They aren't working, that's why not!!

Right, so your charity begins and ends with COs.

Its an entry level position, the pay is commensurate with the role, there is plenty of demand at that wage and after a few years is even overpaid relative to the private sector according to the CSO analysis done in March.

Technocentral · 11-04-2017 10:56am

noodler wrote:

Right, so your charity begins and ends with COs.

Firstly, the topic is CO salaries, secondly I know the modern CO role I don't know every other job in Ireland that's how I can comment on salary deficiency and thirdly no one in their right mind would think that people not working should get paid almost as much as someone with a very responsible job.

The_Conductor · 11-04-2017 11:57am

noodler wrote: »

Its an entry level job occupied by people, in the main, with no third level qualifications.

Almost 80% of recent COs do have third level qualifications- it may not be a requirement for the role- but they do hold them...... Its not accurate to suggest they don't.

noodler · 11-04-2017 12:08pm

The_Conductor wrote: »

Almost 80% of recent COs do have third level qualifications- it may not be a requirement for the role- but they do hold them...... Its not accurate to suggest they don't.

I said "in the main".

I have no reason to believe recent recruitment has impacted on the total level to the extent where that does not hold true.

Not really the relevant point anyway as it is not required.

Clerical officer - Low pay - Dublin

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